Apple Cancels Project Titan

[Fuzz]

After 10 long years, billions of dollars and not much to show for it, Apple finally kills off Project Titan, their EV that was supposed to take the EV market by storm. Constant revolving door leadership, no concrete plan what they actually wanted to build and deliver, no manufacturer locked in, and difficulties in fully autonomous driving has lead to constant delays in the project delivery.

No surprise that staff who survive the Project Titan layoffs are being moved over to generative AI development..

[Chitmo]

I’m curious to see where hydrogen ice goes to be honest, the big push for everyone to go electric seems to have major resistance. For me personally I’m not a car guy so I don’t care. My decision is strictly financial, and until the price of a EV is lower than my SUV + fuel cost I’m not switching. For most of my friends that are “Car guys” Electric cars have no soul, people have emotional attachments to vehicles like it or not and electric cars are sterile. 

[Bijan]

40 minutes ago, Chitmo said:

I’m curious to see where hydrogen ice goes

Hydrogen is not ice but fuel cells.

Think electric car with Prius acceleration...

Electric cars can be fun to drive.

Disliking electric cars because of lack of vroom vroom sound is like disliking SSDs or nvme in computers because of lack of hard disk tic tic tic.

Performance is a big part of soul.

[Chitmo]

4 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Hydrogen is not ice but fuel cells.

Think electric car with Prius acceleration...

Electric cars can be fun to drive.

Disliking electric cars because of lack of vroom vroom sound is like disliking SSDs or nvme in computers because of lack of hard disk tic tic tic.

Performance is a big part of soul.

Nope, pretty sure I meant what I said. Read somewhere recently about Kia and/or another company developing a hydrogen ice vehicle. Too lazy to dig it up, google is your friend

[Bijan]

6 minutes ago, Chitmo said:

Nope, pretty sure I meant what I said. Read somewhere recently about Kia and/or another company developing a hydrogen ice vehicle. Too lazy to dig it up, google is your friend

Thanks for the correction. That tech is not zero emissions even when hydrogen production is zero emissions, which it invariably isn't either.

Whether the performance is better than regular ice I don't know.

Edit: might make sense for trucks. I don't know.

[Chitmo]

7 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Thanks for the correction. That tech is not zero emissions even when hydrogen production is zero emissions, which it invariably isn't either.

Whether the performance is better than regular ice I don't know.

Edit: might make sense for trucks. I don't know.

None of it makes much sense to me, I’m not a car person and I don’t drive enough to have any meaningful impact on the atmosphere so I feel no guilt for my current vehicle situation. I like to know a little bit about a lot of things so I can small talk people on forums and my wife’s work events. Retirement at 41 is boring AF! I need to find a hobby or I figure I’ll be in jail maybe?! 😂 

[Hammer Smokin']

It's funny. I'm not big into cars, my truck pulls my boat, but I have a bunch of gear heads as friends. Almost all of them have moved to EV, not because they are cool, or easy to work with, or any other reason but they provide the fastest acceleration, which moves the heart. 

Also, tricking out and mod'ing the EV's are light years ahead of any ice technology. This makes younger gear heads completely forget about ICE.

[BrightonCorgi]

Would be better if Apple created a technology that could be sold/licensed into every car as a start. There's a lot of room for growth in automotive heads up displays.

[VeguerosMAN]

Tesla will dominate. It ain't so easy what Musk is doing. Other companies laughed at him and who's laughing now? 

[Fuzz]

7 hours ago, VeguerosMAN said:

Tesla will dominate. It ain't so easy what Musk is doing. Other companies laughed at him and who's laughing now? 

Tesla have been steadily losing market share as new EV manufacturers enter the race. A combination of price cutting, increased labour costs, Hertz dropping EVs from its rental range, and lets not forget the erratic behaviour from Elon himself, has cost Tesla to lose nearly USD100 billion in market valuation in the beginning of the year.

Elon lead the way, but is falling to the wayside as better made cars come along.

[El Presidente]

8 hours ago, VeguerosMAN said:

Tesla will dominate. It ain't so easy what Musk is doing. Other companies laughed at him and who's laughing now? 

BYD dominate globally albeit it has been a recent event. 

