Counterfeiting Corner: Bourbon

[Cigar-Therapy]

As I’ve been getting into Bourbon more - I was at my local ABC buying some Weller Antique 107- when the idea struck me.  I wonder how much counterfeiting of bourbon is going on- like anything that fetches a premium - it’s bound to happen. Has anyone here experienced it? 

I trust my Liqour guy - and the fact that it takes a couple months from me requesting a highly desired - allotted bourbon before he can get it in- makes me believe I haven’t bought a fake.  
I wouldn’t know how to spot a fake even if I came across one - any tips or tricks?

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/06/dining/drinks/fake-bourbon.html

[jakebarnes]

I wouldn't be surprised. And given how little bourbon most "collectors" actually drink, they probably will never know. 

[Reachcast68]

There's been plenty of this going on in the wine world for a very long time.  One of the more notorious recent examples was Rudy Kurniawan:  https://www.theguardian.com/global/2016/sep/11/the-great-wine-fraud-a-vintage-swindle

I knew a number of very knowledgeable wine folks who were completely fooled by Rudy.  I'd be shocked if fakes aren't fairly common in the bourbon market - particularly auctions and grey market dealers.

[Jackdani7401]

It’s been going on for quite some time. 
 

https://www.gobourbon.com/new-netflix-documentary-heist-covers-famous-pappygate-theft/

 

More often then not it’s someone refilling a legitimate bottle and selling it on a secondary market. With the rise in bourbon prices over the last 6+ years it’s becoming more frequent. Just like CC’s having trust in your vendor is paramount. Most liquor stores have to buy their supplies from the state, which purchases it from the distillery. Some states are a little more relaxed on where stores get their products, others are more strict. 
 

If you’re buying from an ABC store, you’re getting legitimate product as the ABC store can only purchase from the state. 

[Greenhorn2]

Buffalo Trace distillery made a post somewhere that if you buy their products somewhere other than a state controlled outlet, then you're buying counterfeit bourbon because they do not release their products to secondary markets. They have seen a major increase in counterfeiting their products. 

[Nevrknow]

All I get is from legit sources. Kind of like cigars from some place south of the equator.😁

[riderpride]

There is a solid market for empty bottles  - especially for BT products.  A good seller will drill a hole in the bottom so it can't be refilled. A significant premium is paid for a bottle that isn't drilled. I'm pretty sure you know why lol

Glad my GT Staggs and Pappy 20yr were straight from our provincial distributor. 

 

Cheers!

[BrightonCorgi]

Faking bourbon is like taking candy from a baby.  Even liquor stores are selling fake bourbon.  My friend bought 4 bottles of fake Pappy at liquor store on the Cape.  First sip was like rot gut.  The store owner reluctantly took the bottles back and put them on shelf for the next sucker. 

Faking bourbon is much easier than faking wine.  I'd be skeptical of any fancy bourbon buy at this point.  Great way to "recycle" bottles.  Caps and foil are on Alibaba. 

[Puros Y Vino]

41 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Faking bourbon is like taking candy from a baby.  Even liquor stores are selling fake bourbon.  My friend bought 4 bottles of fake Pappy at liquor store on the Cape.  First sip was like rot gut.  The store owner reluctantly took the bottles back and put them on shelf for the next sucker. 

Faking bourbon is much easier than faking wine.  I'd be skeptical of any fancy bourbon buy at this point.  Great way to "recycle" bottles.  Caps and foil are on Alibaba. 

Foil and caps on Alibabi?  How about entire bottles?! 😬

[Sir Diggamus]

As I’ve been getting into Bourbon more - I was at my local ABC buying some Weller Antique 107- when the idea struck me.  I wonder how much counterfeiting of bourbon is going on- like anything that fetches a premium - it’s bound to happen. Has anyone here experienced it? 

I trust my Liqour guy - and the fact that it takes a couple months from me requesting a highly desired - allotted bourbon before he can get it in- makes me believe I haven’t bought a fake.  
I wouldn’t know how to spot a fake even if I came across one - any tips or tricks?
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/06/dining/drinks/fake-bourbon.html

I once stopped on my way back to SC from GA at a liquor store to see if they had anything I liked. They had a bottle of Thomas Handy behind the counter for $800 and the liquor in the bottle looked very light, almost pink. I was convinced it was either watered down, or had been replaced.

I wouldn’t doubt for bottles that get up there and higher that people could be passing off bottles that have been replaced with other whiskey.


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[Kenton1971]

On 8/22/2023 at 8:28 PM, Jackdani7401 said:

It’s been going on for quite some time. 
 

https://www.gobourbon.com/new-netflix-documentary-heist-covers-famous-pappygate-theft/

 

More often then not it’s someone refilling a legitimate bottle and selling it on a secondary market. With the rise in bourbon prices over the last 6+ years it’s becoming more frequent. Just like CC’s having trust in your vendor is paramount. Most liquor stores have to buy their supplies from the state, which purchases it from the distillery. Some states are a little more relaxed on where stores get their products, others are more strict. 
 

If you’re buying from an ABC store, you’re getting legitimate product as the ABC store can only purchase from the state. 

An irony from that semi-documentary was that they were using Wild Turkey bourbon in at least some of the Van Winkle bottles.  Aged WT, import WT (101 12 yr) & certain Russell's barrel picks have now become some of the most sought after whiskey in the last three years as folks have realized the WT family of bourbons is freaking delicious.  

The increasing Van Winkle craze has been more than a bit humorous over the last several years as the actual whiskey *that created the craze (100% Stitzel Weller distillate) has been gone since 2014.  While BT does make good whiskey in their own right (opinions on their marketing & release/allocation of it is a different discussion I suppose) it does not compare to what was coming out of SW.  

 

[Kenton1971]

On 8/22/2023 at 4:15 PM, Cigar-Therapy said:

I wouldn’t know how to spot a fake even if I came across one - any tips or tricks?

RE: tips or tricks. 

#1. Avoid FB groups unless you want to pay 2-4x cost for something that may or may not be what you think it is. I literally heard today that there was a bottle of Maker's cellar aged on a national group being auctioned off with a current bid of $430.  Either it's fake (Maker's said they weren't releasing anything until 09/15 and were releasing 30k bottles total in 2023) or its real but with a price tag that has jumped into the deep end of the tater pool. Either way- and I am a Maker's fan- in my opinion it's a pass for that price. 

#2.  Higher price does not = higher quality.   I don't know you so take this comment in the spirit (pardon the expression) its intended.  Unless you want to one of the many big headed tater collectors that just want to show off rare or highly sought after bottles, then don't hunt for them.  There's too many other real values out there that will provide incredible relaxation and enjoyment.  No whiskey will let you "hear the angels sing" while sipping it (yes, even Angel's Envy- bad joke, sorry)

#3. Develop your palate.  Get a notebook and literally write down any smell or flavor note as you taste it. Don't spend more than $50/ bottle (actually you could do this at no more than $35/bottle) as you work through different mash bills (rye or wheat) proof point etc. Best way to sharpen your ability to spot something that's not as advertised is to know what similar products (ones that may come from that same distillery or have a similar mash bill or recipe) taste like. I believe Hamlet may have even mentioned something a little bit similar in one of the YouTube videos when he's asked how to spot fake Cuban cigars.  There's no substitute to nosing/tasting/trying.   Don't drop a lot of coin to do that..just find a bar that may have open bottles (caveat- any bottle with less than 25% in it may be too oxidized and not on profile by that time so look for those that are more full). 

#4.  If your intention IS to actively focus on going after these highly sought after/ rare bottles then expect to get burned.  It will happen no matter what you do. 

Just my .02