How much Tax is too much?

[99call]

9 hours ago, Li Bai said:

120000 euros a year definitely don't make you belong to the upper class here nowadays.

No my point, was that upper middle classes idea of being squeezed in there lifestyle across the board, bares no comparison to how the under-classes are squeezed. You say, they worry about "buying a car" for example. Firstly, where are they living? are they renting? Have they leveraged themselves up to the hilt on a large mortgage? How many kids do they have?  How many holidays are they going on a year? How many pets do they have? Also I know a lot of peoples idea of '0' is not my idea of '0'. 

-  "If nothing changes, i'm going to be wiped out in a few months time".

- "wiped out!!!!?????,  like you will have NOTHING!!!!????",

- "well obviously I will still have my savings .......and my bonds.......and my ISA's.......and my inheritance......but i'm not touching that!"        

I just think the upper and upper middle classes scream bloody murder when they are squeezed...that does not mean they are being squeezed hard, rather they are just more indignant about it, and are not used to making compromises. 

Again, my first port of call would be the ultra wealthy, not necessarily middle class families. 

[teamrandr]

Loaded question. 

[Li Bai]

8 hours ago, 99call said:

No my point, was that upper middle classes idea of being squeezed in there lifestyle across the board, bares no comparison to how the under-classes are squeezed. You say, they worry about "buying a car" for example. Firstly, where are they living? are they renting? Have they leveraged themselves up to the hilt on a large mortgage? How many kids do they have?  How many holidays are they going on a year? How many pets do they have? Also I know a lot of peoples idea of '0' is not my idea of '0'. 

-  "If nothing changes, i'm going to be wiped out in a few months time".

- "wiped out!!!!?????,  like you will have NOTHING!!!!????",

- "well obviously I will still have my savings .......and my bonds.......and my ISA's.......and my inheritance......but i'm not touching that!"        

I just think the upper and upper middle classes scream bloody murder when they are squeezed...that does not mean they are being squeezed hard, rather they are just more indignant about it, and are not used to making compromises. 

Again, my first port of call would be the ultra wealthy, not necessarily middle class families. 

At the end of the day, to me it's not even related to how much money you make, it's much more about the ultra wealthy getting away with it every time.

Middle and middle-upper classes are always those being squeezed and for what exactly? Most would say they have a comfortable life but do they really ? It seems the more you work the more they take and it's infuriating.

I could paint the exact same situation here as in the UK, education, police, infrastructures, social security (one of our former gems in France only lives now in our memories), the more money they take from us the poorer the services it seems. 

I just don't seem to understand what you call under class or middle class families maybe you could enlighten me on that point.

[99call]

8 hours ago, Li Bai said:

the more money they take from us the poorer the services it seems. 

It's amazing how many Mafia based angles governments use with national services. In the UK the Tories say, "the NHS has never been given more money", which is true, even thought it doesn't match inflation. That said, the lions share goes through the front door of the NHS, and out the back door to privatised heath organisations like Bupa. Affectively privatisation by stealth.

It's just like this seen in Goodfellas.  

 

[BrightonCorgi]

I use to work in Singapore for a well known mining company and it is a great place to be. They tend to work you a bit too hard though.

There should be no income tax, just a national sales tax and fees where applicable. 

There's too much corruption, greed, and incompetence in government. If they took all of everyone's money and assets it still would not be enough.    

[Li Bai]

14 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

If they took all of everyone's money and assets it still would not be enough.

Very well said.

[Chitmo]

8 hours ago, 99call said:

No my point, was that upper middle classes idea of being squeezed in there lifestyle across the board, bares no comparison to how the under-classes are squeezed. You say, they worry about "buying a car" for example. Firstly, where are they living? are they renting? Have they leveraged themselves up to the hilt on a large mortgage? How many kids do they have?  How many holidays are they going on a year? How many pets do they have? Also I know a lot of peoples idea of '0' is not my idea of '0'. 