 

[El Presidente]

On 2/28/2024 at 9:32 AM, Fuzz said:

After 10 long years, billions of dollars and not much to show for it, Apple finally kills off Project Titan, their EV that was supposed to take the EV market by storm. Constant revolving door leadership, no concrete plan what they actually wanted to build and deliver, no manufacturer locked in, and difficulties in fully autonomous driving has lead to constant delays in the project delivery.

No surprise that staff who survive the Project Titan layoffs are being moved over to generative AI development..

Glass half full scenario.

• Value of Apple: 2.8 Trillion USD
• Quarterly revenue: 119 Billion USD. (final qtr 2023). 
• They have learn't everything they can learn in terms of automated EV's. They will use the tech elsewhere. 

.....and I am no Apple fanboy. 

[VeguerosMAN]

6 hours ago, El Presidente said:

BYD dominate globally albeit it has been a recent event. 

Byd produces both ev and hybrid. I don't think Byd has a greater market share outside of China.

6 hours ago, Fuzz said:

Tesla have been steadily losing market share as new EV manufacturers enter the race. A combination of price cutting, increased labour costs, Hertz dropping EVs from its rental range, and lets not forget the erratic behaviour from Elon himself, has cost Tesla to lose nearly USD100 billion in market valuation in the beginning of the year.

Elon lead the way, but is falling to the wayside as better made cars come along.

New ev manufactures are in deep trouble. Do you think vw ford gm lucid etc are making better evs than tesla? Tesla has been breaking records in sales each year. Also Tesla goal has been always to cut costs and reduce prices of their cars. Once 25g evs come to the market it's finished for legacy autos. 

Lucid is losing 350k per every car they sell. Ford and Gm are singing different tunes as they simply car make EVs. If gas is still the future than Tesla might be done. But if evs are the future Tesla will dominate. Do not sleep on their AI and energy side of the business. I may be a bit biased since I am retired early with Tesla stocks and I truly believe this company is just getting started 

[helix]

Still way too expensive.

[BrightonCorgi]

6 hours ago, El Presidente said:

BYD dominate globally albeit it has been a recent event. 

A friend got back from Israel a few weeks ago and commenting about how many BYDs are on the road. They look great too. Saw a ton in Spain. They have a unique ownership experience. 

[El Presidente]

5 hours ago, VeguerosMAN said:

Byd produces both ev and hybrid. I don't think Byd has a greater market share outside of China

I hate to tell you that you are wrong. Europe and Asia Pacific.

[BrightonCorgi]

5 hours ago, VeguerosMAN said:

Lucid is losing 350k per every car they sell. Ford and Gm are singing different tunes as they simply cahr make EVs. If gas is still the future than Tesla might be done. But if evs are the future Tesla will dominate. Do not sleep on their AI and energy side of the business. I may be a bit biased since I am retired early with Tesla stocks and I truly believe this company is just getting started 

Tesla's future is not really EVs per se; it's autonomous driving. Autonomous driving is inevitable and will be the biggest deal since driving itself. Going to make the EV business be peanuts if you can dominate autonomous driving which they hope to do. Long time in the making with a huge investment.

[VeguerosMAN]

3 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Tesla's future is not really EV's per say; it's autonomous driving. Autonomous driving is inevitable and will be the biggest deal since driving itself. Going to make the EV business be peanuts if you can dominate autonomous driving which they hope to do. Long time in the making with a huge investment.

True. Tesla will come up with cheap 25k model 2 in the near future and will dominate the South American market. Their goal is to print 20 mil cars by 2030 with autonomous driving. Eventually I believe other manufactures will have to buy Tesla FSD in order to stay survive. Ultimately the biggest product coming out of Tesla will be the Optimus bots which will disrupt labor industry. 

[Fuzz]

Besides the Cybertruck (which has already started to show some build quality issues, eg rust), Tesla has not released a new passenger car since the Model Y in 2020. The Cybertruck may also only see popularity in the US market alone, as interest has been lukewarm, at best, globally.

BYD has expanded their manufacturing plants, with plans on new plants in Mexico, Indonesia, Thailand and Brazil. They currently have no plans to expand into the US market (despite manufacturing EV buses in California), due to trade tariffs. Though, a plant in Mexico may avoid those trade tariffs. Hell, Tesla Model Y uses BYD Blade batteries at the Berlin plant. As more manufacturers release their EVs, Tesla's market share will erode.

