The backfiring Turing Test?

[99call]

So much discussion has been made on AI, and how it will develop by studying humans, absorb our traits, our knowledge, our mannerisms etc. During this time we see lots off people idolise the like of Elon Musk, Peter Theil, Jeff Bezos etc and the rest of the 'Bro-ligarch' class. Now, this idolisation may just be because people of a certain ilk associate them with great wealth, and they admire that. 

Personally the likes of Elon Musk and Peter Theil strike me as incredibly creepy sociopaths, that barely come across a human. By "barely human", I mean robotic, stuttering, monotone, unable to comprehend or express empathy, awkward, weird. 

In 1988 'Rainman' was released. I was 8 years old at the time, and I will confess that in the school yard through the 80's and 90's the name 'Rainman' was used as term of derision and abuse to suggest someone was stupid or abnormal. Obviously the world has changed a great deal, and thankfully autism is much more widely understood, and respected (largely due to that film). Have we reached a point, whereby a character like Rainman or Raymond is seen as not just talented in narrow and specific attributes...but actually the best of us? The model human being? The one we entrust our future to and follow? Or is he still the guy who will have hysterical fit if not allowed to watch Jeopardy on time?

I wonder if Elon Musk was asked which character he most closely associated with (in Rainman)? What his answer would be? Charlie or Raymond?

A simple question. Does AI (and it's gang of oddball leaders) stand more chance of making Humanity more like machines, then machines more like humans? Will AI actually degenerate the greatest attributes of humanity, instead of improve and assist them?

[El Presidente]

One of the most leading questions I have read in a long time 🤣

 

[99call]

11 hours ago, El Presidente said:

One of the most leading questions I have read in a long time 🤣

I have an opinion, thats plainly obvious, but I'm interested to hear other peoples. You suggest it's leading, I will easily agree with you on that, It's set out an idea, if someone thought it was bullshit, I would be interested to hear why? And for them to describe why we are in the best hands moving forward. 

[El Presidente]

The only thing missing was a reference to "terminator" but no doubt another actor/movie will form part of a follow up. 

 

Exceptional minds generally come with quirks. No news there. 

AI , if I were to take a punt, will reflect the best and worst of the human condition. 

Governments of all persuasions have been piss poor at installing guardrails. It isn't going to happen. 

Dilemma indeed. 

If I had to put $100 on it, AI will be great and appalling and everything in-between. 

A little like society itself.

[99call]

10 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Exceptional minds generally come with quirks. No news there. 

I was actually gonna try and quote Richard Pryor in 'Brewsters Millions' solely for your satisfaction Rob, as I know you love it. 

Does someone like Elon Musk have an exceptional mind? He's not a rocket scientist, he's not an engineer. He seems to be exceptionally gifted in amassing wealth through enterprise and I would praise him for that, in some respect, but was JP Getty a genius? From what I can gather, he was a very hard worker, an opportunist, and a monopolist. i.e. Don't like the shipping company you have to deal with, simply buy them out and cut out the middle man. Don't like the company that makes the ships...buy them out. It requires a lot of money, and hard work,  it's enterprising, it's logical...Is it genius? I don't think so, I guess its depends what attributes you admire in life. 

Elon Musk just seems to be a much more successful version of Elizabeth Holmes (P.S. there is a great film about her, and it's right up your street). I.e. lie about your capabilities, raise money off that promise, and then desperately try and fill the gap between bullshit and reality, whilst all time showing ankle to get rich quick enthusiasts on the stock market or crypto. 

I respect hard working, business people that create wealth, and well paid, safe jobs. There is a degree of genius in that, but the current era of tech-bro's do not strike me as that. It feels like they are little different to Victorian Mill owners (and not the nice ones). Unstable work, a preference for an overseas vulnerable workforce that he can threatened, lower pay, longer hours, a more dangerous work environment (Amazon). etc etc. I believe Yanis Varoufakis has called it 'Technofeudalism' (and no! he's not an actor in Robocop 3)

"A feudal system of government and property organization in which economic and social power is concentrated in a few technological and digital companies." 

If a current financial system benefits those who are willing to shaft people, threaten, lie, move fast and break "things" (see -->people). Surely that just means the richest person is likely to just be the biggest bastard? And I don't say that as being anti big business. 

