True or False? Lonsdale

[El Presidente]

The much loved Cuban cigar size "Lonsdale" was named afer Lord Lonsdale. 

 

 

[Popof4]

For no reason other than my ancient fear of anyone getting over on me, NO.

[NSXCIGAR]

Well, the Cervantes vitola existed before the Earl. But as far as I know the Cervantes or that approximate size wasn't commonly referred to as Lonsdale until the RG Lonsdale which was obviously named for him. I do not know whether RG had a Cervantes vitola in their portfolio prior to naming it for the Earl. Catalogs from the 1930s are difficult to come by. 

From UK Cigar Scene Magazine article on Lord Lonsdale, Jan 2016. This author concurs, although I believe he may be mistaken when stating RG "created the Lonsdale cigar size" as I would be shocked to discover the first appearance of a Cervantes vitola was with this cigar although it is possible.

https://viewer.joomag.com/uk-cigar-scene-magazine-january-issue-13/0656962001450776942?page=16

[Ford2112]

Sure

[Paladin865]

I wouldn't doubt it. It makes sense 

[potpest]

We stayed at Askham Hall last year which was the earl of Lonsdale's home. Still owned by the Lowther family but it's mainly a boutique hotel with a pretty decent restaurant.

The back of the wine list had a cigar selection with the story of the Lonsdale listed.

[Chibearsv]

True according to wiki

Hugh Lowther, 5th Earl of Lonsdale
 

Sports[edit]

Lonsdale was a founding member and first president of the National Sporting Club, and donated the original Lonsdale Belts in 1909 for the boxing championship trophy. His name was later given to the Lonsdale clothing brand of boxing garments and the Lonsdale cigar size.^[14]

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, Chibearsv said:

True according to wiki

Rob posing the question at all immediately raised my antenna that there may be more to it. If you Google it yes, it all comes up as we have always heard it. But keep in mind these are virtually all secondary sources on repeat. 

I figured a cigar magazine writer in the UK who had done an extensive piece on the Earl is probably as close to a primary source as one can get 90 years removed from the event. 

Although are we really thinking that the naming of the Lonsdale was just coincidence? The guy's picture was on the box after all...I think @El Presidente may be having some fun at our expense watching us try and confirm the sky is blue.

By the way, what's the story on the band in the OP? 

[Çnote]

6 hours ago, potpest said:

We stayed at Askham Hall last year which was the earl of Lonsdale's home. Still owned by the Lowther family but it's mainly a boutique hotel with a pretty decent restaurant.

The back of the wine list had a cigar selection with the story of the Lonsdale listed.

The sheer elegance of this copy will haunt me. Thank you.

[Chibearsv]

9 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I think @El Presidente may be having some fun at our expense watching us try and confirm the sky is blue.

 

Got it  Mr. Sarcasm strikes again 😁

[anacostiakat]

I don't care.  

[Drguano]

Didn’t this Earl guy also invent the sandwich?

[Puros Y Vino]

6 minutes ago, Drguano said:

Didn’t this Earl guy also invent the sandwich?

The only title that matters is "Sir Loin of Beef". 😁

 

[ATGroom]

Another question I would ask is "was there really a person named Marquez Rafael González?"

[NSXCIGAR]

9 hours ago, Drguano said:

Didn’t this Earl guy also invent the sandwich?

Different Earl but isn't it amazing that no one thought to put some meat between two slices of bread until 1762? I would definitely have come up with that first if I had been alive then. 

[NSXCIGAR]

3 hours ago, ATGroom said:

Another question I would ask is "was there really a person named Marquez Rafael González?"

Indeed there was.

Dating back to before the Cuban Revolution, "La Flor de Márquez", from its original name, was founded in 1928 by a Spanish aristocrat, Márquez Rafaël González, who wanted to conquer the English market.

[ATGroom]

10 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Indeed there was.

Dating back to before the Cuban Revolution, "La Flor de Márquez", from its original name, was founded in 1928 by a Spanish aristocrat, Márquez Rafaël González, who wanted to conquer the English market.

