Sharing my experience with colder temperature

[Uwiik]

I used to keep my stash at 19C/66.2F @ 61-63%, although I somehow liked the result (no plugged sticks at all from any box), at times I can feel some of my sticks are burning hot or harsh and have a duller looking wrapper. Thanks to the wealth of information provided by fellow BOTL here, these past few months I began experimenting with colder temperatures while maintaining similar humidity 17C/62.6F @ 62-64%. With the colder setting, I can definitely say that I experienced a HUGE improvements, my sticks are shiny again and definitely a lot more aromatic/sweet to smoke, some suspect boxes (mainly Monte 4) became totally/partly plugged up again but there is a drier spot on the very top rack which always registers 60-61% rh and that is where I put all of my opened boxes with a plugged up tendency. It seems to help.  

As for the rest of the unopened boxes for long term aging, they all vacuum sealed at same temperature with higher humidity at 65-66% and all are resting peacefully inside the same walk-in. 

Please share your experience fellow BOTL...

[PigFish]

This is because you have wetter cigars! If you step back from your own writing and read it as if someone else posted it, you would say, your cigars have more water that is why they exhibit those traits.

One of the main issues with cold storage is in the air transfer when you open your humidor, and you have an ambient that is net wet compared to your humidor. If you humidor does not have a devoted dehumidifier or dehumidification process in operation you risk really wet cigars and mold potential.

I am not telling you what to do or taste. I am telling you about psychrometrics of real world cigar storage from a guy who has now experimented and empirically proven it for many years now.

Your post is a simple one to me. You like wetter cigars (than I do). What you have done is used a riskier means of storage to come to that conclusion. MHO

[Pvalue83]

@PigFish and others maybe I am missing the point, or misunderstand the interrelationship between temperature and RH but, if I had two otherwise identical humidors and both had a single cigar with a new 64% boveda pack initially both are set to temp of 17C (62.6F).

Now on one of the humidors I reduce the temperature setting to 15.6C (60F) and wait 1 week.

Don’t both cigars have the same RH (64%) but different temperatures?


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[zeedubbya]

Think of it in terms of an oven. The hotter one will dry your cigars more, rH being equal. Like baking bread. One week may not make a difference but long term it will for sure. Putting cigars in a colder environment will bring more moisture to them. You have made your cigars wetter, as @PigFish has said. Maybe this works better for you though— if it does and you can manage the ambient air flow and monitor for mold, you should do what smokes best for you personally. I choose to go dry. 70 dF/ 61 rH.  
 

Link to (recent) Pigfish post here on the issue. Per this chart you would need to be around ~40% rH to achieve the correct PMC (in green area), at 62 dF per this chart. I’m only an old student here and I do own one of @PigFish Cigar Climatology systems, albeit an older one—it still works great after nearly 10 years with the fans, bead silo, unit and sensors running nearly constantly. Ray, I am forever in your debt for what I have and what I’ve learned.  Hope you’re doing well!  
 

**I have also put a pic of one of the MANY emails back and forth between myself and Ray about an ambient temp issue, so you may get an idea of what this looks like from a technical standpoint, with a bead silo, and keep in mind this is one of his OLD systems we cobbled together.  
 

 

[Fugu]

12 hours ago, Pvalue83 said:

Don’t both cigars have the same RH (64%) but different temperatures?

You meant to say ‘moisture’ (relative water content m/m). There’s no such thing as humidity (RH) in solid matter. Humidity is a parameter that is always and only applied to the gas phase. But you're in good company as this tends to be mixed up even by equipment manufacturers (and wannabes…).

One will have to understand that a humidity pack such as Boveda is aiming at keeping the humidity RH (relative humidity, to be precise) in the surrounding atmosphere constant, NOT the moisture in your cigars! Ambient humidity we just use as a proxy for desired tobacco moisture of cigars stored in it (at equilibrium).

Tobacco moisture as a function of atmospheric RH is temperature-dependent.

[Pvalue83]

This is incredibly enlightening - many, many thanks for all the patience and insight. Very much appreciated.


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[PigFish]

@zeedubbya, meant to say hello on the other thread. As always, I have been overwhelmed with my work and cannot post here as often as I like. I have missed you! I hope you are well.

My biggest humidor yet... (LOL). 850K sqft of refrigerator for a grocery chain. The freezer (approx 250K sqft) not built yet. Calling it 'my biggest humidor' is a bit of joke, so please understand the humor!

As always when the topics of rH and temperature are brought up, many, many people get confused. In my tenure of discussing this topic, many even get mad defending a position that they know precious little about.

As I have said here often, over the decades now.... I don't care how you store "your" (one's own) cigars. I am here to discuss the facts of the matter and share a little of my many years of experience with it. Take it for what it is worth.

My entering this thread was a bit obvious. I am talking increasing PMC (percent moisture content) via a reduction in energy of water. HEAT! AND, the perils that are potentially encountered by the refrigeration of cigars. In my mind, refrigeration of cigars is a process of keeping them below "room temperature." For the sake of argument, that ranges from 70 to 75F.

This is a video I made about air exchanges some 8 years ago. I was well on my way (even back then) on defining precision humidor control in harsh environments. I did this little video on my test box, a humidor test simulator, to demonstrate results that I had experienced and discovered along the way. I would often make specific videos to answer the questions people sent me. This is one such video.

On the topic of condensation, most folks don't realize what water vapor does when it cannot be supported by a lower temperature state. It falls out of suspension and bonds to itself, or any other substrate that will support its company. This is part of what the video is about. It also demonstrates what a lack of knowledge of psychrometrics can get you when you refrigerate your cigars. The meat of the matter is about minute 7. Watch what presumed dry air does to a cool humidor at 70F. Now think about where that water is going to land in a humidor at 60F, and what that water could do to your cigars!

Enjoy! -the Pig

 

[zeedubbya]

8 hours ago, PigFish said:

 

@zeedubbya, meant to say hello on the other thread. As always, I have been overwhelmed with my work and cannot post here as often as I like. I have missed you! I hope you are well.

 

Sorry for a small thread hijack @Pvalue83 …

@PigFish Last night I sat and read our emails back and forth in 2017 and thought— this should be written down somewhere. My lord the patience you had with me. Unreal. On one I asked you about a power supply and a specific plug style-you simply said—send $50 and I’ll send you A correct supply! Your patience was indeed infinite. I do need to call you my friend. To catch up and also - I am ready to move to the next step—our 4 axis discussion back then is long overdue. I realize how busy you are and I promise it won’t be like last time, because I am sure if you sent me an hourly bill, I’d owe you 50k or more 🤣 !! Much brotherly love and appreciation. Talk soon.  Z