Regarding autonomous driving, Mercedes beat Tesla to achieving SAE level 3 certification. All other vehicles with autonomous driving are either certified at level 1 or 2, whereas the Mercedes EQS and S Class are certified level 3.

As for the Optimus bots, have you seen how slow those things move? If a human worker moved that slow, they'd be fired for laziness. Give me a 10yr old Chinese kid an appropriately aged worker with nimble fingers, and you will put those things to shame. Plus, not only would they be cheaper, they are more renewable/recyclable than it too!

 

[VeguerosMAN]

14 hours ago, Fuzz said:

Besides the Cybertruck (which has already started to show some build quality issues, eg rust), Tesla has not released a new passenger car since the Model Y in 2020. The Cybertruck may also only see popularity in the US market alone, as interest has been lukewarm, at best, globally.

BYD has expanded their manufacturing plants, with plans on new plants in Mexico, Indonesia, Thailand and Brazil. They currently have no plans to expand into the US market (despite manufacturing EV buses in California), due to trade tariffs. Though, a plant in Mexico may avoid those trade tariffs. Hell, Tesla Model Y uses BYD Blade batteries at the Berlin plant. As more manufacturers release their EVs, Tesla's market share will erode.

Regarding autonomous driving, Mercedes beat Tesla to achieving SAE level 3 certification. All other vehicles with autonomous driving are either certified at level 1 or 2, whereas the Mercedes EQS and S Class are certified level 3.

As for the Optimus bots, have you seen how slow those things move? If a human worker moved that slow, they'd be fired for laziness. Give me a 10yr old Chinese kid an appropriately aged worker with nimble fingers, and you will put those things to shame. Plus, not only would they be cheaper, they are more renewable/recyclable than it too!

 

Sounds like you are a Tesla bear, which is totally fine.  As a Tesla bull here is my take.  Let's be clear. The so called level 3 auto by Mercedes is already debunked. Even Ford called Mercedes out.  My father has the auto pilot on his New Mercedes S class and it only works on highways and needs another car in front of you, just like that of crusie control.  You have pointed out all the negative headlines thrown against Tesla by MSM.  What other car companies do you think will take away Tesla market share?  BYD has been a good compeition, and I love what they are doing.  Could you say Ford, VW, Toyota, Honda, GM, Lucid, Rivian, etc will take away Tesla market share by a signification margin?  If I am correct, Tesla Y was the most selling car in the world in 2023 ( including gas cars, not just in EV).  Every single model that Tesla produced has been a great success and it won't be any different with Cybertruck and the new model 2 coming out in the near future.  Do not sleep on Tesla's new giga Factory in Mexico.  That will change the whole game to another level as South America will transition into Evs.  As fas as the optimus is concerned it's the only bot that has a brain and can solve real world problems ( just like Tesla's FSD) without being pre programmed. 

Let's see what Mercedes Autonomus level 3 is made of....  Does AUS get Tesla FSDs?  I think it's only in the USA for now. 

[Fuzz]

Not a Tesla bear, as I do have their Powerwall 2 batteries. After looking at every other option, I concluded that they were overall the best option. I was actually wanting to get the new Enphase IQ battery, but found it too big and over priced for the storage capacity when it was finally released here. The Tesla topped out in storage (though no modular upgradability), price per kw (due to Tesla rebate offer), and it could be hung on a wall. However, major downsides were no black start capability, uses NMC batteries, and the max output is lower than some competitors. That last one doesn't really matter for me, as I have two Powerwalls and 3 phase power, so I can have 10kw continuous draw and peak at 14kw. May sound like a lot of power, but when you have a 20kw AC and an induction cooktop running, that really draws down hard. Disappointed with the Powerwall 3 as it is purely for new PV systems, ie cannot be used with an existing solar systems that have inverters (both string and microinverters).

Regarding Mercedes Drive Pilot, that is certified by SAE, and does meet the requirements for that level certification. Under certain conditions, it is Level 3, but will revert to Level 2 outside of those conditions. Yes, there are insufficiencies with Drive Pilot, and you're probably better off using the Distronic system instead. We're not going to see certification and approval for level 4-5 private passenger vehicles for a long time. Tesla's Autopilot also has it's share of problems. Honestly, I don't trust any autonomous drive vehicle at this time.