-  "If nothing changes, i'm going to be wiped out in a few months time".

- "wiped out!!!!?????,  like you will have NOTHING!!!!????",

- "well obviously I will still have my savings .......and my bonds.......and my ISA's.......and my inheritance......but i'm not touching that!"        

I just think the upper and upper middle classes scream bloody murder when they are squeezed...that does not mean they are being squeezed hard, rather they are just more indignant about it, and are not used to making compromises. 

Again, my first port of call would be the ultra wealthy, not necessarily middle class families. 

The problem with what you’re saying is that the vast majority of what you call upper middle class worked to gain that status. Trust fund babies rarely hold on to their money and are typically broke within a few years. If you think that having to casually cash out investments that were hard earned in order to balance things out for those that didn’t earn their keep you don’t understand how fractional reserve banking and capitalism works. Once you start distributing wealth to make things fair it becomes something different and then the real problems start. 

[99call]

7 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

There's too much corruption, greed, and incompetence in government

Its hopefully going to be a focus of our next government i.e. to rewrite the Nolan principles of leadership. "Selflessness, Integrity, Objectivity, Accountability, Openness, Honesty and Leadership".   

In the past the draw of being a politician may have been 60% public service 40% feathering your own nest with corruption.  Now with many it seems like 100% corruption, and the thought of public service an open joke.

7 hours ago, Chitmo said:

The problem with what you’re saying is that the vast majority of what you call upper middle class worked to gain that status. Trust fund babies rarely hold on to their money and are typically broke within a few years. If you think that having to casually cash out investments that were hard earned in order to balance things out for those that didn’t earn their keep you don’t understand how fractional reserve banking and capitalism works. Once you start distributing wealth to make things fair it becomes something different and then the real problems start. 

The point that I was trying to make (admittedly poorly) to Li Bai, was that people on £100k plus in the UK neither consider themselves poor or rich. Those who I know in that pay band merely communicate "everything is the same, just a little bit nicer".  That was my point, that in the UK the working class usually bare the brunt of tax rises and cuts, and are used to be stripped to the bone, the middle class are being squeezed at the moment and they are incensed, not because they are being cut deeper than the working classes, but rather, they are not used to genuinely having to do without stuff. The fat is there to be cut, they are just not used to having to look for it. 

On the point of 'trust fund babies' and 'self made man' as two groups. My experience (in the UK at least) is these are not two separate groups, rather the same person. Nearly everyone I know who earns over 100K in the UK, has wealthy parents, went to private school, was given a large cash bung entering the work force, or jobs in their parents company/family friend. deposit on a house etc. Some will freely admit to this "trust fund baby' some wont 'self made man'. 

I do know some genuinely self made people who started with very little, but I would say thats quite rare maybe 1-20. This isn't to say that privileged people do not work hard, a lot of them do, but making money from money is much easier than starting from scratch, and that was sort of my wider point about tax. Life shouldn't get progressively easier the wealthier you get, you shouldn't necessarily be lavished with more opportunity, simply because you've already had opportunity. 

This is just my lived experience in the UK, I'm not saying this is true of other countries. We have a very messed up,  entrenched class system here. Hopefully it's about to be undone.

[Chitmo]

I don’t have data to back up anything I’m about to say. My wife and I are pretty well off, I’m 42 and retired and she’s a partner in a law firm. Neither of us came from money. 22 years ago I was baking muffins in a coffee shop during the day and shovelling snow off the roof of the mall or bar tending at night. My wife was worked/student loaned her way through 3 degrees. Everyone else I personally know that has a good household income with the exception of one person, came from little to no means. Maybe the people I’m surrounded by are a by-product of how my journey has been. But from what I’ve seen the only way to become well off is to figure it out. At the end of the day money is a game, spend less than you make. And when you do spend, make sure it brings meaning to your life or makes you more money. Poor people tend to stay poor due to bad decisions, at least that’s the case with the ones in my family. If you have read it yet, check out the book “The psychology of money” it’s a good read and describes a lot of what I’m getting at better than I can. One of the saddest things I see from my kids friends is that they aspire to having all these “nice things”, the ironic part is that people that get ahead don’t waster their money on extravagant luxuries. They’re usually the folks driving a 10 year old Toyota and living in a 3 bedroom bungalow, buying clothing at Walmart. 