Yes, this is basically the sum total that is repeated in every source I am aware of.

Was he a Marqués? As in, the Spanish equivalent of a marquess.

Well, if so, it is normally a title associated with a place, so it would be more usual for him to refer to himself as Rafael, Marquess of Santa Cruz (or wherever). There aren't that many of them. I have done a bit of research and never been able to find a Gonzalez family who is the Marquess of anything, with Rafael holding the seat in the 1920s.

Also, Cuba had become independent from Spain in 1898. There were Cuban aristocrats with noble titles, but they were generally not used after independance. I don't think it would have been considered all that cool to be throwing around your Spanish aristocracy creds in Havana in the 1928.

And why would a Spanish aristocrat create a brand and then market it exclusively in the UK? With Lord Lonsdale pictured on the boxes, no less.

I speculate that he was a fictional character created by George Samuel and Frank Warwick. They thought the idea of a Spanish aristocrat's private brand was a good marketing strategy in the UK.

Just a pet theory of mine. Happy to be proven wrong.😜

[NSXCIGAR]

 

3 hours ago, ATGroom said:

Just a pet theory of mine.

Oh man, now I'm gonna have to do some digging...

By the way, do you have anything on the band Rob posted in the OP? Was that actually the pre-Rev RG Lonsdales band? 

[ATGroom]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

By the way, do you have anything on the band Rob posted in the OP? Was that actually the pre-Rev RG Lonsdales band? 

Never seen it before. Portrait bands were common enough back in the day, but wouldn't usually expect to find them on a standard release. Certainly wouldn't rule it out though. Earliest catalogue picture of them I have is 1972 where they have the normal band.

 

I came up with the theory about Gonzalez being fictional a couple of years ago after I tried to do some research and find out a bit more about him and came up with nothing. Just by chance I happened to be thumbing through Nick Foulkes' Cigars: a Guide this afternoon.

In reference to the text on RG boxes about the secret blend of tobaccos etc he writes:

Quote

Quite how much of this elegantly scripted nonsense is true is debatable; I seem to remember hearing that it was cooked up by an early-twentieth-century cigar merchant visiting Havana who wanted a new brand and was written out on the spot by someone who had a neat hand.

 Hardly peer reviewed research, but seems plausible to me just based on the holes in the RG story I outlined in my last post.

[BrightonCorgi]

Is there another Lonsdale it could be named after?  Doubtful.

[Fugu]

16 hours ago, ATGroom said:

Yes, this is basically the sum total that is repeated in every source I am aware of.

Was he a Marqués? As in, the Spanish equivalent of a marquess.

Well, if so, it is normally a title associated with a place, so it would be more usual for him to refer to himself as Rafael, Marquess of Santa Cruz (or wherever). There aren't that many of them. I have done a bit of research and never been able to find a Gonzalez family who is the Marquess of anything, with Rafael holding the seat in the 1920s.

Also, Cuba had become independent from Spain in 1898. There were Cuban aristocrats with noble titles, but they were generally not used after independance. I don't think it would have been considered all that cool to be throwing around your Spanish aristocracy creds in Havana in the 1928.

And why would a Spanish aristocrat create a brand and then market it exclusively in the UK? With Lord Lonsdale pictured on the boxes, no less.

I speculate that he was a fictional character created by George Samuel and Frank Warwick. They thought the idea of a Spanish aristocrat's private brand was a good marketing strategy in the UK.

Just a pet theory of mine. Happy to be proven wrong.😜

Never gave much thought to it, but now as you're mentioning it, that appears quite plausible to me. In particular since the brand had originally started out as 'La Flor de Marquez'. This, in my eyes, could also be interpreted as sort of marketing, in the sense of a more general statement like "tobacco worthy of a marquess" / "what a marquess would smoke". But not a reference to any specific real person.
The name González only appears (skipping the Marquez) after Samuel & Warwick sold it off to Rey del Mundo Cigar Company.

