Boveda in a vacuum pack

[Monterey]

9 hours ago, PigFish said:

Why not seal a cigar in a bag. The vacuum does not much matter. Weigh the assembly with a precision scale. Let it sit in various environments for periods of time and reweigh it. The migration of the captured water will result in changes in the mass.

Somewhat similar test is already in progress. 2 bags, each weighing 68 grams. Both at full capacity. One is vacuum sealed tight, the other has some, not a lot, of air in it. Sitting in 40% ambient. What will they weigh in a month from now??? 2 points here, does any moisture leave, if it does, does the vacuum matter. Therefore, does it matter if you leave any air in your vacuum seal. Time shall tell.

[Uwiik]

18 hours ago, Monterey said:

Somewhat similar test is already in progress. 2 bags, each weighing 68 grams. Both at full capacity. One is vacuum sealed tight, the other has some, not a lot, of air in it. Sitting in 40% ambient. What will they weigh in a month from now??? 2 points here, does any moisture leave, if it does, does the vacuum matter. Therefore, does it matter if you leave any air in your vacuum seal. Time shall tell.

This is awesome, please keep us updated.

What is the minimum age of each box before you vacuum it up? I don’t vacuum anything below 12 months old, but I also heard 5 years of age is best before vacuuming? 

[Monterey]

6 hours ago, Uwiik said:

This is awesome, please keep us updated.

What is the minimum age of each box before you vacuum it up? I don’t vacuum anything below 12 months old, but I also heard 5 years of age is best before vacuuming? 

5 years, no! Mind you if you had a box that was 5 years old and you weren't going to smoke it right away, vacuum up. But no need to wait 5 years.

As for when to age, tricky question. I started my vacuum journey with Non-Cubans. Mostly because they were ready to smoke and didn't benefit that much from aging. I would vacuum those up 30-60 days after I got them. Longer if it was shipped slowly during the hot dry season, less time to acclimate during more favorable shipping weather.

With Cubans it was always 1 year from box date, or 60-90 days post receipt (longer shipping time frames for me, so more time to acclimate first) if I received a box that was already a year old.

What is complex is today's Cubans. I know nothing about that. I haven't purchased a  box of Cubans in over 2 years (thank god for stockpiling pre-cigar inflation). Based on what I've heard, that Cubans are more ready-to-smoke early in the past year or so, I would think that they would need less time. 6 months post box date? Total guess. But I for sure would not do much time based on what I've heard. Waiting 5 years on cigars that are ready to go with say 6 months of age would be unwise in my opinion. Cigars still age in a vacuum seal, just very slowly. Cubans having less aging potential has been a talking point since they made changes back in 2002, so who knows. Maybe today's Cubans will still age fine. Everyone was wrong back then.

The results of the Boveda tests will be part of my upcoming video. 

[MossybackR]

14 hours ago, Monterey said:

those up 30-60 days after I got them. Longer if it was shipped slowly during the hot dry season, less time to acclimate during more favorable shipping weather.

With Cubans it was always 1 year from box date, or 60-90 days post receipt (longer shipping time frames for me, so more time to acclimate first) if I received a box that was already a year old.

And yet in a vacuum, cigars theoretically shouldn’t age  🤔

On 8/2/2024 at 10:53 PM, PigFish said:

Gentlemen… I am one of those that thinks bagging is folly.

Ahhh…I was wondering where Pigfish was.

[Bijan]

3 minutes ago, MossybackR said:

And yet in a vacuum, cigars theoretically shouldn’t age  🤔

By that logic wine shouldn't age.

[Uwiik]

14 hours ago, Monterey said:

5 years, no! Mind you if you had a box that was 5 years old and you weren't going to smoke it right away, vacuum up. But no need to wait 5 years.

As for when to age, tricky question. I started my vacuum journey with Non-Cubans. Mostly because they were ready to smoke and didn't benefit that much from aging. I would vacuum those up 30-60 days after I got them. Longer if it was shipped slowly during the hot dry season, less time to acclimate during more favorable shipping weather.

