Your level of political engagement?

[GavLew79]

Literally waning by the day. I used to believe that one party aligned perfectly with my views, then they turned out to be assholes, every other party are also assholes, and joe public will get *$#@ed regardless of who's in Downing Street. 

[El Presidente]

12 hours ago, SCgarman said:

What is your engagement as far as US politics go? Does US politics affect your personal life or anything as far as life in Australia? I hope you don't mind me asking. 

.Largely it is entertainment. Roughly equivalent to Housewives of Atlanta/London/Melbourne or farmer needs a wife. 

[GoodStix]

@El Presidente, seeing the b—tards are trying to force us all into a cashless society, I trust you’ll be accepting my new GoodCoin? 😉

[El Presidente]

18 hours ago, 99call said:

Rob, it's not in comment to suggest I think poor people are thick, and that in a weird way was the mistake that the 'Remain' campaign either made, or was shown to have made by the other side.  That said, I can't tell you how many (it seemed like hundreds) of vox pops there were of people in poor communities, that when questioned "why are you going to vote leave" and the answer was invariably "I don't know... I just want to leave".     

In terms of the communities I'm referencing, I would also count myself in their number.   There was nothing in my eduction or curriculum that covered any form of political content, and as an adult I really wish that it had.   From the ages of 18 though to 25 I had never voted, and didn't really understand how important it really was. 

It's to say I think people who are under the pressure of poverty often are susceptible to being triggered into voting for parties, who will only worsen their life conditions.  I have been in debt and had little in the past,  it does make you desperate, envious, and very susceptible to poor decisions.     I think improved levels of financial and political education can improve peoples personal outcomes greatly, and give them a great sense of poise, and nouse when it comes to ticking a box when it comes to an election. 

 

I do get where you are coming from and I don't necessarilly disagree. 

It is too easy to depict the world as one of  "wolves and sheep".  The "we need to protect little johnny" from big bad Rupert is insulting to Johnny who may just need to engage and educate himself on the myriad of tools media and institutions that they have at their disposal. Invariably, government can't do everything but that is increasingly what they are  being asked to do.  Family and society have a huge role to play in raising little Johnny but I suspect a failure to do so in those facets has led to "poor decisions" more  than evil capitalists. 

 

[PuroDiario]

“I do not believe that the solution to our problem is simply to elect the right people. The important thing is to establish a political climate of opinion which will make it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing. Unless it is politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing, the right people will not do the right thing either, or it they try, they will shortly be out of office.”

Milton Friedman

[BrightonCorgi]

8 hours ago, PuroDiario said:

“I do not believe that the solution to our problem is simply to elect the right people. The important thing is to establish a political climate of opinion which will make it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing. Unless it is politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing, the right people will not do the right thing either, or it they try, they will shortly be out of office.”

Milton Friedman

Unfortunately, quoting Friedman is against the current regime and is considered fundamentally wrong (I do not think so).  "Only government can create inflation."  Government says that is false, so we cannot take anything Friedman says with more than a parody.

[99call]

16 hours ago, El Presidente said:

 

I do get where you are coming from and I don't necessarilly disagree. 

It is too easy to depict the world as one of  "wolves and sheep".  The "we need to protect little johnny" from big bad Rupert is insulting to Johnny who may just need to engage and educate himself on the myriad of tools media and institutions that they have at their disposal. Invariably, government can't do everything but that is increasingly what they are  being asked to do.  Family and society have a huge role to play in raising little Johnny but I suspect a failure to do so in those facets has led to "poor decisions" more  than evil capitalists. 

 

Stereotypes are not helpful I agree, and often find it bizarre that on this forum, regardless of the content of what I write, it's often just pigeon holed as generic lefty attack on capitalism.  I am in favour of many capitalist principles and structures within society, but only with genuine social mobility. and thats the catch.   Many people in the higher echelons of society think there is fair access and free social mobility, but generally this is just because it panders to their ego, and personal sense of achievement. 

I believe in the same principles of hard work and opportunity. What I do not believe in is protectionism, masonic halls, private school alumni networks, closeted classes, nepotism, and the UK class system in general.

I do not mind rich people being Prime Minister per se, but what Eton, Winchester and Harrow churn out is not excellence, its sociopathic narcissists, incapeable of understanding or empathising with normal people.       Let's also be clear, I have empathy with them.  I look at someone like Boris Johnson, being packed off to boarding school, and being witness to his father beating up his mum, I think it's sad, I think the whole private school game is a sad sham. (in the UK anyway).    Parents do not pay the fee's for the quality of education, they are buying into the alumni, the families, the network of strings that can be pulled.  The lads exposed to these institutions are relentlessly mocked, bullied, sometimes sexually assaulted its horrendous, and at the same time indoctrinated to feel as if they are gods gift, and that they are superior to all.          All this and still,  for some insane reason these damaged individuals are seen as a shoe in for the highest office in the land?? 

I'm pro social mobility, I'm pro business, I'm pro the ethics of hard work. I believe in a blend of capitalism with aspects of socialism i.e. nationalised services. Unions, protection of human rights

What I'm against is this vomit inducing system in which these malformed sociopathic Bullingdon Boys running our country.   It's not about wealth, it's not about 'wolves or sheep'.  it's about a corrupt class system where the cream doesn't rise.  If these people were excellent I would have no problem with it.......but they are not.