[Li Bai]

1 hour ago, 99call said:

This isn't to say that privileged people do not work hard, a lot of them do, but making money from money is much easier than starting from scratch, and that was sort of my wider point about tax.

Whether people have been financially helped or not, imo it's nobody's business as no one chooses how well off one is born.

 

36 minutes ago, Chitmo said:

Poor people tend to stay poor due to bad decisions, at least that’s the case with the ones in my family.

It's a bit harsh but there's some truth to it. That's like saying rich people tend to stay rich because they're financially smart but there are so many factors, luck included. I think the real problem is, once again, one's education (and i'm not talking about degrees here).

Anyway, my point in the beginning was that i just can't stand working more than half of my time to give it away through taxes.

[99call]

6 minutes ago, Li Bai said:

Whether people have been financially helped or not, imo it's nobody's business as no one chooses how well off one is born.

I agree with you. The only people I can't stand are people that have been given everything, lie about it for no reason, and try to invent some rags to riches story.

[rcarlson]

6 hours ago, 99call said:

Life shouldn't get progressively easier the wealthier you get,  you shouldn't necessarily be lavished with more opportunity, simply because you've already had opportunity. 

Why not?  

 

[99call]

1 minute ago, rcarlson said:

Why not?  

Because in the UK people create barriers of social mobility (once rich) wealth becomes entrenched. You do not end up with the brightest and best. You end up with someone's grandchild who's been vouched for by Uncle Bertie. It becomes a rigged game

Also vulture capitalism should not exist on the other axis. Businesses should not be created making money from people as they descend through society.

 

[JoeyBones777]

Appropriate taxation should be based on expectation of government services. This is different for many. I lean toward the "less is more" camp in government size and scope. With that in mind, a 15% flat tax above the poverty line or sales tax seems appropriate to me. Anything above that and I'm complaining.

[Chitmo]

4 hours ago, 99call said:

Because in the UK people create barriers of social mobility (once rich) wealth becomes entrenched. You do not end up with the brightest and best. You end up with someone's grandchild who's been vouched for by Uncle Bertie. It becomes a rigged game

Also vulture capitalism should not exist on the other axis. Businesses should not be created making money from people as they descend through society.

That may be the case in the UK, but it’s not true across the board. And speaking as someone that has become relatively wealthy, the whole idea is to make it bulletproof so that you don’t slip backwards. Learn how to play the game instead of complaining about the rules. 

[99call]

4 hours ago, Chitmo said:

Learn how to play the game instead of complaining about the rules

I'm happy with what I earn, and do not have a issue with wealth creation, people getting along etc. I do have an issue with a class system in this country which you simply do not understand. Much like I do not understand how your country works in that regard. 

Thanks for the tips.

[El Presidente]

8 hours ago, 99call said:

No my point, was that upper middle classes idea of being squeezed in there lifestyle across the board, bares no comparison to how the under-classes are squeezed. You say, they worry about "buying a car" for example. Firstly, where are they living? are they renting? Have they leveraged themselves up to the hilt on a large mortgage? How many kids do they have?  How many holidays are they going on a year? How many pets do they have? Also I know a lot of peoples idea of '0' is not my idea of '0'. 

-  "If nothing changes, i'm going to be wiped out in a few months time".

- "wiped out!!!!?????,  like you will have NOTHING!!!!????",

- "well obviously I will still have my savings .......and my bonds.......and my ISA's.......and my inheritance......but i'm not touching that!"        

