EAR: D4 90's V D4 Today.

[El Presidente]

EAR= Email Assistance Required. 

 

I know there will only be a few of you that can assist with this one but I would very much appreciate your input as more opinions are better than simply mine. 

 

"Rob if I heard correctly on zoom recently, you recommended to a member to try 2023 D4 as opposed to chasing D4 from the early 90's. 

I wanted to ask you, what are the perceived taste differences between D4's from the 90's to those of today/2022/23/?

[NSXCIGAR]

I only had a handful of D4s in the 95-97 period and my experience with them was that they were extremely strong. Stronger that I prefer and I do like strong but CCs in those days could be quite strong. I also didn't like Monte 2 and BCE for that reason as well. I much preferred Monte 1, 3-4 and BRC & BCG. 

In fact, I also recall reading that D4 was still thought of as an "insider's cigar" and wasn't nearly as popular as it is today until well into the 90s. Its strength until the mid-90s may have been a large factor in that. 

I believe I read (possibly MRN) that D4 was the same blend as the Lusi from its introduction in 1975 to 1995-96. I never had the opportunity to try a Lusi in the 95-97 period so I can't comment on that but I have heard the Lusi was also extremely strong in those days. 

[BossHogg]

This is before my time in the cigar world, but I'm looking forward to hearing the experiences of those that it was not.

[Justins123]

Yes, extremely strong. I can’t say I tried all the pre-97 Cubans with the reputation for being strong, and everything was stronger in general, but they were among the stronger cigars. Also remember RyJ Tres Petit Coronas blowing my head off. 

[Justins123]

8 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

In fact, I also recall reading that D4 was still thought of as an "insider's cigar" and wasn't nearly as popular as it is today until well into the 90s. Its strength until the mid-90s may have been a large factor in that.

I think that is 100% true. Back then, other than the public’s general awareness of Cohiba, I only recall specific Cubans being well regarded because they showed up with high scores in CA. RyJ Churchill, Monte no 2, and Punch Punch spring to mind. Then those with some real experience started participating in Internet forums (to the extent they existed back then.) I remember RAs in particular being thought of as the “insider's cigar.” 

[NSXCIGAR]

6 hours ago, Justins123 said:

I think that is 100% true. Back then, other than the public’s general awareness of Cohiba, I only recall specific Cubans being well regarded because they showed up with high scores in CA. RyJ Churchill, Monte no 2, and Punch Punch spring to mind. Then those with some real experience started participating in Internet forums (to the extent they existed back then.) I remember RAs in particular being thought of as the “insider's cigar.” 

I would have to agree. Brands outside of the famous major brands were often very little known. Totally agree on RA for example. When I started smoking CCs in the mid-90s I never saw any RA at the shop and in fact never tried one until the early 2000s. 

And as far as the major "global" brands trends were very different. A lot of the cigars sold under these brands were the machine mades and smaller cigars like PCs and TPCs. For Partagas, for example probably half of the cigars sold were the MMs and another 40% were PCs, Coronas and Lonsdales. D4, Churchills and Lusi were not big sellers.

I'd really credit the CoRo for making Robustos trendy in the late 80s/early 90s. I recall people like Joe Pesci and Ridley Scott being seen with a CoRo. It only makes sense the D4 would follow as it was the only other major brand Robusto.

Interestingly I recall quite a few Dunhill Cabinetta boxes still available in the 90s for very reasonable prices, around $500. An indication that they were not very popular in the 1980s even with the growing popularity of Robustos in general. 

[Li Bai]

I began smoking cigars in 2000, 2001 maybe so I can't really be of any help here but I'm in touch with older cigar smokers and I guess the situation was a bit different in Europe back in those days.

My understanding is Partagas, H.Upmann, Montecristo and RyJ were already well known brands in the community in the early or mid-90's.

Regarding the D4 it was indeed seen as a very powerful cigar often compared to the smoother and more flavourful RASS.

Again, this comes from the archives of the french forum I'm from (dating back to 2000) and from lots of discussions I've had with friends about "the former D4", not from personal experience.