Someone said something the other day about Cameron and Johnson.   "In there 20s they were trashing Restaurants,  in their 50's they were trashing the Country". That as simple and as complex as it gets. power obsessed entitled party boys that think it's their birth right, to get the keys to the country.  They then crash it into a ditch and walk away chuckling. 

  

 

[El Presidente]

9 hours ago, 99call said:

Stereotypes are not helpful I agree, and often find it bizarre that on this forum, regardless of the content of what I write, it's often just pigeon holed as generic lefty attack on capitalism.  I am in favour of many capitalist principles and structures within society, but only with genuine social mobility. and thats the catch.   Many people in the higher echelons of society think there is fair access and free social mobility, but generally this is just because it panders to their ego, and personal sense of achievement. 

I believe in the same principles of hard work and opportunity. What I do not believe in is protectionism, masonic halls, private school alumni networks, closeted classes, nepotism, and the UK class system in general.

I do not mind rich people being Prime Minister per se, but what Eton, Winchester and Harrow churn out is not excellence, its sociopathic narcissists, incapeable of understanding or empathising with normal people.       Let's also be clear, I have empathy with them.  I look at someone like Boris Johnson, being packed off to boarding school, and being witness to his father beating up his mum, I think it's sad, I think the whole private school game is a sad sham. (in the UK anyway).    Parents do not pay the fee's for the quality of education, they are buying into the alumni, the families, the network of strings that can be pulled.  The lads exposed to these institutions are relentlessly mocked, bullied, sometimes sexually assaulted its horrendous, and at the same time indoctrinated to feel as if they are gods gift, and that they are superior to all.          All this and still,  for some insane reason these damaged individuals are seen as a shoe in for the highest office in the land?? 

I'm pro social mobility, I'm pro business, I'm pro the ethics of hard work. I believe in a blend of capitalism with aspects of socialism i.e. nationalised services. Unions, protection of human rights

What I'm against is this vomit inducing system in which these malformed sociopathic Bullingdon Boys running our country.   It's not about wealth, it's not about 'wolves or sheep'.  it's about a corrupt class system where the cream doesn't rise.  If these people were excellent I would have no problem with it.......but they are not.

Someone said something the other day about Cameron and Johnson.   "In there 20s they were trashing Restaurants,  in their 50's they were trashing the Country". That as simple and as complex as it gets. power obsessed entitled party boys that think it's their birth right, to get the keys to the country.  They then crash it into a ditch and walk away chuckling. 

  

 

 

You know you are my favourite "Lefty"  

I am coming to the conclusion that finding shared experiences on the topic  is difficult simply because we (in Oz) have very little of that corrupt class system/"Bullington Boys" that you describe. Our corrupt class is more the white middle aged professional politician who has never had a job out of the Union movement/Law firm. 

Almost every post on this broad subject ends up with an attack on Johnson and Co. Your feelings are obvious. No problem there. 

[99call]

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

 

You know you are my favourite "Lefty"  

I am coming to the conclusion that finding shared experiences on the topic  is difficult simply because we (in Oz) have very little of that corrupt class system/"Bullington Boys" that you describe. Our corrupt class is more the white middle aged professional politician who has never had a job out of the Union movement/Law firm. 

Almost every post on this broad subject ends up with an attack on Johnson and Co. Your feelings are obvious. No problem there. 

It is a UK specific problem. 100%. I've never got that vibe from AU's or NZ on the occasions I've visited, and I defo imagine you have your own unique problems.  One day a change will come and I will get off my little soap box 

[JohnnyO]

I think we all grew up as naive little kids that believed they were doing the right things for us. Mostly now its their agenda that's important. I remember driving through southern Indiana 10 years ago and seeing construction for Interstate I-69. I mentioned it to a friend of mine who lived in the area and he commented: "Yeah all the senators, sons, daughters and brother-in-laws bought all the property where the exits were planned years ago, when the land was worth nothing". They could keep information from us back in the day, now its impossible. That pretty much sums it up, sorry if I extended the boundaries of the conversation. John

[BoliDan]

7 hours ago, El Presidente said:

 

You know you are my favourite "Lefty"  

 

@Chas.Alpha for me. But @99call a close second

[GVan]

Fabulous post and exceptional commentary - I've enjoyed reading all of it.  My only comments are better said by other smarter people than I :

• Plato -- "If you do not take an interest in the affairs of your government, then you are doomed to live under the rule of fools"
• Edward R. Murrow -- "A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves"
• Edward Gibbon from The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire -- “The end comes when we no longer talk with ourselves. It is the end of genuine thinking and the beginning of the final loneliness.”
• Alexis De Tocqueville -- "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money” 
• For the Chicago folks:  Tip O'Neil's  -- "all politics is local" (and yes, I grew up with all of you under the Daly's political machine)

• And finally, so as not to get too serious; Bob Hope: -- "No one party can fool all of the people all of the time; that's why we have two parties"

[Chibearsv]

1 hour ago, GVan said:

Alexis De Tocqueville -- "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money” 

Bingo!

[Chas.Alpha]

On 4/6/2023 at 10:55 AM, Chibearsv said:

Bingo!

And here I am, waiting for another stimulus check to pay for last month's 24/24 purchases... 🤔

[joeypots]

Another gem:

 Noam Chomsky---"A basic principal of modern state capitalism is that costs and risks are socialized to the extent possible, while profit is privatized.”

 

[BoliDan]

I feel like this thread is entrapment