With Cubans it was always 1 year from box date, or 60-90 days post receipt (longer shipping time frames for me, so more time to acclimate first) if I received a box that was already a year old.

What is complex is today's Cubans. I know nothing about that. I haven't purchased a  box of Cubans in over 2 years (thank god for stockpiling pre-cigar inflation). Based on what I've heard, that Cubans are more ready-to-smoke early in the past year or so, I would think that they would need less time. 6 months post box date? Total guess. But I for sure would not do much time based on what I've heard. Waiting 5 years on cigars that are ready to go with say 6 months of age would be unwise in my opinion. Cigars still age in a vacuum seal, just very slowly. Cubans having less aging potential has been a talking point since they made changes back in 2002, so who knows. Maybe today's Cubans will still age fine. Everyone was wrong back then.

The results of the Boveda tests will be part of my upcoming video. 

Thanks for the detailed explanations, much appreciated. I think I will stick with 1 year post date before doing any vacuum. Today's Cuban IMO are awesome, I have yet to get plugged stick from post 2020 box. Almost all of my problematic boxes are from 2016-2019 period and judging from what I smoke, IMO today's Cuban will benefit really greatly from vacuum as the modern post 2020 roll are not as tight as the older ones. Some even draw like NC thus making me suspect that it will not age long term that well when exposed to air circulation compared to the older production. 

Due to an ugly looking vacuum job, last night I had to rip it open to fix the 2 week old vacuum from both my Lusitania GR and Sir Winston GR. I giggled like a little girl for a good minute from the aroma being exuded from the freshly ripped bag, it was crazy strong and aromatic and it was only from 2 weeks of vacuum. I was paranoid for a while with these two expensive boxes (I actually made a thread about this) because previously I couldn't smell anything much when opening the box, last night I finally had my peace knowing what vacuum can do to that hidden aroma. 

8 hours ago, MossybackR said:

And yet in a vacuum, cigars theoretically shouldn’t age  🤔

I smoke pipe too and collect old tins, the vacuum is crazy tight with those tins. I can vouch that they definitely age gracefully under vacuum.

[Uwiik]

@Monterey mate, just wondering at your setup? I set mine at 65-67RH/17C before I vacuum it up, smoking setup is at 62-63RH/17C. I find my cigar is a lot more aromatic at 17C than 19C at the same 62-63RH. 

[Monterey]

11 hours ago, Uwiik said:

@Monterey mate, just wondering at your setup? I set mine at 65-67RH/17C before I vacuum it up, smoking setup is at 62-63RH/17C. I find my cigar is a lot more aromatic at 17C than 19C at the same 62-63RH. 

62/62. Though I wish I could drop the temp a tad. 62 is as low as I can go. You are better off at lower readings for long term vacuuming.

[Uwiik]

18 hours ago, Monterey said:

62/62. Though I wish I could drop the temp a tad. 62 is as low as I can go. You are better off at lower readings for long term vacuuming.

My AC only goes down to 63.5F, such a bummer, so I have to up RH to 65-67. I will get better AC soon that can go down to 61F, no need to reopen/reseal everything and readjust things, right? 

[Monterey]

10 hours ago, Uwiik said:

My AC only goes down to 63.5F, such a bummer, so I have to up RH to 65-67. I will get better AC soon that can go down to 61F, no need to reopen/reseal everything and readjust things, right? 

You don't have to up anything, you are overthinking things. Cigars just age slower at lower readings it seems. I would never, even for ready to smoke cigars, ever go above 65 humidity for any reason. No need to reopen and reseal. Even at 65 degrees I would have kept the cigars at 65% or lower humidity though. 67 humidity in a vacuum seal is not advised. 

[MossybackR]

On 8/4/2024 at 8:35 AM, Bijan said:

By that logic wine shouldn't age.

