Aged vs Old

[rcsims]

I am still new to the cigar world, having only been in the hobby for about 6 months. I am thoroughly enjoying experimenting with the vast variety of CCs that are available. It has been a remarkable experience to sample the different flavors that are unique to the CCs.

My question has to due with aging. In the Classic Posts section, I read the dialogue from Ken and Tampa about taste vs flavor and the chemistry associated with this and the aging process. I am still not sure what I should expect from an aged cigar. I am assuming that it should still retain its original flavors, however the transition in flavors should be more smooth.

The reason that I ask is that I recently received a couple of boxes (from a European competitor, before I found this site). These items were on a big promotional discount. Once they were received, I was surprised to see that the boxes were dated from 2000 (specifics below). Upon smoking one from each box, I was dissapointed in that the CC flavors that I am accustomed to, were virtually non-existant. To me, they just tasted "old" or maybe like old shoe leather, for lack of a better description. I have not had a young cigar from these vitolas, so I don't have a basis of comparison. Also, I am sending a couple of cigars to another member on this forum for a more experienced opinion.

Visually, the products look like what I would expect from something of that age. The boxes (dress boxes) show some age, but not abuse. There is a plume dusting on the cigars.

Is this a characteristic of an aged cigar? Are my tastebuds too inexperienced to get the most out of these cigars? Are the cigars too old or improperly stored?

Punch Churchill TEN 00ES (Jun 00)

SLR Churchill ??? LL00 (Nov 00) (can't read the factory code, faded)

I look forward to hearing any comments that you may have.

Thank you,

Rob

[dochowl]

Hey Rob...

Easy answer is that you may have just gotten some not so good cigars. I hate to say it, but just about everything I have smoked from 2000 and 2001 has been pretty dull. My guess is that these cigars weren't all that good when they were new. And adding 8 years of age on a clunker of a cigar often times just leads to an old clunker of a clgar.

Keep on smokin...

--Doc

[anacostiakat]

Wow. Well here is some info.

The years 99 & 2000 are suspect to begin with. They are a crap shoot. You can get some good stuff and a lot of crap. So happens I have been pretty lucky but I too have gotten boxes with those codes unexpectantly in the past.

Give them some more time and maybe they will be better. But frankly if they were stored improperly they may not be recoverable.

[mash]

The other issue with buying cigars of that era was how well they have been stored over the previous 9 years. In many cases, the answer is not well. If that is the case, they will taste dull. Buy some relatively fresh smokes and age them yourself if you have the patience, smoke one every now and again. Then you can really judge what aging does to a cigar.

[Tampa1257]

Some good advice has been stated here. Have you allowed the cigars to stabilize in your humidor for at least 30 days? What RH% do you maintain your humidor at? Another issue is the size cigars are typically known for being Mild to at best case Medium bodied and one would need a discerning palate to taste all the suddle flavors.

If you are looking for an "In Your Face" smoking experience, I would just place those cigars down for a nap and get some Partagas Serie D No.4's, Bolivar Royal Coronas and some Ramon Allones Specially Selected (RASS) that are fairly young and sample those, then once your palate knows what a "Bold" young cigar smokes like, then smoke one of the Punch Churchill's or SLR Churchill's.

Tampa

[riderpride]

That time period is pretty hit-and-miss. A lot of these sticks didn't sell originally because people were scared as a result of poor construction, though some may have been passed by because they're fugly. A friend of mine gambled on this same deal (Punch Churchill) and ended up with the fugly ones; the taste and draw were suprisingly good.

peace

[Colt45]

The guys have already summed it up quite well - they may have been on the bland side to begin with, time frame, storage, etc. But to talk just a little

about what a properly aged cigar can be (if it was a good cigar to begin with), I'll use this example:

This past Sunday I smoked an '00 H. Upmann Sir Winston. This box has had some unsmokeably tight draws, but the cigars with acceptable draws have

been excellent. Sunday's sample was one of the good ones - sublime. Richness, coffee with a touch of cream, hints of chocolate, and a light overlay of

cherry fruit, smooth and balanced. I don't know how they tasted upon release, but I have no doubt they've lost little or nothing, and perhaps have even

gained over time. Obviously there is no way of knowing for sure beforehand how or if a cigar will benefit with age.

If vintage was not made absolutely clear to you in the promotion, you can always contact the merchant and voice your concerns.

[Ken Gargett]

shared some 01 sancho panza corona's with a mate last night. lovely honey and caramel notes. terrific cigar but this entire box has been a joy.

but it does seem those years are a little dodgy and you can get some crap, especially if stored poorly.

[MontrealRon]

Hi, Rob -

Your box of SLR's, code LLOO, is from Nov.'99.

I also went in for some of those promotion deals from the same source, at 60% discount.

Two boxes each of Series A, Hoyo des Dieux, and Partagas de Partagas #1.