What's even more odd is the particular spelling, and I wonder that's never brought up in any publication so far: Márquez, whereas the marquess (the aristocrat) in Spanish would be spelled marqués. So it's not just the spelling it is also a different accentuation. Which poses the question, is it really a title of nobility or simply a family name we are dealing with?

Yet another version about that brand's origins can be found in the Italian cigar book "Sigari Cubani" by Luigi Ferri. There, an account is given on rumours that the brand had been born by two Cuban tabaqueros named González and Martínez, upon merging their businesses. Even if that version may not be holding much water either, it is another hint at some scepticism towards the story of the Spanish marquess.

[Midas]

On 3/11/2023 at 11:17 AM, potpest said:

We stayed at Askham Hall last year which was the earl of Lonsdale's home. Still owned by the Lowther family but it's mainly a boutique hotel with a pretty decent restaurant.

The back of the wine list had a cigar selection with the story of the Lonsdale listed.

Look at those prices 🥲. I’m intrigued to see if there’s an updated copy online


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NSXCIGAR]

On 3/11/2023 at 6:59 PM, ATGroom said:

Was he a Marqués? As in, the Spanish equivalent of a marquess.

I'm not sure a British or French "Marquess/Marquise" is the equivalent of "Marques" or "Marquez" in Spanish or Portuguese. It looks to me like "Marques" and "Marquez" are simply the Spanish/Portuguese forms of the Latin "Marcus", so proper names. It may be that "Marquez Rafael Gonzalez was the guy's actual name with no title in that. 

[ATGroom]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I'm not sure a British or French "Marquess/Marquise" is the equivalent of "Marques" or "Marquez" in Spanish or Portuguese. It looks to me like "Marques" and "Marquez" are simply the Spanish/Portuguese forms of the Latin "Marcus", so proper names. It may be that "Marquez Rafael Gonzalez was the guy's actual name with no title in that. 

If I read you correctly I think you're saying that Spain doesn't have a noble rank of marqués which is the equivalent of marquess in English? If so, you are incorrect in that, they definitely do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess

However, as Fugu and I pointed out, it is correct that Márquez does not equal Marqués.

Note the box text:

Quote

...a secret blend of pure vueleta abajo tobaccos selected by the Marquez Rafael Gonzalez Grandee of Spain.

Clearly I think that is implying that his title is "the Marquez." Grandees of Spain can be anybody, but mostly they are dukes and marquesses. I have also looked and cannot find any record of a Grandee of Spain by that name from that time period.

So I think the stuff about him being an aristocrat, which is pretty much the entirety of what you see written up in any history of the brand, is definitely a fiction, the garbled Márquez / Marqués being the result of the fiction writers not being Spanish speakers.

There may have been a person named Rafael Gonzales Marquez somewhere in the history, or it may have been a hybrid name or whatever. I guess my point is the commonly believed and repeated history of the brand appears to be bunk. 

[NSXCIGAR]

44 minutes ago, ATGroom said:

If I read you correctly I think you're saying that Spain doesn't have a noble rank of marqués

Yes, it does appear that "Marques" is the Spanish equivalent of the rank but not "Marquez" which seems to indicate it's a proper name (specifically the Latin "Marcus") and not a title--at least in Spain. Apparently the brand was "La Flor de Marquez" right from the beginning, and we're talking 1928, not 1828--not that long ago. Doesn't appear like there's any confusion--the brand has been consistently "Marquez" since it's inception. "Marques" is a title in Spain and "Marquez" is a proper name. I think everything points to this simply being the person's name. 

Definitely more likely someone would fudge their aristocratic bona fides in the early 20th century although it's probably impossible to actually confirm who this individual was. Perhaps he parlayed his name of "Marquez" into the aristocratic appearance/story. I also have seen some accounts claiming he enlisted the help of two English entrepreneurs to start the brand, meaning he would have been an aristocrat of fairly limited means...