H Upmann Perfectos Glass Jar 50 Dunhill

[X-Man]

How legit is this? 

Any insights would be much appreciated.

[NSXCIGAR]

Going to be a matter of provenance. Looks pretty good for the other jars of that era I've seen. 

I'm not familiar with the model Perfectos but as a Dunhill I'd imagine there's some record of it. And HU jars in 50s are far less common than 25s. 

Might end up being quite a nice piece. 

[99call]

6 hours ago, X-Man said:

How legit is this?

Does the internal cedar wrap have any Dunhill branding?  If it doesn't all I would say is it would be very easy to simply 'up' the value of this item, with a Dunhill sticker taken off something else. 

If I were you I would carefully empty the jar, and take Hi-res images of the internal of that dunhill sticker through the glass. If it is has any glue patterns like it look like it's been taken off something else, I would be cautious. 

How tight are the bands? Do they have internal discolouration?

Find it a little hard to imagine a 'perfecto' branded jar, didn't actually have a perfecto shaped cigar inside. But then again, having perfecto tipped cigars in these jars would be suicide,  o maybe...I've not seen them before in these jars. 

Not sure why it would have a US customs sticker if it was being stocked by Dunhill 'London'. 

In summary, I think there are a few little head scratchers I think you would want to resolve, before considering a purchase. That is in no way to say it's not legit. 

 

[Puros Y Vino]

The cigars look like they're from the 1940's era.  (see below). 

There's also a reference to the brand in 1938 (from Cuban gov't docs) This seems to hint that these were made for the American market(?)

The bands look awfully recent. I've had some 1940 HU Cristales. They sported the old brown band. The new bands do echo the designs of the Pre-Embargo ones though. I would expect to at least see "Dunhill" on the band itself, or the cigar name (as shown below). From all the pics of old Upmann jars floating around,the brown band seemed to be the standard issue. But, given this is a 50 count jar, maybe it got an upgrade? Or WWII resource scarcity could have played into this as well?

Then again, the newer design does appear on older cigars.

The cigars themselves don't look vintage to me. If you can actually inspect this for yourself and take a sniff that would help. There should be some mustiness to them. I think this could be an old jar re-stocked with newer cigars. I've done some searching through old eBay auctions and this jar doesn't come up. That could be a good sign. That doesn't mean the door is closed to chicanery though. The jar could have been bought offline somewhere.

Searching books.google.com can bring up some pretty interesting results that google itself does not present. I've found a lot of cigar related info and free cigar books that way!!  FWIW, the US Trademark registry publications have a TON of info on cigars coming into the country.  If there's a mysterious Pre-Embargo you see pop up on  website, chances re, there's a record of it in those docs. Sadly, most are copyrighted for some reason, so you can't download the full volumes. But often enough, you'll get the excerpt of it you can preview. They are huge publications though. 500 pages plus at times.

As for "Perfectos", nothing came up in my searches that indicate Dunhill had an HU by that name. Doesn't mean they don't exist as there are a lot of cigars from that era that weren't well documented.

So, nothing conclusive from my end. Just some added food for thought. A in person inspection would be best if it is close by. 

[NSXCIGAR]

7 hours ago, Puros Y Vino said:

The bands look awfully recent.

I noticed that as well. With a better image I think it could be established. The older bands should have that "powdery" gold texture while the post-2000 era bands have a reflective "foil" shine to them. 

This being a Dunhill jar I wouldn't rule out the use of the red & gold band instead of the typical brown on the Crystales and Petit Coronas etc. Although here's an odd one I found--Crystales with the "FST" band I've only ever seen on Sir Winstons:

[99call]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

9 hours ago, Puros Y Vino said:

The bands look awfully recent.

I noticed that as well. With a better image I think it could be established. The older bands should have that "powdery" gold texture while the post-2000 era bands have a reflective "foil" shine to them. 

This being a Dunhill jar I wouldn't rule out the use of the red & gold band instead of the typical brown on the Crystales and Petit Coronas etc. Although here's an odd one I found--Crystales with the "FST" band I've only ever seen on Sir Winstons

I think whether it be original boxes/jars or NOS bands. Our focus always needs to be beyond these elements as to some extent they are. All real and period material, and it's  this stuff that so successfully dupes people.

With these type of hucksters. Focusing on tight bands. Internally clean bands. Sanded boxes. Boxes that when white balanced show movement of labels etc. the cigars themselves (most importantly)

The first things we need to put to the side (to some respect) are the boxes and bands. The fraudsters know this is their best chance of building the trust they need to successfully make a sale.

[NSXCIGAR]

16 hours ago, 99call said:

Find it a little hard to imagine a 'perfecto' branded jar, didn't actually have a perfecto shaped cigar inside. But then again, having perfecto tipped cigars in these jars would be suicide,  o maybe...I've not seen them before in these jars. 

Not sure why it would have a US customs sticker if it was being stocked by Dunhill 'London'. 

I've seen some pretty odd naming choices in pre-Rev cigars so while odd a non-figurado would be called a Perfecto I don't think it would be dispositive. Although by 1931 the term "perfecto" was almost universally recognized to indicate a figurado cigar and it would be unusual to find that name for a parejo. I would definitely need some documentation of the existence of such a cigar. 

The US customs sticker is also out of place but something provenance could explain. Did Dunhill operate shops in the US pre-Rev? That could explain it. Or I'm sure a box from London could be ordered if one wanted the most prestigious cigars in the world. 

At this point I wouldn't go any further on this one without full provenance.

[99call]

9 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

The US customs sticker is also out of place but something provenance could explain. Did Dunhill operate shops in the US pre-Rev? That could explain it. Or I'm sure a box from London could be ordered if one wanted the most prestigious cigars in the world. 