I do think there is a way of being a successful business person, and feel proud of your moral code. Not to blow smoke, and maybe you would want to argue the counter Rob (I don't know). But you are someone I admire for wanting to grow a successful business, anti needless bureaucracy but respectful or rules that make sense and protect people, a good kind boss, to me I see genius in that...but I don't see genius in Musk, I see a terrible sociopath with zero ethics or empathy...it just so happens you can make a lot of money from that these days. 

[99call]

3 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Dilemma indeed. 

If I had to put $100 on it, AI will be great and appalling and everything in-between. 

A little like society itself

Strange to think that what you've written above, is my very best hope.   

But I'm putting my $100 dollars on something much more sinister and grim. 

Thanks for you're perspective Rob, very fair and straight forward. 

[Chas.Alpha]

If it makes anyone feel any better, I am also in the “Terminator” camp. The U.S. military already has autonomous drones that can plan their own attack profiles. At what point do they determine that all humans are a threat?

I’ll be back…

[BrightonCorgi]

1 hour ago, Chas.Alpha said:

If it makes anyone feel any better, I am also in the “Terminator” camp. The U.S. military already has autonomous drones that can plan their own attack profiles. At what point do they determine that all humans are a threat?

I’ll be back…

Over million drones many with 1lb explosives have been used in the Ukraine. The strategy is to send in drones to an Airforce base and blow-up planes while they are on the ground. Forget about expensive missiles trying to shoot down planes in the sky.

Imagine if each one of these had a 1lb explosive and charged a stadium, base, etc...There's nothing to stop it (at least in the US).

[99call]

1 hour ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Imagine if each one of these had a 1lb explosive and charged a stadium, base,

At least there's a good chance there would be excellent food before the dragon descended. I'd love to in the midst of cracking open a fortune cookie.

[El Presidente]

14 hours ago, 99call said:

I was actually gonna try and quote Richard Pryor in 'Brewsters Millions' solely for your satisfaction Rob, as I know you love it. 

Does someone like Elon Musk have an exceptional mind? He's not a rocket scientist, he's not an engineer. He seems to be exceptionally gifted in amassing wealth through enterprise and I would praise him for that, in some respect, but was JP Getty a genius? From what I can gather, he was a very hard worker, an opportunist, and a monopolist. i.e. Don't like the shipping company you have to deal with, simply buy them out and cut out the middle man. Don't like the company that makes the ships...buy them out. It requires a lot of money, and hard work,  it's enterprising, it's logical...Is it genius? I don't think so, I guess its depends what attributes you admire in life. 

 

Like him or loathe him, absolutely exceptional mind. Zip.com/PayPal/SpaceX/Tesla. X he purchased so it doesn't count. 

I do get a chuckle how Steve Jobs / Apple is feted by much of the left and yet Musk is pilloried. Both flawed individuals. Both geniuses/exceptional minds. They have both altered the human experience forever. I see the white anting of their achievements (but they didn't write the program!) as petty. The politics of the individual slinging can be determined by the direction from which the poisoned darts fly. It has always been thus through history. 

14 hours ago, 99call said:

 Unstable work, a preference for an overseas vulnerable workforce that he can threatened, lower pay, longer hours, a more dangerous work environment (Amazon). etc etc. I believe Yanis Varoufakis has called it 'Technofeudalism' (and no! he's not an actor in Robocop 3)

Marx would be proud comrade!!!

I must have missed the  workers at gunpoint at Telsa/Google/Amazon/Nividia/Apple. 

Not happy? Feel insecure?...Walk through the front door and go and find a job somewhere else. The only thing holding you back is fear itself. Thank god that "fear" is not something that those people providing your current paycheque suffered from. 

[99call]

4 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Thank god that "fear" is not something that those people providing your current paycheque suffered from. 

I provide my current paycheck. It may not be a great deal. But I know I've not hurt anyone along the way, and I take some comfort in that. Some may say I'm a fool to do so. But it's a calculation I'm happy with.

 

 

[El Presidente]

3 hours ago, 99call said:

I provide my current paycheck.  It may not be a great deal. But I know I've not hurt anyone along the way, and I take some comfort in that.  Some may say I'm a fool to do so.  But it's a calculation I'm happy with.

By "your" I meant those working at Tesla/Google/Amazon etal. 

