Building an Affordable Electronic Humidor.

[PigFish]

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[hdryder]

I just bought a wine cooler & wasnt to sure how I was goint to go about turning it into a humidor. This is a great read with plenty of detail. I'm sure it will help. Thanks

[Artur]

Thank you for the post. Really intersting and nice idea.

[scottm12]

I purchased a simple 6 bottle thermo-electic wine fridge from amazon for around a 100 bucks. Pulled out the racks and cleaned it out good with baking soda and distilled water. Then kept the baking soda container in for a couple of days to get all the plastic smell out. I purchased 3 cedar trays and season them, they fit perfectly where the old metal wine racks were. I have 2 tubes of drymistat cigar gel and 1 4 ounce gel container. It stays right at 66 degrees F and 71% humidity. And it will hold about 20o cigars. Great for the warm months, keeps everything from getting too warm.

[SeeGar]

Facinating, and very well written doco.

Looking at the effort and expense, I see the main benefits of this approach are:

- Relatively low maintenance

- Temperature control

- Not too ugly

Living in Blighty I don't have to worry about temperature much. I use marine coolers with heartfelt beads and a recycled computer fan on a mains timer. Advantages:

- Super cheap

- Scales up easily (one mains timer for all coolers)

- Nothing to break or collect mould

- Absorbs moisture, as well as releasing it.

Don't get me wrong, I program microcontollers and love all that geeky stuff, but it's hard to beat silica beads.

[dafrey23]

This is an awesome guide. As someone who works in design for HVAC systems for sensitive spaces (clean rooms, hospitals, pharmaceuticals), this stuff makes me excited.

Regarding over humidification... You could add a small electric heater and some more controls to this thing and create a dehumidification cycle. You could use your cooling to condense moisture out of the air and then reheat that air so you don't change the temperature of the space. Then you'd end up with three control loops in the device (cooling, humidification, dehumidification).

If you wanted to add a fourth loop (heating) you could fully control temperature and humidity no matter the outside environment. Of course you've now taken a $500 project and made it a $750 project, but if that's what you need it's possible.

[PigFish]

This is an awesome guide. As someone who works in design for HVAC systems for sensitive spaces (clean rooms, hospitals, pharmaceuticals), this stuff makes me excited.

Regarding over humidification... You could add a small electric heater and some more controls to this thing and create a dehumidification cycle. You could use your cooling to condense moisture out of the air and then reheat that air so you don't change the temperature of the space. Then you'd end up with three control loops in the device (cooling, humidification, dehumidification).

If you wanted to add a fourth loop (heating) you could fully control temperature and humidity no matter the outside environment. Of course you've now taken a $500 project and made it a $750 project, but if that's what you need it's possible.

Thanks mate!

This is crude to what I do now. I am way ahead of you!!!

Controls are a real issue as most out of the box items do not allow you to tinker with their activation logic. I therefore have my own controls made for me now. The controller that I used here, well, I would not even consider it an option today! While I can always find ways to add functions to the controls, and make them more complex and more expensive they have to remain somewhat simple so that the consumer can still make sense out of them and not have to spend a long time learning them as if it was a new computer OS. They must also remain affordable.

The costs on this system has gone up, but so has the performance. Performance is really the defining factor, at least to me.

Small, sealed micro climates are not really easy to design! It is one thing to design something that works only in one type of climate. Your typical humidor assumes a constant climate. I design systems around the real world. This tutorial project was designed to work in a higher temp, lower humidity macro climate. The real challenge is to make a system that adapts to varying macro climates (within reason) and moves effortlessly from one macro climate to another.

The other factor is cost. The cost of my systems have gone up dramatically. This is largely due to the complexity linked to the additional performance. The guy who owns an ice chest in a constant temperature is not going to be impressed! Of course the guy who won't invest more than 20 bucks for a cheap hygrometer is not likely to actually know how he is storing cigars anyway! In the cigar storage world, ignorance is bliss. But the guy who does not have such a climate, and has to invest a lot of energy each month to condition his whole home, or even an entire room to keep his cigars as he likes should really be impressed. The choice for some of us is simple. With the cost of energy constantly on the rise you can either guess what your cigars are experiencing and write big checks to the guys at the power company, or you can take control away from the environment and empower yourself.

Take a look at this chart. This is one of my systems ranging from the cool of the night in my lab, about 64dF to the warmth of the day at 74dF. The red line is the shop temperature.

The cool climate performance is a process of dehydration and gentle heating. This system defines total performance and that includes controlling all aspects of climate; temperature high and low, humidity high and low.

