Cigars that are getting the cut..

[Jimmy2]

I must say its a good fight you gents are putting up but in my view most will still be cut and it has nothing to do with them being small or larger gauge cigars.

Over all i think no matter how good these cigars are flavor wise they just dont sell large amounts yearly in which it make sense to cut them.

Also i think as far as the small ring cigars go what really has killed them in the long run is them being plugged which for the buyer over all is a waste of hard earned money.And the economy the way its been lately has made an impact on some of these cigar being cut.

And really how many boxes have you bought of the cigars being cut with newer box codes 07 to present because thats what they are looking at over all.

One good thing you have to look at is they will becoming out with newer cigars maybe small/big ring gauges like a RA beli,RA CG,Partagas CG ,Bolivar Lancero or even and RA one !! brands that can move big numbers...Maybe they are seeing that the RR program has been a BIG Success and incorporate some of those sizes into Habanos S.A. regular portfolio.

I for one understand why some of you are in a uproar but i am not afraid of change that can make CC even better overall for all of us..The only failure i see is the Monte Open and i think this line will be cut sooner than we think...

[El Presidente]

Nothing like an open wound and some salt.

[neal875]

I must say its a good fight you gents are putting up but in my view most will still be cut and it has nothing to do with them being small or larger gauge cigars.

Over all i think no matter how good these cigars are flavor wise they just dont sell large amounts yearly in which it make sense to cut them.

Also i think as far as the small ring cigars go what really has killed them in the long run is them being plugged which for the buyer over all is a waste of hard earned money.And the economy the way its been lately has made an impact on some of these cigar being cut.

And really how many boxes have you bought of the cigars being cut with newer box codes 07 to present because thats what they are looking at over all.

One good thing you have to look at is they will becoming out with newer cigars maybe small/big ring gauges like a RA beli,RA CG,Partagas CG ,Bolivar Lancero or even and RA one !! brands that can move big numbers...Maybe they are seeing that the RR program has been a BIG Success and incorporate some of those sizes into Habanos S.A. regular portfolio.

I for one understand why some of you are in a uproar but i am not afraid of change that can make CC even better overall for all of us..The only failure i see is the Monte Open and i think this line will be cut sooner than we think...

Completely correct. It's all about the soil and the BUSINESS.

[Jimmy2]

I am with you guys but i would also like to see some newer sizes with some of the classic brands also this does not mean they will not come out with newer smaller ring gauge cigars ...

[El Presidente]

Completely correct. It's all about the soil and the BUSINESS.

"Goodwill" is also part of the business mix.

Additional cost to change production to every 2-3 years = 0

Result = global sell out of 5000 boxes

Result = Goodwill towards Habanos.

Compare that to the current situation.

[anacostiakat]

Jimmy2, The Groove Killah!

[El Presidente]

I am with you guys but i would also like to see some newer sizes with some of the classic brands also this does not mean they will not come out with newer smaller ring gauge cigars ...

The only new small ring gauge cigar coming is the R&J Julieta aimed at "Women". We are deling with morons Jimmy. I know plenty of women who smoke cigars and each is disgusted that they are being "given" a ladies smoke. They want to shove it where the sun don't shine.

Behike's Jimmy...Behike's. $35-$40 a piece Jawbreakers..that is where the market is mate...high ROI.

[Jimmy2]

Cant wait for them i think some of the small gauge fans might like the ladies smokes than..LOL

[neal875]

"Goodwill" is also part of the business mix.

Additional cost to change production to every 2-3 years = 0

Result = global sell out of 5000 boxes

Result = Goodwill towards Habanos.

Compare that to the current situation.

I think that this is a solid business proposition that could result in the cancellation of a couple of the deletions. If goodwill is in play, that is. This suggestion was made early on in this dialog and makes nothing but sense for items like the Connies and the two Punch lines. I think these are the most likely to be saved because they are part of popular and successful brands that Habanos is not contemplating eliminating. The same is less likely for the Diplomatico and RG brands which seems to be getting less and less support overall.

Rob: I was wondering if you know through your many connections around the world if there are any similar organized efforts of this kind from other dealers, distributors or industry press? I've looked as best I can but cannot find any.

[Colt45]

The only new small ring gauge cigar coming is the R&J Julieta aimed at "Women".

Isn't this going to be one of the highlights of the upcoming festival?

I fully understand that many of these cigars can (and should) be saved, production simply reduced, etc, but to play devil's advocate for conversation's sake -

I'm Manuel Garcia. I receive all these letters and emails. I send a reply to each writer:

Thank you for your interest in saving these historic Habanos staples. On a weekly / monthly / yearly basis, how many boxes of each may I put you down for?

[Jimmy2]

I think you will need at least a thousand letters for them to even listen they want to sell thousands of boxes i would think of each cigar to keep them around..