[NSXCIGAR]

2 hours ago, Li Bai said:

Regarding the D4 it was indeed seen as a very powerful cigar often compared to the smoother and more flavourful RASS.

And even the BRC which was nothing close to the D4 in terms of strength. The BRC was my favorite cigar in the 90s (although RyJ Ex 4 was right up there). Incredible balance of woodiness, raisin and a very light touch of earth. Probably the most refined Boli along with the Inmensas which were not as complex. The BCE was a powerhouse but not quite to the level of the D4. I'd have to say the 95-96 D4 was probably the strongest CC I ever smoked. By 97-98 the strength had come way down and by 2001 it got to about where it is today which is about true medium or under medium by the old standard. 

[Li Bai]

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

The BRC was my favorite cigar in the 90s (although RyJ Ex 4 was right up there).

That's what I've been told too.

The BRC's good reputation remains today but the EX 4 doesn't seem to be much on anybody's radar anymore, I've never had one tbh.

[ha_banos]

8 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I only had a handful of D4s in the 95-97 period and my experience with them was that they were extremely strong. Stronger that I prefer and I do like strong but CCs in those days could be quite strong. I also didn't like Monte 2 and BCE for that reason as well. I much preferred Monte 1, 3-4 and BRC & BCG. 

In fact, I also recall reading that D4 was still thought of as an "insider's cigar" and wasn't nearly as popular as it is today until well into the 90s. Its strength until the mid-90s may have been a large factor in that. 

I believe I read (possibly MRN) that D4 was the same blend as the Lusi from its introduction in 1975 to 1995-96. I never had the opportunity to try a Lusi in the 95-97 period so I can't comment on that but I have heard the Lusi was also extremely strong in those days. 

There was very recently a cab of 99 Lusi's available through a retail vendor here - FP6-NNSC. I bought 5 as did some others. Smoked one so far. Very nice, I'd say mild to medium, no more. It's only a small sample I know! 

D4 was one of the earliest cigars I had. I do recall I had to sit down and rest a bit. Couldn't finish it. So that stuck. Around 2005. So could have been a late 90s dated. I was very slack with notes in my youth!

 

[Chitmo]

I was a teenager in the 90s, just sayin!

[KCCubano]

10 hours ago, ha_banos said:

There was very recently a cab of 99 Lusi's available through a retail vendor here - FP6-NNSC. I bought 5 as did some others. Smoked one so far. Very nice, I'd say mild to medium, no more. It's only a small sample I know! 

D4 was one of the earliest cigars I had. I do recall I had to sit down and rest a bit. Couldn't finish it. So that stuck. Around 2005. So could have been a late 90s dated. I was very slack with notes in my youth!

Those 99 Lusis would have been FPG-NNSC. Francisco Perez German. Partagas Factory. I had 97 and 99 Lusi. 97s much much stronger. 

[MrBirdman]

To the comments about the D4 being an insiders cigar, Simon Chase told a story about how in the mid-to-late 80’s, the global production of D4s was 5,000 sticks per year. Any other source I’d balk, but for those unfamiliar Simon was a legendary expert in the history of Habanos. 

[Fireball]

What year did Cuba switch the type of tobacco they plant? I thought it was late 90s. 

[ha_banos]

1 hour ago, KCCubano said:

Those 99 Lusis would have been FPG-NNSC. Francisco Perez German. Partagas Factory. I had 97 and 99 Lusi. 97s much much stronger. 

Thanks for the correction. And interesting. Crossover of blenders?

[NSXCIGAR]

On 7/13/2024 at 3:29 AM, ha_banos said:

There was very recently a cab of 99 Lusi's available through a retail vendor here - FP6-NNSC. I bought 5 as did some others. Smoked one so far. Very nice, I'd say mild to medium, no more. It's only a small sample I know! 

I can confirm that by 98 Lusi had been toned down significantly. A few friends went in on a 50 cab of 98s and kept it in the locker at the shop. I had several out of it from 1999-2002 and they were quite smooth and mellow. So although I never had a pre-98 Lusi it's well known that they were powerhouse cigars until the 95-96 blend changes. 