Thanks for responding... -Piggy

[CUBANO]

Ray,

What is the blue and black line? humidy and dew point?

[PigFish]

Ray,

What is the blue and black line? humidy and dew point?

If you are talking the above chart, what you are looking at are two internal measurements, rH and temperature (˚F) and one external temperature (the macro environment), that happens to be the lab.

The example displays the "consummate" humidor as described in the post.

The black line is the temperature inside the humidor compared to the ambient (red line) of the temperature of the lab. rH for the interior is reflected in the blue line. I only posted the interior rH due to the fact that it really is all that matters. The humidors I build are sealed, and not only hydrate (produce water vapor) but dehydrate (remove water vapor) making the fact that you live in an area, wet or dry, irrelevant.

I tend to get a lot of inquires and therefore customers from Florida. Presumably because no one else in my field demonstrates the ability to keep their humidors dry in a wet environment. While others dabble with the idea, they (mostly) rely on the macro environment to 'drive' their humidors. My humidors are not reliant on external drivers. I have no such dependence in a complete 4 variable, consummate solution. Many people do not think that they require heating, I do offer the ability to exclude the feature, as a cost saving measure removing one of the controls on the "low temperature" variable.

Here are some new and recent charts for you.

Here is the lab over the past couple of days. Black is temp, blue rH.

Here is the humidor in that location, currently it houses about 12 sensors and about 45 boxes of cigars.

Here the humidor is black is temp and blue is rH.

Lastly is the combined chart. The chart uses the same linear scale for all the measurments and this is where they stack up without me having moved them around or scaled them for emphasis.

Green on the bottom is the ambient rH in the Lab. Blue is the rH in the humidor. Black is the temp in the humidor. Red is the temp in the lab.

You will notice that my humidor does not actually roll over to cooling until the temp in the ambient moves to about 75-76 in this example. And while I don't recommend the practice, I have tested this design in temperature well into the 80's!

I have reduced fluctuations in my humidors down to a matter of "white noise."

Thanks for the inquiry!

-Ray

[CUBANO]

Ray,

Thanks for the reply, and the information on your system that is very impressive.

[free85]

Ray you're nothing if not taking a scientific approach! Outstanding effort and walk through. It does that whole "teach a man to fish" thing (and gets him asking a few questions along the way).

[CigarMike]

Thank you! This is absolutely perfection!

[PigFish]

Well... they have come a long way since this. By todays standard, mine, this humidor does not work... -LOL

I think it provides the basis in theory for building a correct humidor and talks a lot of process so I think it is important for people to understand what goes into making one of these work. If you looked at one of my designs today, the concept is the same, the humidor works totally differently. Unfortunately it is also far more complex.

My systems now are what I call consummate solutions.

Here is a log pulled out of January 2015 where the temps in the lab were about 66˚F. The system has rolled over into a heating mode where it is controlling a low temperature problem verses a high temperature one.

In either case, swings in temperature affect your cigar just as swings in rH. That effect adds up to change the moisture content of your cigar and your smoking experience.

While you will never likely be able to afford a cave, or a water bath temperature controlled situation that your wife will accept, this comes damn close to perfection for a piece that is presentable and will sit in the corner of a room.

Cheers!

[jimsta10]

Hi Ray,

nice write up. your document has made me thinking...i do have a few questions to ask.

1. I'm thinking of getting a Dual Digital Temperature and Humidity Controller with Sensor to control the compressor (temp) and RH. should i separate and user two separate controllers?

2. can you please explain or show some more pics regarding the water from the condensation --> hose? are you returning the water back into the wineador?

3. have you have any modifications since?

cheers

[Ubergosupro69]

Ray you're nothing if not taking a scientific approach! Outstanding effort and walk through. It does that whole "teach a man to fish" thing (and gets him asking a few questions along the way).

Teach a man to PigFish and he'll smoke fine cigars for the rest of his life!

[PigFish]

Teach a man to PigFish and he'll smoke fine cigars for the rest of his life!

... cheers!

There are so many aspects to that comment that I find flattering, I am speechless! Me, speechless, not an easy task!!! -Ray

[PigFish]

Hi Ray,

nice write up. your document has made me thinking...i do have a few questions to ask.

1. I'm thinking of getting a Dual Digital Temperature and Humidity Controller with Sensor to control the compressor (temp) and RH. should i separate and user two separate controllers?

2. can you please explain or show some more pics regarding the water from the condensation --> hose? are you returning the water back into the wineador?

3. have you have any modifications since?

cheers

The number of the controllers is not really the issue. Of course it could be an issue of space and heat. Each controller takes space and causes heat. Each one will take wiring and logistics to make it work. That is also an issue depending on what you want to do and where you want to place a controller.