I believe the date of Dunhill's overseas expansion to New York was 1921. However, I still don't think that explains the presence of 'Dunhill London' and 'American Customs' label on the same item. If Dunhill had originally imported this to London, they surely would have done it direct from Cuba (not through the US), and if they had exported back to the states, they would have had "Dunhill New York" stickers, as Dunhill were very officious about such things. 

I think we also have to ask ourselves, why do the customs and warranty labels look much duller and foxed compared to the Dunhill label, is it because they have only been recently introduced to one another?

The more I look at this item, but more it looks like it's been put together by fraudsters.

[99call]

I've just revisited the now dead (thank god) facebook page of "Truth Cigars" for a laugh. Some real howlers on here, with sanded boxes, relabelling etc etc. Just an illustration, of how rife label manipulation is. 

[NSXCIGAR]

20 hours ago, 99call said:

I still don't think that explains the presence of 'Dunhill London' and 'American Customs' label on the same item. If Dunhill had originally imported this to London, they surely would have done it direct from Cuba (not through the US), and if they had exported back to the states, they would have had "Dunhill New York" stickers, as Dunhill were very officious about such things. 

The only possibility is that a Dunhill shop in the US requested this jar from Dunhill London for a client. I don't know how business was done there but this may not have been a product carried in the US shop. I'm sure for the right price they'd ship whatever you wanted from London. But then they would have to have kept the London seal and not added the US/NY seal which I suppose they might have done for products shipped between Dunhill stores.

Obviously this is really stretching to make it work and I'm in agreement that it would need serious provenance and documentation to overcome this anomaly. 

Your experience with stickers and labels in this area pointing out some of the variations in color and age along with the other points is enough for me to conclude this has a steep hill to climb before I'd entertain it as legitimate. 

[Fugu]

On 8/23/2024 at 11:33 AM, 99call said:

Not sure why it would have a US customs sticker if it was being stocked by Dunhill 'London'.

The ‘London’ bit has been part of the corporate name, as can also be seen from Frank’s excerpt from the US trademarks document. “Alfred Dunhill of London, Inc., New York, United States”

Therefore, the US-Customs label and the reference to London doesn’t need to pose an issue here. This is a jar that likely has been imported from Cuba into the USA by / or for the New York branch of Dunhill.
With the caveat that one always needs to inspect such an object “in hand”, from the pictures, I don’t spot anything that would let me suspect “fishy” about the jar itself. Labeling and the particular wear and patina look authentic to me, and also in some details are quite difficult to “emulate”.

The cigars, however, are very clearly non-original. Not just due to the parejo format. The particular flat head-execution points to a manufacturing date after the revolution (and, like you guys, I suspect are rather fairly recent). Before and still well into the 1960s all hand-made parejo cigars were sporting rounded heads. That particular flat-head execution wasn’t introduced before, and you would certainly not find it in a cigar of the 30s to 50s.

 

[99call]

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

The ‘London’ bit has been part of the corporate name

Of that era, and how fastidious companies like Dunhill branching out to New York and Paris etc. They would have had specific labelling for specific stores.    I have not seen those White Dunhill labels, or the Brown oval ones or the peach coloured and any US boxes, only UK based. I'm not saying it didn't happen,  just not seen it myself personally.   

Saying "Alfred Dunhill of London" means something completely different to "Alfred Dunhill, London"   

I think if anything it would be a sticker saying.

                DUNHILL

London  - New York  -  Paris

 

Anyway, Happy to agree to disagree. 

Great point about the flatened-head execution

Heres the "Upmann Perfecto" shape illustrated in 1925 Frankau catalogue.

[Fugu]

Sometimes, it helps to consult CCW…

Said jar and cigars are shown there in the historic 1925/6 H. Upmann catalogue by J. Frankau & Co. Cigar No. 22 pictured is the Perfectos, and indeed also available in jar. Though reproduced in b/w one can see that the cigar sported the red and gold band (at least for the period concerned).

I’d say, @X-Man, the jar itself is likely to be authentic (mho). So if you are into collecting of such things, or anyhow interested, I’d make an offer to the seller based on the jar alone. The cigars may be smokeable more recent Cubans, in which case one might add a certain value according to that (if seller insists to sell only in unit with the gars…). But origin and provenance are completely unclear, so you should factor in a considerable deduction for that. Eventually, a matter of smart negotiating. At least, with the catalogue info, you’ve got pretty undisputable proof that those cigars are not the real-deal. You may question, how “real” would then be the jar…? Also take into consideration that the leather strap is missing (earlier jara came without, but this later one here has got the additional ring and rivet for the strap. Also, it looks like the round cedar insert for the top is missing as well.

[Fugu]

7 minutes ago, 99call said:

Heres the "Upmann Perfecto" shape illustrated in 1925 Frankau catalogue

Haha, beat me to it!

[99call]

Interestingly,  this box of that sold at auction was also bullshit. The box has been sanded to death. The brass clasp has zero oxidisation on it. The cigars just look like re-banded Cuabas. With the rounded bulbs at the end, instead of sharp angled tapers. 

How are labels supposed to get that dirty when the cedar box looks like a it's never been touched by a human hand. Crazy. 

Interestingly, looks like they found the right bands from somewhere. 

[Fugu]

I bet we could find many scenarios how that little sticker got onto that jar. Many of them completely unsuspicious. In the end, this will not be the sole decisive factor.

[99call]

2 hours ago, Fugu said:

In the end, this will not be the sole decisive factor.

Agreed, but interestingly as Rafly.com has pointed out with whisky fraudsters...it's when people start being 'too cute' and adding additional stuff designed to win confidence, is often when they telegraph what they are up to.