[El Presidente]

Isn't this going to be one of the highlights of the upcoming festival?

I fully understand that many of these cigars can (and should) be saved, production simply reduced, etc, but to play devil's advocate for conversation's sake -

I'm Manuel Garcia. I receive all these letters and emails. I send a reply to each writer:

Thank you for your interest in saving these historic Habanos staples. On a weekly / monthly / yearly basis, how many boxes of each may I put you down for?

The problem we have with that line of thought Colt is that on the next line of cuts (based on sales) would be the following

1 Bolivar Corona Extra

2. Upmann No 2

3 Diplomatico Number 2

3. SLR Serie A

4 SLR Regio

5 All Fonseca

ala the great public servant "Sir Humphrey" of "Yes Minister"......Habanos may truly believe that producing 50 cigars in the end would be the most efficient expenditure of resources to enable the highest return on investment.

[Jimmy2]

Upmann No 2 would be the biggest loss out of all the cigars listed thats one that would be a big mistake !!!

But again i can see if they do because i guess they dont sell alot overall what a shame..

[El Presidente]

Isn't this going to be one of the highlights of the upcoming festival?

And a special luanch night no less! Unfortunately we have a party at our place that night

[anacostiakat]

The problem we have with that line of thought Colt is that on the next line of cuts (based on sales) would be the following

1 Bolivar Corona Extra

2. Upmann No 2

3 Diplomatico Number 2

3. SLR Serie A

4 SLR Regio

5 All Fonseca

ala the great public servant "Sir Humphrey" of "Yes Minister"......Habanos may truly believe that producing 50 cigars in the end would be the most efficient expenditure of resources to enable the highest return on investment.

Oh Crap. I am stocking up on the Upmanns and the SLR Serie A then. Screw this....

[Mr Peales]

One good thing you have to look at is they will becoming out with newer cigars maybe small/big ring gauges like a RA beli,RA CG,Partagas CG ,Bolivar Lancero or even and RA one !! brands that can move big numbers...Maybe they are seeing that the RR program has been a BIG Success and incorporate some of those sizes into Habanos S.A. regular portfolio.

I wish I had your optimism Jimmy.

[Colt45]

The problem we have with that line of thought Colt is that on the next line of cuts (based on sales) would be the following

1 Bolivar Corona Extra

2. Upmann No 2

3 Diplomatico Number 2

3. SLR Serie A

4 SLR Regio

5 All Fonseca

ala the great public servant "Sir Humphrey" of "Yes Minister"......Habanos may truly believe that producing 50 cigars in the end would be the most efficient expenditure of resources to enable the highest return on investment.

Fully understood - when I ask how many boxes, I'm asking the mirror first. As I mentioned in another thread, this line of thinking seems to prevail

with Imperial as well, which doesn't bode well.

And a special luanch night no less! Unfortunately we have a party at our place that night

For me, this illustrates even more how out of touch the decision makers seem to be.

[El Presidente]

Colt I agree that they are delusional.

This whole fight is not about 6 great cigars being cut in 2010. The immediate fight is about the continued existance of Fonseca, Sancho Panza, El Rey Del Mundo , La Gloria Cubana, Diplomatico, Saint Luis Rey, Juan Lopez, Ramon Allones.

As each falls the next gets pushed to the precipice. As another cigar gets cut from the lineup of that Marque that Marque gets closer to becoming unfeasible .....and in the end is cut.

HSA has a mixed report card.

Siglo VI = Win

Partagas P2 = Win

LE to 2006 = Win

RR to 2008 = Win

Mag 50 = Win

Monte Edmundo = Win

Trinidad Robusto T =Win

Monte Petit Edmundo = Neutral

HDM Peit Robusto = Neutral

Cohiba Maduro 5 Genios =Neutral

Cohiba Maduro 5 Secretos = Neutral

Cohiba maduro 5 Magicos =Fail

R&J Belicosos = Fail

HDM Especial = Fail

Montecristo Petit Edmundo = Fail

Bolivar Gold Medal = Fail

LE Post 2006= Fail

Putting bands on cabinet cigars = fail

Putting Red band on R&J Churchill = Fail

Permitting Regional Release Over Saturation = Fail

Montecristo Open Concept = fail

Public Relations = Fail

Prosecuting LE Fakes being produced in Cuba = Fail

[jacksfull]

Of the eight brands mentioned possibly facing the chopping block, only two of them are brands that Altadis owns the US trademark for. Might that have some significance?

I'm not so blind as to imagine that their eye toward a future post-embargo US market for CC's is the only concern (nor even the primary one), but it may play some small part in these sorts of decisions. I know there is a great wide world outside of my own country, but the US is a huge consumer market and it would be quite a coup for Altadis to just eliminate CC brands it doesn't control trademarks for in the US... as long as it does not have too heavy a price to pay in the world market. They're not crazy enough to suggest eliminating Cohiba just because they don't own the rights in the US.