I typically put my controller inside my projects. In best practice, they really should go outside but I don't make the encloses (the wine coolers) that I convert, so I go with the flow of predominant design.

Predominant design comes from the years of people making these products before me. It does not make them best, just established. This comes from the days that folks put the sensor in the controller housing. This project used such a product. I don't use these products any more, they are not well suited to my means or needs as they are 'groovy' but primitive controllers.

This is one of my controllers, two of them actually.

What a controller looks like is not really very important to me either. I try to dress mine up a bit but that is a cosmetic thing. What they do, and how they do it IS IMPORTANT TO ME.

(SORRY HIT THE ADD POST BUTTON BEFORE FINISHING)

The selection of a controller is based on what you need to do and certainly some about what you know about them and how they work. A controller can be as simple as a timer with a switch attached, or as complex as a programmed computer that makes an analysis of a bar chart before it places a futures contract trade... The parameters are endless.

Ultimately I wanted something compact, not totally out of the realm of understanding for my customers, flexible, high capacity (ability to control many things) and somewhat affordable. I had to commission (custom configure) a controls maker to make what I wanted and now sell.

Collecting condensate is an issue that requires a lot of thought and a lot of potential customization. Each cooler design will require different ideas and engineering. Therefore it is not best for me to describe something that you don't have. It is best for me to look at what you have and suggest ideas to suit you, not me! My history does not really help you.

For example. Drip assemblies can be easy or not depending on the cooler. This is a back and drip tray assembly that I engineered and made for a friend in Australia.

Here is is mocked up in CAD.

Since I designed this system thousands of miles away from my shop, it had issues in the beginning. We added parts and worked it out. The point being, that drip assemblies can be easy or complex based on the need and the design of the cooler maker. There is no 'universal design.'

Show me what you 'got' and I will give you some ideas!

Cheers! -Piggy

[PigFish]

...last answer. That cooler no longer exists in this form. I has been gutted and refitted many times since.

I like the post because it is thought provoking and gives one some idea about cooler design. I now consider this project a failure (that is wisdom and maturity on the subject speaking).

While I consider it now to be a failure, it worked as well if not better than what is commonly produced by others and sold. THAT MAKES IT VIABLE STILL.

Has it been redesigned? Yes it has. I will take a picture of a similar unit, redesigned about a year ago.

If this is a generation 1 unit, you should know that I am now on generation 9.

Thanks for reading and participating.

-Piggy

[jimsta10]

...last answer. That cooler no longer exists in this form. I has been gutted and refitted many times since.

I like the post because it is thought provoking and gives one some idea about cooler design. I now consider this project a failure (that is wisdom and maturity on the subject speaking).

While I consider it now to be a failure, it worked as well if not better than what is commonly produced by others and sold. THAT MAKES IT VIABLE STILL.

Has it been redesigned? Yes it has. I will take a picture of a similar unit, redesigned about a year ago.

If this is a generation 1 unit, you should know that I am now on generation 9.

Thanks for reading and participating.

-Piggy

Thanks mate. Just picked up a 24 bottle Dome unit yesterday thermoelectric of cause. It's being prepped now and have placed empty boxed cigar boxes with beads. All my cigars are in there mini humidors during this prep. I will take a few photos later on to show you. My controller has arrived yet thus no holes or mods have been executed.

This stage is really for me to clean and figure out all the possible settings for optimal use. It might take me a few days just to tinker with it.

I have place 8 oz of 70rh bread, and 1 pound of kitty just to see how the it balances out.

I took of your design and will make some mods when I receive my digital humidification unit. Conceptually I will hook this into a 12v CPU fan, I will mount the fan into a Tupperware contain. I will fill this up with garden water crystals (have lying around) these will expand into gels hold distiller water. I will cut a small hold in container and place a retractable flap. Theory is when the rh reaches below my setting, the fan will initiate and the force from the fan will automatically move and life the flaps open to release rh. Once they rh reaches programmed level, the fan will go off and flaps will close. Food for thought.

[PigFish]

Well, you are using your noodle! I have tried many different attempts at airflow initiated automated valves and then proceeded to crush just about every box that I ever machined out of frustration. I have used Tyvec and silicon flaps, weights and all kinds of junk... I gave up!

I have some novel ideas about really light louvers set in a block machined at angles and gravity closed. The problem with some of this stuff, while it is a hoot to work on and develop, I must put into use, rationalize the cost of so that I can sell it. At this point work-arounds have worked best for me. Too much design, and more importantly too much assembly and machining time kills a lot of these projects for me. I tend to stray into the realm of over complex rather easily and have to reel myself in 'often.'