I also provide my current paycheck. Thank god...as I am unemployable 

[Chas.Alpha]

3 hours ago, El Presidente said:

by "your" I meant those working at Tesla/Google/Amazon etal. 

I also provide my current paycheck. Thank god....as I am unemployable 

I just joined the Me Too movement!

[Chas.Alpha]

Just now, Chas.Alpha said:

I just joined the Me Too movement!

Rob, check your PM. I had a relevant question.

[El Presidente]

3 hours ago, Chas.Alpha said:

Rob, check your PM. I had a relevant question.

Shall do later today Charles. I am off now to pick up Alex G for a quick brunch. 

[Chas.Alpha]

Awww, he writes the best books! 😀

[Ken Gargett]

12 hours ago, El Presidente said:

If I had to put $100 on it, AI will be great and appalling and everything in-between. 

without question. 

only eventually it will follow humanity and destroy everything. but oligarchs around the world will be making way too much money to think of stopping it. by that stage, i should be fertilizer so good luck to those remaining. 

[PuroDiario]

@99call 

16 hours ago, 99call said:

 

17 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Exceptional minds generally come with quirks. No news there. 

I was actually gonna try and quote Richard Pryor in 'Brewsters Millions' solely for your satisfaction Rob, as I know you love it. 

Does someone like Elon Musk have an exceptional mind? He's not a rocket scientist, he's not an engineer. He seems to be exceptionally gifted in amassing wealth through enterprise and I would praise him for that, in some respect, but was JP Getty a genius? From what I can gather, he was a very hard worker, an opportunist, and a monopolist. i.e. Don't like the shipping company you have to deal with, simply buy them out and cut out the middle man. Don't like the company that makes the ships...buy them out. It requires a lot of money, and hard work,  it's enterprising, it's logical...Is it genius? I don't think so, I guess its depends what attributes you admire in life. 

Elon Musk just seems to be a much more successful version of Elizabeth Holmes (P.S. there is a great film about her, and it's right up your street). I.e. lie about your capabilities, raise money off that promise, and then desperately try and fill the gap between bullshit and reality, whilst all time showing ankle to get rich quick enthusiasts on the stock market or crypto. 

I respect hard working, business people that create wealth, and well paid, safe jobs. There is a degree of genius in that, but the current era of tech-bro's do not strike me as that. It feels like they are little different to Victorian Mill owners (and not the nice ones). Unstable work, a preference for an overseas vulnerable workforce that he can threatened, lower pay, longer hours, a more dangerous work environment (Amazon). etc etc. I believe Yanis Varoufakis has called it 'Technofeudalism' (and no! he's not an actor in Robocop 3)

"." 

If a current financial system benefits those who are willing to shaft people, threaten, lie, move fast and break "things" (see -->people). Surely that just means the richest person is likely to just be the biggest bastard? And I don't say that as being anti big business. 

Yanis’s book is interesting albeit only possibly understood and contemplated from a somewhat Marxist point of view. The fact that the centrepiece is around rent extraction from tech companies (such Amazon charging third party sellers to sell through their platform) and compares it to feudal times land ownerships is cute, but…Amazon > 25 years and after billions^2 of dollars investment built the most convenient way for consumers to access the broadest and most convenient channel to a selection of products and services, the most convenient way to shop them and the most seamless way to get them home. Meanwhile also built the servers where the vast majority of global businesses today are built upon. And all the infrastructure and human capital that surrounds it. You can look it in many ways and find many flaws, but that the economic impact, standard of living, new business formation opportunities, job creation, etc. wherever big tech operates is massive both directly and indirectly and indisputably net positive (not saying it is perfect all Around, but clearly net positive by a substantial margin) I’d be hard pushed to contemplate.

At the end of the day, it’s Jobs smartphone, Bezos’s servers, the robber barons enterprising etc etc etc what has led into all of us being having these discussions here on our phones, miles away from each other, while I watch UTA game on YouTube TV catching ESPN’s cast, my “decentralized” BTC is mined with NVidia chips, as I sip a Coke, check my Instagram and shop for a pair of Nikes for my son on my Lenovo laptop that I bought on Bestbuy, and decide what capitalist good handrolled in a communist country that I purchased to an Australian enterprising vendor I will puff in NYC while I relax on the chair I bought from a Chinese furniture shop I found on Alibaba. None of us has been forced to use these services or is forced to do so, but is convenient, delivers user surplus, etc. rent payers do so because they extract more value than that rent. The notion that behavior modification power from these platforms is what brings us here falls in the paternalistic classic traps of those that hate capitalism. Capitalists are not bad people, success does not equate to evil…we are people, all flawed. And in fact the replacement rate of the top company names is quite clear if you graph the last 100 or 50 years of business history.

