How should the cigar community handle bad actors.

[Cigar Surgeon]

2 hours ago, MickVanWinkle said:

If only there was a penal colony established on some vast island continent for such criminals…

Is that still a requirement to immigrate?
 

[Ken Gargett]

On 11/10/2023 at 9:09 AM, El Presidente said:

 

This is an open question as I can't see an obvious solution. 

 

There is a very small % of people in the cigar community who are "bad actors". Let's define these individuals who have been found to have  intentionally sold  fake cigars for financial gain and when approached, made no compensation.  There is also a vary small % of people in the cigar community who commit fraud against retailers....but let's leave that one for a different day and focus on the former. 

Where I know fraud has intentionally been perpetrated (proved), then is there a duty of care to advise the broader community? 

Legally there is no issue on this matter: 

"The defence of truth is commonly referred to as justification or the defence of justification. The defendant bears the onus of establishing on the balance of probabilities that the defamatory imputations arising from the publication complained of are either true, or substantially true."

 

 

if i may pick up on a slightly different aspect of your post, the legal advice you provide. as an ex-lawyer, i know that lawyers love nothing more than non-lawyers making such statements and proceeding to rely on them. lawyers make so much money from the general public doing this (remind me to give you an example next time we catch up - one of our wealthier businessmen was truly shocked that his view of how the law should be was not sufficient - he thought he could avoid legal fees doing it his way. it cost him ten times what it would have had he come to us in the first place). 

your quote, wondering where it is from? remember that every jurisdiction has different laws on this - some might be very minor variations but they can matter - and then courts in every jurisdiction will take those laws down different paths. and these laws change, often regularly (and even more often, inexplicably). in Qld, truth can now be a defence but for many years, truth alone was not sufficient. it had to be truth and the public benefit. i could say something about you that was true, no matter how bad, and you could sue me unless i could also show it was for the public benefit. a much more onerous test. 

i would suggest to all members, please do not assume there is no issue on this matter. there most definitely is. and a site like ours, with such an international spread, there is no way that there are not variations. 

[GoodStix]

On 11/10/2023 at 7:15 PM, MickVanWinkle said:

And definitely not confusing my pecker with a Lusi anytime soon.

Eh… expose them.

Please tell me you mean the fraudster 😉

[gormag38]

In regards to the original question asked; I think the duty is on the buyer to have done whatever 'vetting' they are able to do when buying from a private seller. With that being said, if someone has sold fake goods and knowingly done so (within reasonable doubt) then I think the buyer has every right to 'oust' that seller. It could be in a dedicated 'thread' or on their personal profile directly, thus giving more information to potential future buyers. 

While I get the idea of refraining from 'witch hunts' I think that it's important that these bad actors don't get to move on to scam another botl. The community should look out/help one another whenever they can. Just my two cents. 

[BrightonCorgi]

One should only "out" a fraudster on a forum if the transaction was done on that forum IMO.  That way there is a paper trail both sides can stand by to prove their case.  It's a big a deal to call someone a crook and they should be afforded all opportunities to clear their name.  I don't think it's fair to call someone out on a forum when you bought something on Facebook for instance.

Certainly it's easy to PM friends on any forum and tell them in private what happened.   No one can say you were outing a fraudster in public.

If a retailer is selling counterfeit cigars that is another story.

[El Presidente]

6 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

One should only "out" a fraudster on a forum if the transaction was done on that forum IMO.  That way there is a paper trail both sides can stand by to prove their case.  It's a big a deal to call someone a crook and they should be afforded all opportunities to clear their name.  I don't think it's fair to call someone out on a forum when you bought something on Facebook for instance.

Certainly it's easy to PM friends on any forum and tell them in private what happened.   No one can say you were outing a fraudster in public.

If a retailer is selling counterfeit cigars that is another story.

I agree with the first part of your statement. 

However, you have privateers making a nice living out of selling fakes. They approach victims via PM on sale/auction/trade platforms. 

They get caught out on a box. On this occassion I was asked to independently (physically) verify  the first box. Good fake. Then a second from the same seller: Good fake. Then you find out that three further boxes sold privately from the same seller .....after the first two fake boxes....are also fake (serial numbers are out etc etc).  Multiple marques and vitolas.  In all cases, once the light shines on the cockroaches, communication stops with the victim. They scurry into the darkness and wait before the light moves on and they emerge again. 

There are two people that come to mind right now. One in Chicago and one in the UK. Both serial cockroaches. It peeves me no end. 

[B44]

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

I agree with the first part of your statement. 

However, you have privateers making a nice living out of selling fakes. They approach victims via PM on sale/auction/trade platforms. 

They get caught out on a box. On this occassion I was asked to independently (physically) verify  the first box. Good fake. Then a second from the same seller: Good fake. Then you find out that three further boxes sold privately from the same seller .....after the first two fake boxes....are also fake (serial numbers are out etc etc).  Multiple marques and vitolas.  In all cases, once the light shines on the cockroaches, communication stops with the victim. They scurry into the darkness and wait before the light moves on and they emerge again. 

There are two people that come to mind right now. One in Chicago and one in the UK. Both serial cockroaches. It peeves me no end. 

Ken says to out them - we’ve waited too long already 

[BrightonCorgi]

I could imagine an anonymous thread where someone can post and ask on a user here or known on other sites.  The responses are PM'd to that user where the thread starter remains anonymous the whole time.  All the responses are solely by PM if someone cares to respond.