Boveda in a vacuum pack

[Uwiik]

At the end of last year I managed to snatch 3 X 50' Cab of Partagas Lusitanias from 2019. Unfortunately all were bone dry when they arrived with the wrapper looking dry, very light brown and having lost all of its oily sheen. Fortunately all samples from each box were still tasting and smoking exemplary, so I proceeded to rehydrate it for further aging at 17C/66-67 RH and all but one box gained back their oily sheen, with much darker brown wrappers exuding aromatic scent when opening the box.

Now I want to vacuum everything because I know I wouldn't be able to finish all 150 sticks in a few years and I still have 5 more standard dress box Lusis. I'm thinking about putting 65% Boveda inside the one 50' cab which wrappers are still looking dull. I know many said no need to put Boveda inside a vacuumed box, but in my case I feel the need to do so. I know water will evaporate much faster under vacuum. I'm wondering if I am risking anything by putting Boveda under vacuum?   

[TheGipper]

Firstly, get the cigars to correct condition before vacuum sealing.

I experimented long ago with adding a Boveda to a vacuum seal, and they just don't seem to work right in the lower pressure. If your cigars are in the right condition before you seal, the Boveda in the bag will do nothing to help.

A good quality vacuum seal bag will lose almost no water vapor over even a 10-20 year period. So start with the cigars in the right condition, and you won't need to worry about active humidification inside the bag. Just store sealed box in a coolerdor or whatever you have.

Also, the value in the vacuum seal is the seal, not the vacuum. Draw the excess air from the bag, but hit the seal button before it starts to pull the bag to much lower pressure.

Source: I've been vacuum sealing for long term aging for more than 20 years.

[El Presidente]

Great advice above 

[Uwiik]

6 hours ago, TheGipper said:

Firstly, get the cigars to correct condition before vacuum sealing.

I experimented long ago with adding a Boveda to a vacuum seal, and they just don't seem to work right in the lower pressure. If your cigars are in the right condition before you seal, the Boveda in the bag will do nothing to help.

A good quality vacuum seal bag will lose almost no water vapor over even a 10-20 year period. So start with the cigars in the right condition, and you won't need to worry about active humidification inside the bag. Just store sealed box in a coolerdor or whatever you have.

Also, the value in the vacuum seal is the seal, not the vacuum. Draw the excess air from the bag, but hit the seal button before it starts to pull the bag to much lower pressure.

Source: I've been vacuum sealing for long term aging for more than 20 years.

I understand about the concept of vacuuming thanks to people like you and several others here on this great forum, but the one offending box is just too stubborn. All three 50' cabs has the same code and date and only one box insists on being dull after more than 6 months of reconditioning. I am not sure if I should just stubbornly recondition the offending box outside of vacuum sealing or just vacuum it up anyway. It's still smoking wonderfully well but has lost all of its oily sheen. I'm not sure if I will ever get the sheen back again, if it doesn't then this will be my first experience because previously I have always managed to revive badly stored cigars. Now after I have enough old boxes I just stopped buying aged boxes and focus on post 2020 boxes as too many dumb vendors storing their cigars in suboptimal condition. I wonder why Boveda doesn't work in a vacuum because theoretically water should evaporate faster in vacuum conditions.

[Havanaaddict]

Before vacuum sealing that particular cab, I would put it in a regular large Ziploc bag with a Boveda inside the cab itself. I have done this and it seems to work better than just putting it in a humidified environment. My cab was still in a humidified cabinet, but it was just in a Ziploc bag with a Boveda inside the cab. 

[Uwiik]

6 hours ago, Havanaaddict said:

Before vacuum sealing that particular cab, I would put it in a regular large Ziploc bag with a Boveda inside the cab itself. I have done this and it seems to work better than just putting it in a humidified environment. My cab was still in a humidified cabinet, but it was just in a Ziploc bag with a Boveda inside the cab. 

Thanks for the idea, should I try this for another 6 months? I reconditioned all 3 boxes inside a tupperdor with a lot of Boveda 65% packs (stable at 66-67 actual) and the tupperdor is inside my walk-in humidor (17C/62-63RH). Is it really conclusive that Boveda doesn't work well in a vacuum condition? I can just do exactly this but with vacuum conditioning for another 6 months, open and re-inspect later if indeed Boveda can work in vacuum conditioning. 

