Cuban Factory Codes (2003 – Current) PDF

[Tinny]

It sure does, don’t know how I missed it thanks.

[freelunch0402]

Thanks for the PDF file! Deeply appreciate the efforts on consolidating so much information. 

Just a quick question. In which factory should I link with Donatien (which rolls mainly Trinidads from my knowledge) and Pinar del Rio? I think I'm confusing area names and specific factory names but can anyone clarify?  

[Corylax18]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:55 AM, freelunch0402 said:

Thanks for the PDF file! Deeply appreciate the efforts on consolidating so much information. 

Just a quick question. In which factory should I link with Donatien (which rolls mainly Trinidads from my knowledge) and Pinar del Rio? I think I'm confusing area names and specific factory names but can anyone clarify?  

The factory labelled as "Pinar del Rio" is Fransisco Donatien. Its located right in the middle of town. Its not technically a "Mother factory" like the other named factories in Havana, but it does have its own name. 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Fabrica+de+Tabacos+Francisco+Donatien./@22.4156981,-83.7006172,147m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x8f34ac3d0da969ed:0xda3b3e3b5e27e76b!8m2!3d22.4157604!4d-83.6999685!16s%2Fg%2F11c3_8c4g4?entry=ttu

[Biggerfaster40]

So is there any documentation about what marcas were/are made in which factories? I think this is the part I still struggle to connect. There are some obvious ones like Trini/Cohiba from El Laguito, but for other marcas are they just made everywhere? Sorry if this is newb question!

 

Only thing I have been able to find was from cigarweekly and it is from like 2003

[LizardGizmo]

17 hours ago, Biggerfaster40 said:

So is there any documentation about what marcas were/are made in which factories? I think this is the part I still struggle to connect. There are some obvious ones like Trini/Cohiba from El Laguito, but for other marcas are they just made everywhere? Sorry if this is newb question!
 
Only thing I have been able to find was from cigarweekly and it is from like 2003

It’s really a free-for-all as to where things are rolled, though there are a few exceptions (for example, I believe large format Cuaba is only rolled at La Corona). Almost all brands are coming out of at least 3-4 factories, and some come out of more. The best reference is understanding the ‘mother factory’ of each marca, which can be found under each brand on CubanCigarWebsite.com, curated by FOH mod @ATGroom (who likely can offer better info than me). For example, as you mentioned, a lot of smokers chase Cohiba out of El Laguito, or Partagás cigars out of Partagás factory, H. Upmann out of the Upmann factory, etc. There is no science - it’s Cuba, it’s complicated.

[ATGroom]

Basically, every brand is 'owned' by one of the big factories.

That factory is responsible for selecting the tobacco and generally overseeing the brand. They receive orders for X amount of Y vitola from Tabacuba and then they figure out what do do with it, either make it themselves or outsource it to another factory.

Generally, if it's something hard, like as Gizmo said large Cuaba, the mother factory will handle it themselves. There also appear to be some low volume sizes (as in, factory sizes from multiple brands) that are only made at specific factories. Likely this is because that factory has the only set of moulds for the size and it's easier to send them all the orders rather than move the moulds around.

Whether there is any benefit in chasing down production from the big factories is a matter of opinion. 

[Fugu]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:46 PM, Corylax18 said:

The factory labelled as "Pinar del Rio" is Fransisco Donatien. Its located right in the middle of town. Its not technically a "Mother factory" like the other named factories in Havana, but it does have its own name.

I’d think Vegueros and Trini it is (still, as of now, I guess)

[Chas.Alpha]

One of the great mysteries of my life is; how does a cigar such as CORO maintain consistency between factories? At some point, aren’t the odds of El Laguito getting inferior bales as Holguin or anywhere else?

[ATGroom]

19 hours ago, Chas.Alpha said:

One of the great mysteries of my life is; how does a cigar such as CORO maintain consistency between factories? At some point, aren’t the odds of El Laguito getting inferior bales as Holguin or anywhere else?

The official story is that the master blenders at EL choose the tobacco for all Cohiba no matter where it is made, so if a regional factory is making CoRo then they would be doing it with the same grade of tobacco as EL.

Robusto requires a level 8 roller, so the torcedor should have at least that grade wherever they are making CoRo. Maybe an EL level 8 is better than a Holguin level 8. I'd say it probably comes down to individuals, and there are good and bad everywhere.