[zeedubbya]

Probably already answered this, but I’ve smoked D4 since 2002. I recall smoking Lusis and D4 from the 90s, and they were most assuredly powerhouse cigars. Lusi not as much as D4. I would recommend to go grab an LFD Double Ligero and imagine its strength with a Cuban profile. I’ve smoked D4 from the 90s more recently and they are still powerhouses. Age has mellowed them some but not much. Also, myself and @JohnInCleveland smoked some Winnies from 94 not that long ago and they were literal ass kickers. If you like current D4, Rob is so right, don’t chase the 90s. The odds you’re going to get a perfectly stored cigar from the era is slim. Even if you do, change your expectations. So many people long for the “heyday” of CCs, but D4 from 2004-2006 and 2014-2015 are better. For sure. IMO of course. Fresh D4 from 2004 was one of the best cigars I’ve ever smoked.
 

@LizardGizmo and crew had EL factory manager tell them some interesting things on podcast and the one which was very INTERESTING was his recommendation to smoke the “stronger” blends sooner because they were meant to be this way...very interesting I thought.  As we all try and age out the strength from Party and Boli, we should be smoking them! Makes a lot of sense.  

[Fugu]

21 hours ago, zeedubbya said:

@LizardGizmo and crew had EL factory manager tell them some interesting things on podcast and the one which was very INTERESTING was his recommendation to smoke the “stronger” blends sooner because they were meant to be this way…very interesting I thought.

Not really a surprise to me…(that very statement and a controversial one of CA had been discussed here earlier this year).

Aging – for me at least – has never meant “aging out” the strength of a cigar, at least never been the motive behind it. While, true, it often comes as a consequence in Ligero-heavy blends.

[BrightonCorgi]

A friend has many cabs of Lusitanias in a locker in London from early 90's; perhaps older. I had one about 12 years ago and I did not think it was any "stronger" than the ones with bands.

[zeedubbya]

17 hours ago, Fugu said:

Not really a surprise to me…(that very statement and a controversial one of CA had been discussed here earlier this year).

Aging – for me at least – has never meant “aging out” the strength of a cigar, at least never been the motive behind it. While, true, it often comes as a consequence in Ligero-heavy blends.

I agree with you on this personally. My feelings on aging are to let the ammonia in the cigars settle. I also find great great joy in trying a cigar along the way. I hear a TON of talk about Upmann 2 and the ones from 2014 being stunners. Well…I have some from 2016 in humidor and they are like smoking air. I hope they are only in a “phase” because it was a fantastic cigar in 2017, let’s hope a couple more years puts some legs back on—like with some Connie 1 I have from 2016. We shall see.

15 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

A friend has many cabs of Lusitanias in a locker in London from early 90's; perhaps older. I had one about 12 years ago and I did not think it was any "stronger" than the one's with bands.

My experience with Lusi is they are far less strong than maybe any Partagas. I have a few from the mid 90s, bandless in my humidor…maybe they need set on fire. In the early 2000s they were a fairly strong cigar but nothing compared to say a Coronas Extra, which would put a nice sickness on you in a hurry. Min Ron Nee even mentions a blend change in 1995 to the cigar. I would agree with the assessment of a Lusi being like a D4 BUT only when you get to the size of a D4. I personally recall the SLR Serie A being a pretty strong cigar, even though no other people’s experiences reflect this. Too bad it’s gone.  

[NSXCIGAR]

15 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

A friend has many cabs of Lusitanias in a locker in London from early 90's; perhaps older. I had one about 12 years ago and I did not think it was any "stronger" than the one's with bands.

I don't believe I ever heard Lusi was one of the cigars different in cab vs DB. Maybe only about 50% of cigars offered in both formats were different.

[Fugu]

7 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I don't believe I ever heard Lusi was one of the cigars different in cab vs DB. Maybe only about 50% of cigars offered in both formats were different.

@BrightonCorgi could've also meant older vs younger (>2004) cab Lusi. That's how I read it.

[BrightonCorgi]

11 hours ago, Fugu said:

@BrightonCorgi could've also meant older vs younger (>2004) cab Lusi. That's how I read it.

Correct. There is no difference in blend between 10-25-50 count presentations.