[TheGipper]

6 hours ago, Uwiik said:

only one box insists on being dull after more than 6 month of reconditioning

I think the way to think about this is: sheen is oil, not so much water content of the cigar. No Boveda is going to put oil back into the cigar.

But you can try it. I don't think you'll do any harm including a Boveda in the cab. But I think if the sticks are currently properly humidified, they're just going to look dull forever, which is fine. I've had plenty of boxes that the wrapper leaf looks utterly pathetic but smoke well anyway.

[Uwiik]

6 hours ago, TheGipper said:

I think the way to think about this is: sheen is oil, not so much water content of the cigar. No Boveda is going to put oil back into the cigar.

But you can try it. I don't think you'll do any harm including a Boveda in the cab. But I think if the sticks are currently properly humidified, they're just going to look dull forever, which is fine. I've had plenty of boxes that the wrapper leaf looks utterly pathetic but smoke well anyway.

Couldn't agree more, I have mentioned it here before that some of my best smokes came from sticks with pathetic (your word 😜) looking wrappers. I know that sheen often means nothing when it comes to flavor, I was just wondering why two boxes out of three, from identical box codes, managed to get back all of its sheen and turned into a much darker brown color like how Lusitania is supposed to be, while one box only got back about half of its original sheen and stayed light brown in color. Two minutes ago I just unsealed that offending box, put two pouches of 65% Boveda packs inside the cab and sealed it again, only this time with barely any vacuum. I just got rid of the excess air and sealed it up way before the lid started to bow, only time will tell. 

The picture below was how it looked when it arrived in December 2023. Now everything is looking much smoother, not as wrinkly and two of the boxes turned much shinier and much darker brown, the offending box stayed this exact light brown and more shiny but not as shiny as the other two boxes. Some sticks on the offending box now have some cracks on the foot while the 'good' boxes have none of the crack, maybe the offending box got much drier than the other two during previous storage, hence the cracks during re hydration?

The picture below is how the ‘successful’ ones looked like today. Night and day difference from the first picture. Took the pic just now. 

[Monterey]

6 hours ago, TheGipper said:

A good quality vacuum seal bag will lose almost no water vapor over even a 10-20 year period.  S

Also, the value in the vacuum seal is the seal, not the vacuum. 

I believed those statements for too long. It sadly is not true. I'm running tests and doing a video on this. I was shocked to find these statements to not be true. It got me down such a rabbit hole that I've been emailing the manufacturers of the bags (3 different companies) to understand this better. 

Take a bag and fill it with slightly humid air. Put in your hygrometer and seal it up. What do you think happens in just a week? I doubled sealed both ends, humidity dropped all the way down to 60 (was 91 during sealing) in a 40 percent environment.

Running another test with a hygrometer in a box of cigars (took a cigar out, put the unit in) and waiting a bit to see what happens there. The box, a box that was a dud (hence leaving it to being a test box) is sitting in 40% humidity while I sealed it at 71%. Will be interesting to see what the result will be.

Video on all this is coming soon.

[Boss Hog]

1 hour ago, TheGipper said:

No Boveda is going to put oil back into the cigar.

Bingo.

Once the oils are gone, those cigars will never be the same.

[Domsday]

4 hours ago, Monterey said:

I believed those statements for too long. It sadly is not true. I'm running tests and doing a video on this. I was shocked to find these statements to not be true. It got me down such a rabbit hole that I've been emailing the manufacturers of the bags (3 different companies) to understand this better. 

Take a bag and fill it with slightly humid air. Put in your hygrometer and seal it up. What do you think happens in just a week? I doubled sealed both ends, humidity dropped all the way down to 60 (was 91 during sealing) in a 40 percent environment.

Running another test with a hygrometer in a box of cigars (took a cigar out, put the unit in) and waiting a bit to see what happens there. The box, a box that was a dud (hence leaving it to being a test box) is sitting in 40% humidity while I sealed it at 71%. Will be interesting to see what the result will be.

Video on all this is coming soon.

I‘ll be very interested to see the outcome of this. Would the outside temp affect the rh within the vacuum sealed bag?