If there is a difference between CoRo from EL and elsewhere, it would be that EL would have better maintained equipment (draw machines etc), you would probably be more likely to find a level 9 roller slumming it making level 8 cigars at EL than in Holguin (which likely wouldn't have any level 9s at all), and you would probably generally have better people at all stages of the process in EL.

[Salomones]

On 1/10/2024 at 5:52 AM, ATGroom said:

The official story is that the master blenders at EL choose the tobacco for all Cohiba no matter where it is made, so if a regional factory is making CoRo then they would be doing it with the same grade of tobacco as EL.

Robusto requires a level 8 roller, so the torcedor should have at least that grade wherever they are making CoRo. Maybe an EL level 8 is better than a Holguin level 8. I'd say it probably comes down to individuals, and there are good and bad everywhere.

If there is a difference between CoRo from EL and elsewhere, it would be that EL would have better maintained equipment (draw machines etc), you would probably be more likely to find a level 9 roller slumming it making level 8 cigars at EL than in Holguin (which likely wouldn't have any level 9s at all), and you would probably generally have better people at all stages of the process in EL.

Holguin doesn't have levels. 

I've been there several times and the training only consists of a few days of practice. That's all. Last time everyone rolled D4. I asked about the levels and they didn't even know such a thing existed.

Same in Gibara.

Looks like its just an Marketing Gag.

[JohnnyO]

On 7/26/2023 at 5:21 AM, Corylax18 said:

Its very easy. There is Zero correlation between farms and factories. 

Check out this link for more info about how Tabacuba processes the leaves between the farmers drying barns and the rolling tables:

https://www.habanos.com/en/the-world-of-the-habano/

Most of this information comes from the book "The World of the Habano", but if you'll notice the retards forgot to put the English version of "A long way to go" when explaining the curing/aging process of the leaves. John

 

On 1/10/2024 at 5:52 AM, ATGroom said:

The official story is that the master blenders at EL choose the tobacco for all Cohiba no matter where it is made, so if a regional factory is making CoRo then they would be doing it with the same grade of tobacco as EL.

Robusto requires a level 8 roller, so the torcedor should have at least that grade wherever they are making CoRo. Maybe an EL level 8 is better than a Holguin level 8. I'd say it probably comes down to individuals, and there are good and bad everywhere.

If there is a difference between CoRo from EL and elsewhere, it would be that EL would have better maintained equipment (draw machines etc), you would probably be more likely to find a level 9 roller slumming it making level 8 cigars at EL than in Holguin (which likely wouldn't have any level 9s at all), and you would probably generally have better people at all stages of the process in EL.

From what I remember level 9 rollers were done away with 2008-10-ish. They were all sent down to level 8. Also, there is some misconception as to what a Torcedor Maestro is or a "Master Roller". They have to be able to recite from memory all of the formulas for all of the vitolas. If they aren't from the old school it would very hard to find such a person nowadays. Torcedores Maestros have to show the ability to teach as maestro means "teacher" in Spanish. A lot of it is political. So if someone tells you about a Master Roller who achieved that status at 19 years of age, then I am having trouble with that story. John

[NSXCIGAR]

On 1/6/2024 at 8:22 AM, Biggerfaster40 said:

So is there any documentation about what marcas were/are made in which factories?

As @LizardGizmo mentioned there is no hard and fast rule except Lanceros being all rolled at EL. I've even seen BHK from provincials, although that is unusual. 

Every cigar (except Lanceros) can potentially come from any factory, however there appears to be some regions that focus on either particular brands, particular vitolas or particular models. For example all Sir Winston for at least 20 years have come out of Artemisa. Virtually all JL comes out of Artemisa. All Salomones vitola come out of Partagas. All Britanicas vitolas, regardless of marca, seem to come out of Villa Clara, and mostly the Baez factory. 

Another oddball off the top of my head is that VR Unicos seem to mostly come from HU factory while Famosos almost all come from Pinar.

There are quite a few other interesting patterns I've come across as the BR database has expanded. 

@LizardGizmo, are we still at V 1.3 current? 

Came across these Trini Reyes and thinking STE for Pinar in 06 is actually STL? 