Altadis's invloment may also have some influence on the individual cigar discontinuations. Just look at their portfolio of NC brands... Edicion Limitada this and Reserve that. They do know a thing or two about marketing, about creating mystique, and about driving sales through fear of loss (get 'em now before they're gone forever!). I'd be betting on a lot more LE's and RE's to "replace" those going by the wayside. What do you think? Possible?

[Colt45]

This whole fight is not about 6 great cigars being cut in 2010. The immediate fight is about the continued existance of Fonseca, Sancho Panza, El Rey Del Mundo , La Gloria Cubana, Diplomatico, Saint Luis Rey, Juan Lopez, Ramon Allones.

So, it would seem the bean counters are making these decisions, and seem to be more concerned with investors and bottom line than producing a

quality product (sounds an awful lot like the auto industry).

There are so many ways this discussion can go, and it would be easier at a round table (Wazza, if you read this, square is OK too my stumpy friend).

But using the much maligned Montecristo Open as an example, how do they justify bringing this cigar online (and keeping it online if it has indeed failed)

and at the same time, cutting the Partagas Serie Du Connaisseur line?

I understand bringing out new products, but do they really expect the Open series to outsell the SdC line? Are they hoping that by using the Open to

bring in new smokers, that it will translate into sales of the more traditional cigars? And which ones - what will be left? I'm hesitant to bring up the

historical aspects of the Havana cigar, as I am not well versed - but it does seem to have been forsaken.

Like I said, I think I've too many questions to really make much sense here. And so it goes - I once again can only hope for competition to open up

some time in the near future. Maybe I'll try a Tatuaje Cazadores.....

[Jimmy2]

Tatuaje Cazadores dont do it Colt they are just as bad as the Monte Open !!!

[bunburyist]

This whole fight is not about 6 great cigars being cut in 2010. The immediate fight is about the continued existance of Fonseca, Sancho Panza, El Rey Del Mundo , La Gloria Cubana, Diplomatico, Saint Luis Rey, Juan Lopez, Ramon Allones.

You can't be serious.....?

Fonseca and Sancho Panza I can understand but Ramon Allones? SLR? Juan Lopez? They make some of the best cigars in the habanos line up imo.

Are sales really that skewed? I'd love to see a breakdown of sales by marque worldwide. I think it has been mentioned that Montecristo is the biggest seller. I'm guessing with Cohiba, Partagas, Punch and Upmann not far behind?

And this might be a stupid point but - presumably Montecristo can only make Montecristo style cigars with a certain blend of certain tobacco. By canning something like Ramon Allones, surely the tobacco being used for that mark will end up in a Monte later down the line, no? Thus we end up with wildly varying flavour profiles within one brand.

I understand dropping unprofitable cigars and even whole brands like Fonseca but if we end up with just 5 or so of the big brands....that won't work surely?

It's just bizarre.

[tandblov]

Neal,

I know you think that they are just some serious business genius going on at Habanos SA.

I think you are right.

Their business strategy is quite perfect. The fewer cigars they produce, the less amount of investment they have to put in. Hence, for the 10 cigars you will "ALLOWED" to choose from in the future, there will be a higher return on investment. Heck, evermind the 10, just make one cigar that everyone has to choose if they want the "Mystique" of the cuban cigar "experience".

Clearly, the only proper business decision would be to stop producing cigars all together. Afterall, being in business costs money!! I can totally see why they are making these moves.

(being sarcastic)...

[Jesuscookies]

I understand dropping unprofitable cigars and even whole brands like Fonseca but if we end up with just 5 or so of the big brands....that won't work surely?

It's just bizarre.

Sometimes even this is a bad idea. Especially, if you are looking at it from a capitalist point of view. Even dogs generate revenue. If they are going to do away with a losing line they need something to fill the revenue gap. Without it, they will continue to, as Rob has already stated, build the snowball.

Personally, I do not smoke much of what is up for elimination this year, but sooner or later they will make it to my brand/line. If they continue to cut, without also looking at how to add, or do so poorly as they have done with the Open line than surely we will all be screwed in the end.

[gfoster]

One of the theories I've seen is that they are prepping for entry into the US market. If that's the case, and the Open is their "gateway" into the market, they are really misreading the American cigar smoker. The American cigar smoker is used to smoking NC's which are in general quite a bit *stronger* than the CC's I've tried thus far. Switching them to a mild "entry" smoke isn't going to work at all and it might backfire on them.

I can just see someone who's used to smoking Tatuajes or Cains lighting up an Open and going "Huh? WTF is this?"

-- Gary F.