Agree that Tesla's Model Y finally dethroned the granddaddy of global sales, the Toyota Corolla. That is an impressive feat, as the Corolla has held the title for best selling car for most of the last 20 years. Who will take away Tesla's market share? Not including BYD, unlike all the major car manufacturers, Tesla only does BEV. When we see the majors finally transition to purely BEV, then we will see a shift. Until then, their market share will slowly be eroded. BYD has already made significant inroads, beating Tesla in Q4 2023 sales. It will be interesting to see if Tesla can hold on to their crown in 2024.

It will be interesting to see who can take South America, as BYD is revamping an old Ford factory in Brazil to make their cars.

Tesla vs BYD for global domination! Place your bets!!

[VeguerosMAN]

26 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

Not a Tesla bear, as I do have their Powerwall 2 batteries. After looking at every other option, I concluded that they were overall the best option. I was actually wanting to get the new Enphase IQ battery, but found it too big and over priced for the storage capacity when it was finally released here. The Tesla topped out in storage (though no modular upgradability), price per kw (due to Tesla rebate offer), and it could be hung on a wall. However, major downsides were no black start capability, uses NMC batteries, and the max output is lower than some competitors. That last one doesn't really matter for me, as I have two Powerwalls and 3 phase power, so I can have 10kw continuous draw and peak at 14kw. May sound like a lot of power, but when you have a 20kw AC and an induction cooktop running, that really draws down hard. Disappointed with the Powerwall 3 as it is purely for new PV systems, ie cannot be used with an existing solar systems that have inverters (both string and microinverters).

Regarding Mercedes Drive Pilot, that is certified by SAE, and does meet the requirements for that level certification. Under certain conditions, it is Level 3, but will revert to Level 2 outside of those conditions. Yes, there are insufficiencies with Drive Pilot, and you're probably better off using the Distronic system instead. We're not going to see certification and approval for level 4-5 private passenger vehicles for a long time. Tesla's Autopilot also has it's share of problems. Honestly, I don't trust any autonomous drive vehicle at this time.

Agree that Tesla's Model Y finally dethroned the granddaddy of global sales, the Toyota Corolla. That is an impressive feat, as the Corolla has held the title for best selling car for most of the last 20 years. Who will take away Tesla's market share? Not including BYD, unlike all the major car manufacturers, Tesla only does BEV. When we see the majors finally transition to purely BEV, then we will see a shift. Until then, their market share will slowly be eroded. BYD has already made significant inroads, beating Tesla in Q4 2023 sales. It will be interesting to see if Tesla can hold on to their crown in 2024.

It will be interesting to see who can take South America, as BYD is revamping an old Ford factory in Brazil to make their cars.

Tesla vs BYD for global domination! Place your bets!!

Tesla has two versions. Auto pilot and FSD. I believe FSD is only available in the US and it's fully autonomous with the new version 12. 

[Fuzz]

FSD is for sale in Aus but not available for use. It is only available in the US, and is not SAE certified. I really can't believe Tesla put a beta test in the hands of so many people on the road. There is just too much risk of accidents. FSD is a misnomer, no matter what Elon says. It is level 2, as the driver still needs to supervise the vehicle.

[Fuzz]

Tesla actually has 3 driving aids, Autopilot, Enhanced Autopilot, and FSD. The basic Autopilot is just lane keeping and adaptive cruise control for highway use. Enhanced Autopilot adds navigation from on and off ramps on the highway, automatic signalling and lane changes, auto-park and parking lot summoning feature. FSD does all that plus able to be used in city streets, reading street signs and traffic lights, and being able to traverse roundabouts and intersections. Being a beta, there are a number of instances where FSD fails and the driver needs to intervene.... if they are not sleeping at the wheel.

 

[VeguerosMAN]

15 hours ago, Fuzz said:

FSD is for sale in Aus but not available for use. It is only available in the US, and is not SAE certified. I really can't believe Tesla put a beta test in the hands of so many people on the road. There is just too much risk of accidents. FSD is a misnomer, no matter what Elon says. It is level 2, as the driver still needs to supervise the vehicle.

It is far more advanced than other so called FSDs ( I would say almost perfect). Anyway, do you really think Mercedes Benz has level 3 autonomous and is just not released to the public yet? Apple simply just didn't have enough data to sustain their FSD operation. But then again Tesla uses only their cameras and doesn't rely on data and satellites for their cars to drive autonomously which in my opinion is the only and true AI. China will probably (I am betting) be the first one to buy Tesla FSD.