 

[ha_banos]

All this recent talk of CCW. It would be great to have some stats box codes, factories etc. I know its effectively decoded by all this great work. I'm just a numbers/metrics bod.

[NSXCIGAR]

16 hours ago, ha_banos said:

All this recent talk of CCW. It would be great to have some stats box codes, factories etc. I know its effectively decoded by all this great work. I'm just a numbers/metrics bod.

Pre-01 codes and factory info is covered in the packaging section in CCW so perhaps @ATGroom might consider incorporating these post-02 codes if he feels comfortable enough with the sourcing. I think the 01-02 codes are credibly established here in one of the old threads.

[ATGroom]

14 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Pre-01 codes and factory info is covered in the packaging section in CCW so perhaps @ATGroom might consider incorporating these post-02 codes if he feels comfortable enough with the sourcing. I think the 01-02 codes are credibly established here in one of the old threads.

I'm considering it.

I guess the argument against it is as far as I know this is still considered to be state secrets within Cuba and I don't want to rub anybody the wrong way.

If anything I think I'd do a checker tool where you put in your box code and it spits back the factory.

 

[GP012]

On 1/16/2024 at 9:46 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

@LizardGizmo, are we still at V 1.3 current? 

Came across these Trini Reyes and thinking STE for Pinar in 06 is actually STL? 

A box code list from Ravi in 2009 would support this - there were several Trinidads with the STL codes - Coloniales STL ENE 07, Fundadores STL MAY 07, STL ABR 06, etc.

[Salomones]

18 hours ago, GP012 said:

A box code list from Ravi in 2009 would support this - there were several Trinidads with the STL codes - Coloniales STL ENE 07, Fundadores STL MAY 07, STL ABR 06, etc.

STL ist Pinar-Factory in 2006+2007

Maybe, they just mirrored the code. 

[MrFolgers]

On 1/10/2024 at 5:52 AM, ATGroom said:

The official story is that the master blenders at EL choose the tobacco for all Cohiba no matter where it is made, so if a regional factory is making CoRo then they would be doing it with the same grade of tobacco as EL.

Robusto requires a level 8 roller, so the torcedor should have at least that grade wherever they are making CoRo. Maybe an EL level 8 is better than a Holguin level 8. I'd say it probably comes down to individuals, and there are good and bad everywhere.

If there is a difference between CoRo from EL and elsewhere, it would be that EL would have better maintained equipment (draw machines etc), you would probably be more likely to find a level 9 roller slumming it making level 8 cigars at EL than in Holguin (which likely wouldn't have any level 9s at all), and you would probably generally have better people at all stages of the process in EL.

So, to decode this further, every Cohiba no matter where its rolled, utilizes the same tobacco and blend as EL? The difference being the factory dictates the quality of the roller, equipment, QA process, etc.?

[Corylax18]

1 hour ago, MrFolgers said:

So, to decode this further, every Cohiba no matter where its rolled, utilizes the same tobacco and blend as EL? The difference being the factory dictates the quality of the roller, equipment, QA process, etc.?

That's the "Party Line", however there is little evidence pointing to this actually being the case. 

[NSXCIGAR]

5 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

That's the "Party Line", however there is little evidence pointing to this actually being the case. 

Have you noticed a difference between EL and non-EL Cohiba? I really haven't for at least the last 10 years and probably longer but that's just me. Possibly just confirmation bias? 

22 hours ago, Salomones said:

Maybe, they just mirrored the code

I don't know what that code STx is on those RyJ Coronas. Looks like a U but can't find an STU. Could be a V but they seemed to stop using the character V around 06 and there never was an STV either.

 

[Corylax18]

9 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Have you noticed a difference between EL and non-EL Cohiba? I really haven't for at least the last 10 years and probably longer but that's just me. Possibly just confirmation bias? 

I don't smoke nearly enough Cohiba to have a legitimate opinion on this question. My comments come from the knowledge I've gained on the general make up of Cuban production and specifically how EL operates. 

I don't doubt that every factory rolling Cohiba aims for similar blend/flavor profile but I think confirmation bias is also a huge part of it. Countless blind tastings have proven that when the bands disappear, even experienced smokers cant tell a CoRo, from a RASS from a BRC. 

[Salomones]

On 1/20/2024 at 4:12 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

I don't know what that code STx is on those RyJ Coronas. Looks like a U but can't find an STU. Could be a V but they seemed to stop using the character V around 06 and there never was an STV either.