I use a simple wick-in-box design that most of us makers use. I think mine is a little more flashy and high tech than what others use, but that is because that is what I am into.

I have experimented with pingpong ball valves and all kinds of flapper designs. Let me know if one works... I will steal it...! -LOL

Keep us posted on the project and post up if you have questions that I can help with. If you want some pics of humidifiers, I will be happy to post some.

...well here is one of my humidifiers. Copy away!!! -LOL

-the Pig

[jimsta10]

Well, you are using your noodle! I have tried many different attempts at airflow initiated automated valves and then proceeded to crush just about every box that I ever machined out of frustration. I have used Tyvec and silicon flaps, weights and all kinds of junk... I gave up!

I have some novel ideas about really light louvers set in a block machined at angles and gravity closed. The problem with some of this stuff, while it is a hoot to work on and develop, I must put into use, rationalize the cost of so that I can sell it. At this point work-arounds have worked best for me. Too much design, and more importantly too much assembly and machining time kills a lot of these projects for me. I tend to stray into the realm of over complex rather easily and have to reel myself in 'often.'

I use a simple wick-in-box design that most of us makers use. I think mine is a little more flashy and high tech than what others use, but that is because that is what I am into.

I have experimented with pingpong ball valves and all kinds of flapper designs. Let me know if one works... I will steal it...! -LOL

Keep us posted on the project and post up if you have questions that I can help with. If you want some pics of humidifiers, I will be happy to post some.

...well here is one of my humidifiers. Copy away!!! -LOL

2014-10-27 07.43.58.jpg

-the Pig

Heya Ray,

Nice design...How do you prevent Humidity from escaping. My design will looks similar but upside down..Fan being on the inside blowing out...I'm going to give it a crack tonight...I will upload pictures once built. if i dont upload any, you will know why. LOL

BTW, just to let people know (from my mistake) dont fall into the trap of spraying distilled water the thin strips of cedar, moisture rarely escapes...resulting in a warm musty smell...refuse the temptation of misting your humidor was the first rule i have learnt.

[jimsta10]

Hi Ray,

Here's an update. Tried to construct multiple variations of the "tupperware" humidifier versions. all failed. my biggest challenge was concealing the 70% humidity beads. it leaked continuously thus causing my kitty litter soak in the 70% humidity and not releasing it. i had to change the kitty beads a few of times to dry them out. i dont have any 65% beads this is why i have chosen the kitty slica beads instead.

im contemplating in getting a compact humidifier online to try with my digital humidity controller, hopefully this can conceal the distilled water during non operational hours....

learning heaps during this exercise...with excess tupperware containers in the same process.

[jimsta10]

Just want to provide an update to all with my experience so far.

Im running a 24 bottle DOME thermoelectric wine cooler.Followed most of Ray's suggestions and advice on internal cooling and humidity. Based on my interpretation on countless weeks of tinkering and playing on what works and doesnt work (for me) are:

Hasn't worked (so far):

Trying to automate the humidity hasnt been successful

The Dome wine cooler has a ~3'C fluctuation with the internal temperature that i do not like

Has worked:

A mixture of ktty litter and HF beads has it at a constant 64% RH

I have a couple of internal humidors within the wine cooler that is currently sitting at 67% RH

temperature is set averaging around 16.5'C

The sticks smoked and burn great

From research (but could be debatable) temperature and RH is ideal for long term aging, which is what i am looking for. Plus its ideal to light up if you require an instant smoke.

Moving forward:

Im not too happy with the temperature fluctuation so i purchase a digital temp controller online. i will setting it to control and maintain the wineador around 18'C. if others disagree, please provide me your opinion (love to hear it).

Most of my cigars are in large humidors and I've decided to separate them ones for aging into there own boxes. This will discourage the urge to opening / closing and the occasional sniff (i do this a lot!)...I simply love the smell of the Cohiba's

I will also be purchasing a little humidifier in the coming weeks, will be playing around with that in another enclosed environment to see if i can automate the humidity...not sure whether this is a lost caused, however i fancy a challenge...

I will post an update in the coming weeks.

Cheers

[LGC]

I would be interested in finding out what type of controller you end up using

[jimsta10]

I would be interested in finding out what type of controller you end up using

I have a cheapo digital controller fot temperature that seem to be doing the job in my "demo" environment.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/271666479964?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

as for humidity i have this...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/120931352929?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

this unit is being used in my Proof Of Concept...has failed thus far..(not the hardware, but my design in controlling humidity)...