Well, most wines age through corks and the air that is in the bottle. The use of vacuum devices (vacu-vine, etc.) delay the aging process.

[ubiquito]

4 hours ago, MossybackR said:

Well, most wines age through corks and the air that is in the bottle.  The use of vacuum devices (vacu-vine, etc.) delay the aging process.

Yes - natural cork is somewhat gas permeable and allows some exchange.

[Uwiik]

On 8/6/2024 at 12:12 AM, Monterey said:

You don't have to up anything, you are overthinking things. Cigars just age slower at lower readings it seems. I would never, even for ready to smoke cigars, ever go above 65 humidity for any reason. No need to reopen and reseal. Even at 65 degrees I would have kept the cigars at 65% or lower humidity though. 67 humidity in a vacuum seal is not advised. 

Awesome! With my current consumption rate, I do have enough stock for more than a decade and still growing, so I do want to slow down aging significantly. Most of mine were at 66 when sealed, I won’t worry about it then. Thanks so much for the knowledge!! Appreciate it!

[Bijan]

7 hours ago, MossybackR said:

Well, most wines age through corks and the air that is in the bottle. The use of vacuum devices (vacu-vine, etc.) delay the aging process.

Only plastic corks apparently. Regular corks shouldn't let any air in unless shrunk or damaged:

https://www.jjbuckley.com/wine-knowledge/blog/9-things-you-should-know-about-corks-screw-caps-and-wine-storage/980

Some oxygen is released from the cork itself within the first bit after sealing (about 2.5mg).

Screw caps don't introduce any oxygen.

[Monterey]

On 8/7/2024 at 3:34 PM, MossybackR said:

Well, most wines age through corks and the air that is in the bottle. The use of vacuum devices (vacu-vine, etc.) delay the aging process.

No, that is not accurate. Cigars age in a vacuum, move on

23 hours ago, ubiquito said:

Yes - natural cork is somewhat gas permeable and allows some exchange.

No, it doesn't, read point 4 of Bijan's link. Any air exchange, which only happens when there are cork issues, would destroy the wine.

[ubiquito]

16 hours ago, Monterey said:

No it doesn't, read point 4 of Bijan's link. Any air exchange, which only happens when there are cork issues, would destroy the wine.

Ah right. There is some oxygen exchange but not due to permeability of the cork to the outside. I found this:

Oxygen ingress with natural corks is primarily a result of diffusion.  A typical 44mm cork contains an estimated at 3.5ml of oxygen.  When the cork is compressed the internal air pressure increases to between 6 and 9 atmospheres.  This establishes a pressure imbalance that is solved by the gradual equalization of gasses between cork and headspace.

• The exchange of gasses explains why studies of oxygen ingress show that bottles with natural cork “pick up” a small amount of oxygen over the first 6-9 months of aging.  After that, oxygen ingress is no longer significant (the referenced study ran for 36 months). 

  Variations in oxygen diffusion between corks appear in the first six months of storage and likely reflect differences in cellular structures.  After the initial diffusion period, additional variation was not observed.

[Monterey]

16 hours ago, ubiquito said:

• Variations in oxygen diffusion between corks appear in the first six months of storage and likely reflect differences in cellular structures.  After the initial diffusion period, additional variation was not observed.

Exactly my point. Cork allows no air to enter from the outside to the inside, therefore it is NOT permeable. The oxygen was in the cork. In fairness, this is not my area of expertise and I'm quoting that article as if was 100% true, because everything on the internet is true.

My point is always cigars anyhow, I don't drink alcohol.  

[BrightonCorgi]

Wines that are totally air tight can end having banana flavors that are considered a fault. I forget the technical term, but someone else will be sure to chime in.

[Bijan]

2 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Wines that are totally air tight can end having banana flavors that are considered a fault. I forget the technical term, but someone else will be sure to chime in.