I would say its UTS and they just put the Letters in wrong order into the Stamp.

[Fugu]

On 1/20/2024 at 6:12 AM, NSXCIGAR said:

On 1/20/2024 at 1:02 AM, Corylax18 said:

That's the "Party Line", however there is little evidence pointing to this actually being the case. 

Have you noticed a difference between EL and non-EL Cohiba? I really haven't for at least the last 10 years and probably longer but that's just me. Possibly just confirmation bias? 

Yeah, not sure I am convinced either. E.g. I remember for a period around and following 2014 you never saw Espléndidos coming out of EL. They just weren’t rolled there (folks with Laguito-coded Espies from that time may correct me). They were exclusively, and even thereafter the vast majority almost always made elsewhere, mostly H. Upmann and La Corona AFAIR. Factory seemed to depend on format rather than blend. That means, at least for Espy there hasn’t been a “mother” factory during that time receiving the “true“ leaf. So I am rather inclined to disagree. Technically, even for Tabacuba, it shouldn’t be too difficult to get a “recipe and ingredients” being sent out to different production centres. I don’t see a reason to suspect different behind the official version. What makes a difference, like MrFolgers assumes, is the production standards / management of and rollers’ qualities within said factories. I recall a CA article from the 90s where the at that time manager of H. Upmann was proud to announce that they would roll the best Cohibas (well, he might have been biased 😂, but still... that statement also had been kind of “official”).

My - limited - personal experience seems to go in line with that.

[LizardGizmo]

On 1/19/2024 at 11:03 AM, ATGroom said:

I'm considering it.
I guess the argument against it is as far as I know this is still considered to be state secrets within Cuba and I don't want to rub anybody the wrong way.

Oops
Anonymity was definitely a good decision, in hindsight.

 

On 1/21/2024 at 2:43 AM, Corylax18 said:

I don't smoke nearly enough Cohiba to have a legitimate opinion on this question. My comments come from the knowledge I've gained on the general make up of Cuban production and specifically how EL operates. 
I don't doubt that every factory rolling Cohiba aims for similar blend/flavor profile but I think confirmation bias is also a huge part of it. Countless blind tastings have proven that when the bands disappear, even experienced smokers cant tell a CoRo, from a RASS from a BRC. 

I agree with Cory here. Based on what I learned on the HAV trip I just got home from, I do believe there’s a huge difference in EL cohiba versus elsewhere. It seems that EL has no impact on quality control on Cohiba rolled at other factories. Sad but true. Unfortunately I was asked to not share this piece on the interview we recorded this week.

I also agree with Cory that the smoker’s confirmation bias very much exists. There’s no way, for example, that they’re 100% successfully navigating blind rollers (who have no idea what they’re rolling, aside from factory name/size) rolling Dip 2, Monte 2, Upmann 2 at Corona without mixing up bands and blends in the finishing process after they’ve been sitting in storage for days or weeks at a time.

Obviously unique sizes or things like Cuaba are quite clear, but common sizes like robusto and pyramids are shared between many brands.

My two cents, of course.

[NSXCIGAR]

2 hours ago, LizardGizmo said:

There’s no way, for example, that they’re 100% successfully navigating blind rollers (who have no idea what they’re rolling,

I'd agree that they are unlikely to get it right 100% of the time but the leaf should be the same and labeled properly for the recipe. There isn't any "thinking" involved by anyone at the factories, and in fact many times the roller could deduce what they're rolling in the case of Siglo VI or PE, and probably Siglo III and V as well. But the managers obviously know what's going on as everything is boxed and banded there anyway. 

My point is that outside of mistakes and rolling variations, if the leaf and blend is correct the cigars should be identical. The argument would have to be that they are intentionally blending Cohiba differently outside of EL. 

18 hours ago, Fugu said:

you never saw Espléndidos coming out of EL.

There's no mandate that Esplendidos come exclusively from EL. Only Lanceros, and to my knowledge that's still the only cigar with a dedicated factory. 

As stated above I see no reason there would be a blend difference between factories. There may be one but that to me would be a claim that needed some proof or extensive corroboration. The fact is that it's very unusual to see most Cohibas come from EL in the first place so most people would never even have smoked any Siglo or CoRo from EL.