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[gormag38]

9 hours ago, Monterey said:

Running another test with a hygrometer in a box of cigars (took a cigar out, put the unit in) and waiting a bit to see what happens there. The box, a box that was a dud (hence leaving it to being a test box) is sitting in 40% humidity while I sealed it at 71%. Will be interesting to see what the result will be.

I too would be interested in seeing this. As someone who has just started to vacuum seal a few boxes in my collection I'm curious how the outside environment plays a role. My thinking was that the bags were pretty damn impermeable but maybe that's not the case? 

[Monterey]

13 hours ago, Domsday said:

I‘ll be very interested to see the outcome of this. Would the outside temp affect the rh within the vacuum sealed bag?

 

9 hours ago, gormag38 said:

 thinking was that the bags were pretty damn impermeable but maybe that's not the case? 

I'm adjusting for temperature. I only compared readings when the temp was the same. What was fascinating is that the knockoff bags are better then the foodsaver bags. I got the material makeup of each bag and have gone deeper into what that means in my video.

What is unknown, by that I mean still under testing, is if the statement holds true when you do as much of a vacuum as possible. Luckily for me, I always sealed as hard as I could without crushing. That is why I said that the "seal is the most important thing"  as not being entirely true.  it is the vacuum. You must pull as much air out as you can. By doing that you create an environment that won't allow any air exchange. Letting my test box spend 2 more weeks in this experiment before confirming.  I would love to do a longer test, but the longest I can do is based on how long a battery will last inside my hygrometer.

I have another more extreme test going on as well. More on that soon

A big issue on permeable is the use of nylon in the bags. Foodsaver uses a high amount of it.  They do it to make the bag stronger, but nylon is not good for blocking air exchange. The knockoff brands don't have nearly as much which makes their product a better barrier for air exchange.  It's all about the % of polyurethane they use. Wishdirect, my preferred brand, has the highest.  Hoping to find a brand that has an even higher percent know after my research.

p.s.  Never put boveda in a vacuum seal.

[Monterey]

I just concluded test #2 (of 4). On the left side of the picture is the outside conditions low 80's, humidity around 45. On the right hand side is a double sealed  bag with minimal air. When I started this the bag was at 96% humidity at a similar temp. Humidity is leaking. That is why a seal is not enough. My other two tests will confirm more on this subject.

[TheGipper]

4 hours ago, Monterey said:

Humidity is leaking.

Doubtful, unless you're using really bad bags. And yes, the FoodSaver bags aren't the best ones, but they don't exchange water vapor at the rate you are suggesting.

I think your experiment is not correctly designed. You are measuring different pressures and thinking RH is a correct, static measure of water vapor. I don't think it is.

I don't wish to get into yet another internet argument with someone who hasn't been vacuum sealing at all or as long as I have, where they tell me my results over 20 years aren't possible. So that's all I will say in this thread.

[Monterey]

1 hour ago, TheGipper said:

Doubtful, unless you're using really bad bags.  And yes, the FoodSaver bags aren't the best ones, but they don't exchange water vapor at the rate you are suggesting.

I think your experiment is not correctly designed.  You are measuring different pressures and thinking RH is a correct, static measure of water vapor.  I don't think it is.

I don't wish to get into yet another internet argument with someone who hasn't been vacuum sealing at all or as long as I have, where they tell me my results over 20 years aren't possible.  So that's all I will say in this thread.

I've been vacuum sealing since 2008. I have over 400 boxes sealed. I've done my homework and am doing many experiments. If you want to ignore the results or try to blame variables (that aren't accurate) then so be it. I do my best to contribute my knowledge on the subject and have spent incredibly amount of time doing it, researching it and testing it. To my knowledge, nobody has spent more effort in understanding the subject. And yes, they exchange vapor as I suggest. I suggest if you disagree, run your own tests and report back. I look forward to seeing that.

 

[TheGipper]

41 minutes ago, Monterey said:

I suggest if you disagree, run your own tests and report back.

I've been running something better than "tests" for 20 years.

I have reported back, often, in various threads here and elsewhere, that I get good results.

Without fail, many people in these threads then proceed to tell me why I'm wrong, and are quite insistent about it. I get tired of it, so all I can do is shrug and say, "okay, whatever".