I do however see a point on the excessive adulation of the person and the notion that economic success means ability to be “right” in any topic in any field which is not and should not be interpreted as the norm, but also there is no reason for which a person even if his platform is huge should be prevented from expressing his opinions and be public about it, or push his agenda for that same coin always within law and reason, etc. further you can’t assume “genius” Is a one dimensional concept, Picasso was a genius, maybe Getty was a genius in his own dimension, and Hernan Cortes in his own as well, they were all enterprising. Is Messi a genius? For sure with the ball, he is enterprising. IQ, EQ, whichever the Q.

I'll leave a quote from a clear genius on this to finish the rant, Albert Einstein’s which builds on the concept that is not the good intentions of the baker that gets you the good bread daily, but his own interest!
 

“It’s no accident that capitalism has brought with it progress, not merely in production but also in knowledge. Egoism and competition are, alas, stronger forces than public spirit and sense of duty.”

[99call]

On 1/11/2025 at 2:33 PM, PuroDiario said:

“It’s no accident that capitalism has brought with it progress, not merely in production but also in knowledge. Egoism and competition are, alas, stronger forces than public spirit and sense of duty.”

You could easily argue that public spirit and sense of duty are often a required by-product of the mess created by egoism and greed. Look at the UK currently for instance. The utter mess of corruption and selfishness left by the outgoing tory government. Public spirit and genuine sense patriotism are required in huge doses, due to the corporate theft and  corruption of privatisation. It's only when some people break the social contract and display selfishness, does it require others, to go above and beyond to fill the gap. 

On 1/11/2025 at 2:33 PM, PuroDiario said:

I do however see a point on the excessive adulation of the person and the notion that economic success means ability to be “right” in any topic in any field which is not and should not be interpreted as the norm, but also there is no reason for which a person even if his platform is huge should be prevented from expressing his opinions and be public about it, or push his agenda for that same coin always within law and reason, etc. further you can’t assume “genius” Is a one dimensional concept, Picasso was a genius, maybe Getty was a genius in his own dimension, and Hernan Cortes in his own as well, they were all enterprising. Is Messi a genius? For sure with the ball, he is enterprising. IQ, EQ, whichever the Q.

Certain people need to be stopped (full stop) history has taught us that. If being 'extremely effective' is a measure of genius, then well...I wont go into the weeds on that one, but I think you can clearly see the problem. 

The sparring partner that's often purposefully chosen by those of the right, is Karl Marx and communism. I'm much more interested in Owenism and the co-operative movement. I am not against aspects of capitalism, and believe it can work hand in glove with aspects of socialism (as it often does in the UK). The likes of Robert Owen and Titus Salt, were men of industry, but also were able to preserve their moral code. improve workers conditions, housing, education, social mobility etc etc. The likes of Elon Musk are scatter-gunning his critiques around the world. He could actually solve many of these problems with the his money in the stroke of a pen, but will he? No chance, he just content to be an irritant. 

My core principle, is that doing business, making products, employing people etc. does not require a vulgar exploitative moral code, it's simply the excuse some use, because they want to squeeze more money out of their business model. Less pay...more hours...less safety etc etc. It's a choice.

Albert Einstein was a genius...he was also a Socialist, no matter how much the Adam Smith Institute may like to selectively pick his quotes to meet their ends. Here's a couple more for you. 

“the real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development”

― Albert Einstein

 

“[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion.”

― Albert Einstein, Why Socialism?

 

Here's the best one however,  It gives you the distinct feeling Einstein would have had a pretty dim view of Musk's exploits

“Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society. This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists who, for all practical purposes, separate the electorate from the legislature. The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interests of the underprivileged sections of the population. Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights.”

― Albert Einstein, Why Socialism?

 

[Dr vonPuffenberg]

On 1/15/2025 at 1:14 AM, 99call said:

Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights.”

― Albert Einstein, Why Socialism?