I don't know the codes, as I had them shipped without bands or boxes,

trying to minimize the import taxes,

but was told they were from '99-2000.

I was also honestly told that quality was not up to recent standards,

both as to taste and construction,

which is why they were being dumped so cheaply.

As I have been a client for over 5 years,

I can tell you that they are honest and that all their merchandise is authentic.

However, you will not get the same attention to detail and quality control that the Czar offers.

Keep in mind as well that their cigars are shipped very humid,

and normally take as much as 2-3 months to properly stabilize.

My smokes were, as expected, a rather mixed bag.

The Hoyos have been really nice. Decent construction and good taste.

The Series A's have varied between mediocre and horrible,

but the last couple have been better.

The Partis, at least the first bundle (box), have mostly been too tight,

though extended dryboxing helps.

IMHO, there were some brilliant cigars from the year 2000, especially the LE's,

but they are mostly vanished from the market.

Most of what is still available is whatever could not be sold.

Thick, hard to burn wrappers, plugged cigars, inferior fillers abound.

Much of the later '99 production has similar problems.

'01s, on the other hand, I have found to be generally excellent, '02s as well.

So, sock those boxes away for a couple more months at 65% RH,

and I think you will find that they are well worth what you paid for them.

There are other merchants out there who are selling the same stuff as "vintage" cigars,

often at prices even higher than current releases!

Caveat emptor!

[PigFish]

Who said you get what you pay for?

Shopping for vintage cigars as well as bargain cigars is not in my opinion a neophytes game. I have had wonderful cigars from the late 90's to the early 00's. The key is knowing what was left because it was unpopular from what was left because it was plugged or just crap. And for the record... there is no magic list. Buying off the bargain rack anyone can get stung.

There are people who buy up defunct retailers stock or other gray market goods and with the price drop comes a corresponding risk. There are also a few European vendors who's business' get left with numbers of aged cigars, cigars that they have had for years as a result of them being unpopular. There is often a difference in how those cigars are treated and stored.

Buying from a reputable, forthright vendor is the best advice I can give to a neophyte. Spend your money wisely and you can find bargains and sales on quality cigars from people who will stand behind what they sell you. I know of such a man.

If you come close I will whisper his name! "ROB AYALA." I call him Bwana... and other less endearing names!

Did I just say that? Good luck. - Piggy

[ins]

I can guess your european source.

Their vintage stock is all but gone now, and I suspect only the duds are left - not to mention that the slr churchills (less so the punch) in their stock were never good, to begin with.

the slr serie A and the hdm du roi/dauphin, also mentioned in the thread, were pot luck: half were good, half were plugged

Pity you did not do your shopping year ago. the lusis, 8-9-8, coronas doples and hdm churchill were all wonderful. So were the monte A (never tried them, but many friends did)

[bassman]

Beside being from "iffy" years, a lot of that discount stuff was poorly stored. It's dried out & pretty flavorless. When buying older cigars it very important to know how well your vendor has stored these cigars. I recently bought 2 boxes of 97 SLR Serie A. Not cheap, but not really expensive either. Perfectly stored & quite tasty to smoke.

[rcsims]

Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions. When I placed the order, I hadn't yet stumbled on this site. I never suspected that this issue would come up. Guess I will ask questions next time, or better yet, stick to Czar!

I think I will mostly chalk this one up to a learning experience. I will let them settle for a while and give them another try. If nothing else, they can be used for packing material.

[rcsims]

I thought I would post an update. Thanks, again, for the suggestions. I took the cigars out of their boxes and placed them in a desktop humidor. About 2 weeks later, I opened the humidor to check the humidity. Temp and humidity were good at 70F and 66%. The first thing that I noticed was that the musky odor was no longer present. The aroma was very pleasant, so I decided to fire one up.

It was an excellent surprise! Very smooth. Flavors of chocolate, earth, and wood. Generous smoke volume and a good burn. During those 2 weeks, the cigars transformed from a dirty sock to a very pleasant experience. I can't wait to see what a little more time will do for them!

[Ken Gargett]

I thought I would post an update. Thanks, again, for the suggestions. I took the cigars out of their boxes and placed them in a desktop humidor. About 2 weeks later, I opened the humidor to check the humidity. Temp and humidity were good at 70F and 66%. The first thing that I noticed was that the musky odor was no longer present. The aroma was very pleasant, so I decided to fire one up.

It was an excellent surprise! Very smooth. Flavors of chocolate, earth, and wood. Generous smoke volume and a good burn. During those 2 weeks, the cigars transformed from a dirty sock to a very pleasant experience. I can't wait to see what a little more time will do for them!

nice when that happens. let us know if that is how they all go or if there are variations.

[joeypots]

A month of stabilization rest never hurt a box of cigars that has traveled.