It seems that's related to how the fermentation is done and not storage:
https://winemakermag.com/wine-wizard/1762-carbonic-maceration

[BrightonCorgi]

6 hours ago, Bijan said:

It seems that's related to how the fermentation is done and not storage:
https://winemakermag.com/wine-wizard/1762-carbonic-maceration

I have seen it in older vintage ports. One bottle had it and another did not of the same port sampled on different occasions.

[Bijan]

1 hour ago, BrightonCorgi said:

I have seen it in older vintage ports.  One bottle had it and another did not of the same port sampled on different occasions.

That's the only oxygen related cause of the flavor I found other causes were low temperature fermentation and spoilage:
https://winemakersacademy.com/wine-smells-bananas/

[BrightonCorgi]

4 hours ago, Bijan said:

That's the only oxygen related cause of the flavor I found other causes were low temperature fermentation and spoilage:
https://winemakersacademy.com/wine-smells-bananas/

I am pretty sure the reasons for variance in my experience was from the corks. Corks are the bane of wine making, especially in port. Ironic since Portugal produces most corks. 

Was told a while back that the cork does have some oxygen exchange but at a minute level that allow wine to do what it does. Then again, many ports and wines are foiled and then wax sealed, so how much minute oxygen exchange is at that point? One hand the wax is merely to keep the cork from falling out decades later. If some producers like Ferreira, if it weren't for wax the wine would leak itself empty.

[theTXpanda]

On 8/2/2024 at 10:11 AM, TheGipper said:

So let me try to advance this topic with a visual example of why I'm dismissive of these experiments or tests that (in my opinion) we may misinterpret as showing high degree of permeability of water vapor or just air through these vacuum seal bags.

Below is one of my Boveda-in-the-bag experiments that I still have going. Photo taken just a few minutes ago. I chose this box just because it happened to be near the top of one of my long term aging Rubberdors.

A HDM Palmas Extra box. POU DIC 12 box code.  Purchased February 2014.  Vacuum sealed about 6 months after that. So it has been in vacuum seal for nearly 10 years.

Note the bag is tight against the box.  There is no slack. I can feel through the bag that the Boveda is still soft. And this is even using my less-preferred FoodSaver manufactured bag.

That bag is as tight today as the moment I hit the seal button on the sealer 10 years ago.

The tighness/lack of slack of this box is typical for all my long term aging boxes. In fact, once I vacuum seal a box, I try to remember to check the bag for increased slack after a few weeks/months. If they are loose it is because the seal line is imperfect - usually this is due to a small wrinkle in the seal edge. And so sometimes you get a bad seal and it becomes necessary to re-seal the box.

But boxes with a good seal stay like this.  For years, for decades.

This is why I conclude there is close to zero H2O vapor exchange. If smaller air molecules like N2 or O2 are not getting through the bag (which I think we can conclude given the bag is still tight after 10 years), then larger H2O molecules are not getting through either.

This is really quite incredible. Very interesting topic that I had never thought much about. I use vacuum sealing like crazy in my kitchen. Fascinating to think about cigar based use cases.

[gormag38]

On 8/2/2024 at 3:50 PM, Monterey said:

Somewhat similar test is already in progress. 2 bags, each weighing 68 grams. Both at full capacity. One is vacuum sealed tight, the other has some, not a lot, of air in it. Sitting in 40% ambient. What will they weigh in a month from now??? 2 points here, does any moisture leave, if it does, does the vacuum matter. Therefore, does it matter if you leave any air in your vacuum seal. Time shall tell.

What did you ever find out about this brother? Any insights that are worth sharing? 

[Monterey]

On 12/13/2024 at 1:13 AM, gormag38 said:

What did you ever find out about this brother? Any insights that are worth sharing? 

I have banned myself from talking about this subject for one year. Mental health break. The answer you seek is at the 1 hour 4 minute mark.  I will add the results today are the same.