 

[El Presidente]

Gents, you wouldn't scratch your left nut over the issue. 

Don't get me wrong, it is very interesting. However, most of us here have enough miles on the clock to appreciate real world results, personal bias, science, theory and an ongoing mix of all of the above. 

 

[RDB]

The Internet: I’m doing a thing! Let me tell you about it. Don’t argue!

Me: Ok.

[Monterey]

4 hours ago, TheGipper said:

I've been running something better than "tests" for 20 years.

I have reported back, often, in various threads here and elsewhere, that I get good results.

Without fail, many people in these threads then proceed to tell me why I'm wrong, and are quite insistent about it. I get tired of it, so all I can do is shrug and say, "okay, whatever".

 

I actually value your opinion. Like myself, you are I have done it for a long time and we have to deal with people telling us we are wrong. Mostly from those that never do it. I think in general what you observe is correct. I'm running tests now to show that in a full vacuum that there is no air exchange. If you leave a little bit of room for air, there will be air exchange. As I said, I'll know more shortly with tests.  But like yourself, in actuality, vacuum sealing achieves what we are intending. I'm just finding it interesting that the bags are not nearly as vapor proof as I once believed.  All because the manufactures are putting an X amount of nylon (for strength) in  their formula and nylon is a poor barrier. 

[TheGipper]

So let me try to advance this topic with a visual example of why I'm dismissive of these experiments or tests that (in my opinion) we may misinterpret as showing high degree of permeability of water vapor or just air through these vacuum seal bags.

Below is one of my Boveda-in-the-bag experiments that I still have going. Photo taken just a few minutes ago. I chose this box just because it happened to be near the top of one of my long term aging Rubberdors.

A HDM Palmas Extra box. POU DIC 12 box code.  Purchased February 2014.  Vacuum sealed about 6 months after that. So it has been in vacuum seal for nearly 10 years.

Note the bag is tight against the box.  There is no slack. I can feel through the bag that the Boveda is still soft. And this is even using my less-preferred FoodSaver manufactured bag.

That bag is as tight today as the moment I hit the seal button on the sealer 10 years ago.

The tighness/lack of slack of this box is typical for all my long term aging boxes. In fact, once I vacuum seal a box, I try to remember to check the bag for increased slack after a few weeks/months. If they are loose it is because the seal line is imperfect - usually this is due to a small wrinkle in the seal edge. And so sometimes you get a bad seal and it becomes necessary to re-seal the box.

But boxes with a good seal stay like this.  For years, for decades.

This is why I conclude there is close to zero H2O vapor exchange. If smaller air molecules like N2 or O2 are not getting through the bag (which I think we can conclude given the bag is still tight after 10 years), then larger H2O molecules are not getting through either.

[Monterey]

2 hours ago, TheGipper said:

This is why I conclude there is close to zero H2O vapor exchange.  If smaller air molecules like N2 or O2 are not getting through the bag (which I think we can conclude given the bag is still tight after 10 years), then larger H2O molecules are not getting through either.

Totally agree. The key here is the tight vacuum job you did. Had their been slack, water vapor could exchange.  The main story here is that when you vacuum up a bag, it is critical to get as much air out as you can. Keep in mind there is a big difference between water molecules and water vapor. Water vapor can get thru.  But if you do the right job, there is no no air to exchange. Which is why I say the key to vacuum sealing is in the vacuum job.  Nice and tight, no box squishing

[PigFish]

Gentlemen… I am one of those that thinks bagging is folly. With that said, let me offer you a suggestion. I know a lot about psychrometrics. My thoughts on precision storage are also considered folly by others. Like you, I frankly don’t care about the opinions of others!

Why not seal a cigar in a bag. The vacuum does not much matter. Weigh the assembly with a precision scale. Let it sit in various environments for periods of time and reweigh it. The migration of the captured water will result in changes in the mass.

Try not to touch it with your hands. And don’t let dust settle on it. Now you will know for sure.

Cheers!

[ShaazK]

None of this is believable at all until Bill Nye the Science guy confirms it


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[BrightonCorgi]

I've tried one box from the vacuum sealing and it worked out great. Granted the room I store the vacuum sealed boxes is ~70RH.