 

What is the alternative, government control of information sources? I can’t imagine a single unit of government I would trust for my “information”, from a small town mayor to the British monarch. At least with privately owned media, we can trust that the owner’s bias will be included and act accordingly.

Thankfully we have an uncensored twitter now to share information 😉

[El Presidente]

18 hours ago, Dr vonPuffenberg said:

What is the alternative, government control of information sources?  I can’t imagine a single unit of government I would trust for my “information”, from a small town mayor to the British monarch.  At least with privately owned media, we can trust that the owner’s bias will be included and act accordingly.

Thankfully we have an uncensored twitter now to share information 😉

Reality, there is no-one left to trust but yourself and maybe your inner circle of family and confidants. 

What a novel idea to teach in schools. Listen, check, check again, check again, and determine a position "tentatively"...and be prepared to change that position. 

[99call]

18 hours ago, Dr vonPuffenberg said:

At least with privately owned media, we can trust that the owner’s bias will be included and act accordingly.

What if their bias was not the only imposition you felt from that owner? The right wing (in general) are obsessed with the notion of being cancelled. What if the social media owner 'by name' put a target on your back that led to genuine death threats and increased security to your home and children. Elon Musk did this recently to Jess Phillips a serving MP in the UK government. An MP that has dedicated their political career to stop violence against women and children specifically. I think their bias, is the least we have to fear from these people. 

I would agree with you that trust is damaged in governments. Until the threat of jail time in an actual reality for powerful people, all checks and balances are out the window. Lots of countries that consider themselves great democracies, look more like private members clubs at the moment. Nothing will change while the risk or punishment has been removed. 

Didn't Tim Berners-Lee give away his work as an act of altruism. He wanted the internet to be tool of communication, efficiency. and collaboration. Where have these charitable, kind instincts gone? Do we not believe them possible anymore? or valuable?

18 hours ago, Dr vonPuffenberg said:

What is the alternative, government control of information sources? I can’t imagine a single unit of government I would trust for my “information”, from a small town mayor to the British monarch.

I would trust my mayor Andy Burnham over Elon Musk any day. A decent person who has tirelessly fought for the victims of the Hillsborough disaster, given us cheaper more reliable transport in Manchester. Won record amounts of investment in Manchester. I think this comes back to my original point. If Elon Musk is a great tech boffin, and very talented at business/amassing wealth then great, but I do not think he is a model human being. I don't think he represents the best of the human condition in any way, and my concern is, is that this class or tech bros seek to socially engineer a society in their own image. If he Musk were solely the owner of an rocket and electric car company, I would have no issue with him whatsoever. Gladly, I think he seems far more likely to self implode before he can do anything too disastrous.

[99call]

13 hours ago, El Presidente said:

What a novel idea to teach in schools. Listen, check, check again, check again, and determine a position "tentatively"...and be prepared to change that position.

There no political angle in what I'm about to say, but Jesus, it actually sends a cold shiver down my spine, the thought of being in full time education at the moment, it must be an absolute nightmare. Use too much AI and you in real risk or plagiarism, don't use any and you have to wade through a never ending sticky bog of claims and counter claims. I think if I had to go back to university now, it would be actually be easier to use the library exclusively. 

[El Presidente]

10 hours ago, 99call said:

There no political angle in what I'm about to say, but Jesus, it actually sends a cold shiver down my spine, the thought of being in full time education at the moment, it must be an absolute nightmare. Use too much AI and you in real risk or plagiarism, don't use any and you have to wade through a never ending sticky bog of claims and counter claims. I think if I had to go back to university now, it would be actually be easier to use the library exclusively. 

Teach resilience. Questioning, Tolerance, Respect, Equanimity. 

Not that hard,,,really.

[99call]

9 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Teach resilience. Questioning, Tolerance, Respect, Equanimity. 

Not that hard,,,really.

Not talking about lessons or attributes, rather the simple logistics of study. It was hard enough locating the right sources and references in library during the 90's, the thought of having to navigate misinformation and revisionist history I would of found to be another gut punch back in the day. 

What I'm trying to say, is like the calculator allowed on your desk during a maths exam. They didn't say "you can use that...but don't use it too much!". Whereas kids these days are being asked to absorb another layer of mixed messaging and orientate around more dross information that I think previous generations did, and I feel for them.