I just think the upper and upper middle classes scream bloody murder when they are squeezed...that does not mean they are being squeezed hard, rather they are just more indignant about it, and are not used to making compromises. 

Again, my first port of call would be the ultra wealthy, not necessarily middle class families. 

Us V them. Again. 

Nothing like a little class warfare. 

We need to get away from the tropes. 

Money- Bad

Poor;- Lazy

Rich - Evil 

Endeavour-suspicious 

 

Wealth needs to be continuously created for the system we live in to work. Govts need to foster the environment for this to occur. Taxing/milking operational and entrepreneurial  enterprises (be they one man or 100,000) to an unreasonable extent is madness. They will simply underperform/undershoot their potential/close/relocate or pivot. 

[99call]

2 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Us V them. Again. 

Nothing like a little class warfare. 

Again. I don't know how many times I have to say it. I do not have any issues with people wanting wealth or growing wealth. I do have and issue with people installing structures to block opportunity for people outside their social strata. I will point out that goes both ways. If someone super privileged wants to...I don't know enjoy something like Knotting Hill Carnival. If someone who was working class sought to make them feel unwelcome, I would also hate that.

Social mobility should be fluid. It shouldn't be one cast of people set to succeed forever because they had concreted their hands on the levers of power, and set the game in their favour.

[El Presidente]

4 minutes ago, 99call said:

Again. I don't know how many times I have to say it. I do not have any issues with people wanting wealth or growing wealth.

That is rarely how it appears. 

6 minutes ago, 99call said:

I do have and issue with people installing structures to block opportunity for people outside their social strata. 

It sounds like "Game of Thrones".  There are tens of millions of "tradies" globally who are deservedly doing very bloody well right now. They took a punt, did a trade, do the hard work and are being rewarded in spades (excuse the pun).  From painters to plasterers to plumbers to bricklayers etc......there are no "blocking" of opportunities for them. 

 

11 minutes ago, 99call said:

Social mobility should be fluid.

Social mobility should be irrelevant. Economic mobility should be fluid. 

[Arabian]

XYZ country shouldn’t punish his, her or their company for their wealth, they will simply realize opportunities else where. Taxing people left and right will result in the state declining as Ibn Khaldun once wrote. 

[99call]

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

That is rarely how it appears

Well I apologise for that Rob, but I would add. Depending on the contributor. (In addition to me maybe not being clear enough) if people willingly misunderstand. You do end up in a trench defending and angle you haven't made in the first place

I agree with you on tradies. Those who I know have done incredibly well. And work all hours. 99% of them pay very little tax and work cash in hand, but let's not get into that...lol!.    

 

 

[BrightonCorgi]

1 hour ago, Arabian said:

XYZ country shouldn’t punish his, her or their company for their wealth, they will simply realize opportunities else where. Taxing people left and right will result in the state declining as Ibn Khaldun once wrote. 

Portugal is still feeling it from the Inquisition. The oppressed will take their wealth somewhere else.

[El Presidente]

9 minutes ago, 99call said:

I agree with you on tradies. Those who I know have done incredibly well. And work all hours.  99% of them pay very little tax and work cash in hand

If they are obtaining the majority of their payment "cash in hand" then it is an endemic UK structural problem. It certainly doesn't happen here 

I am all for Tradies getting some cashola. It is hard physical yakka and a little bit of tax free moola makes that pint go down all the sweeter. 

[99call]

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

I am all for Tradies getting some cashola. It is hard physical yakka and a little bit of tax free moola makes that pint go down all the sweeter

I would agree with you on that. Although my job is similarly physical and it's something I would never do, I do not bemoan it them. Tradies put their bodies on the line and for some it can be a very short career through injury. A little nest egg or beer money can come in handy

Interesting I thought Aussie would be the wild west with that sort of stuff. In the UK small jobs anything below £200 tradies will always angle for cash.

[teamrandr]

No one will ever be happy no matter the tax amount.