What is Going on Here?

[bergstrom]

On 3/6/2023 at 11:57 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

But then they end up with a bunch of genuine Cohiba without bands. What do they do with those?

I have a theory for this as well 🕵️‍ - 

Moises does have a newsletter he sends out Usually once a month/maybe once every 2-3 months if stock is bad, where he lists boxes for sale. I’ve never bought from him using this method, (lately I typically only buy from FoH, BR or an LCDH if I am traveling) but considering the cost of siglo vi (especially in Mexico!) maybe the folks who are utilizing his shipping service are asking for the bands to be removed in order to keep the chances of seizure low? 

 

 

 

[MrBirdman]

 

[NSXCIGAR]

18 hours ago, bergstrom said:

I will bring it up this weekend

The key question, to me, is to ask if these boxes came from the distributor. Both a yes and no answer incriminates them. 

[NSXCIGAR]

20 hours ago, Fugu said:

loose bands and a pile of banded single cigars to the right. Sorry folks, but to me that looks like “work in progress”.

Am I wrong or has the assumption to this point been that those boxes are full? Imagine if they are actually empty...

I mean are we potentially dealing with a whole-cloth operation here? 

[Fugu]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Am I wrong or has the assumption to this point been that those boxes are full? Imagine if they are actually empty...

I mean are we potentially dealing with a whole-cloth operation here? 

Nothing clearcut to take from the pic alone. But some observations:

The sealed boxes are surely full of course (who’d seal an empty box...). The others, who knows? The boxes to me look like cleaned up, recycled boxes. When looking close, they show the typical signs of wear and tear - near the lid’s groove (repeated opening and closing), scratches, scuffed edges. Some lids don’t fit their boxes, as if they had been swapped at some point.

[gormag38]

7 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Am I wrong or has the assumption to this point been that those boxes are full? Imagine if they are actually empty...

After looking at it a little closer, my guess would be the cabs without the transit seal are empty (and stacked to the left). The cabs with the transit seal are all stacked to the right (nearest where the bands are). I think this a perfect photo of 'work in progress'. Someone could have been filling the cabs and then placing the transit seal when finished. The other boxes without seals, are empty and probably going to be filled. (upon even another look, it appears to me that the transit seal on the middle box doesn't appear to be stuck on the box completely. Almost like it is coming up from the bottom left hand corner. Something that you think would happen with seals that have been removed and then reapplied ). 

6 hours ago, Fugu said:

The boxes to me look like cleaned up, recycled boxes. When looking close, they show the typical signs of wear and tear - near the lid’s groove (repeated opening and closing), scratches, scuffed edges. Some lids don’t fit their boxes, as if they had been swapped at some point.

I agree that the boxes look like they could be recycled/cleaned up boxes. Which leads to another question; how in the hell are they getting all these empty Sig VI boxes? Possibly just keeping them after their singles sell out in shop?  Then they'd have to find a legit seal that matches the date stamp on the bottom which could be problematic. 

[AlohaStyle]

As mentioned above, this LCDH (and also other location from same owner) was discussed elsewhere recently where someone bought fake Cohiba from, and sent back.  I've also seen plenty of pictures of numerous other region RE's at the Cancun location, that were sketchy at best.  I personally will stay far away from this business. 

[grabow32]

I tried to ask today but Moises wasn't there. Didn't feel appropriate to bring up to his staff. I'm going back tomorrow to pick up some custom rolls so maybe I'll see bergstrom there and will ask as well. 

[KCCubano]

39 minutes ago, grabow32 said:

I tried to ask today but Moises wasn't there. Didn't feel appropriate to bring up to his staff. I'm going back tomorrow to pick up some custom rolls so maybe I'll see bergstrom there and will ask as well. 

I got some CF Dalias with extra ligero last year. Very good sticks. Wish all CCs had similar construction. 

[grabow32]

I was unable to get an answers when I returned and I have left now. Moises was on the phone away from the front so I didn't interrupt him. Hopefully someone else was able to ask. 

[gormag38]

38 minutes ago, grabow32 said:

I was unable to get an answers when I returned and I have left now. Moises was on the phone away from the front so I didn't interrupt him. Hopefully someone else was able to ask. 

Appreciate the info regardless. Sounds like some folks on this forum have raised the issue with either him and/or MX distributor. 
If it is what it looks like, hopefully that puts a halt to it. 

[bergstrom]

Well I’m back, had the work week from hell so I wasn’t able to find time to post about this until now. 

I visited Moises. He was gracious as ever. I scored a 2016 box of choix supreme and a 2017 box of PL Panetelas (both still sealed when brought from the humidor, stickerd to hell with the god awful health warnings, he cut the Cuban tax seal and Mexican transit seals in front of me, used a heat gun to remove the health and safety warnings to show the box date and allowed me to inspect each box thoroughly for mold, he even brought up the habanos verifier for me. I have no doubts these cigars are legitimate. I’ve been to dozens of LCDH all over the world, and I can without a doubt say Moises and staff have the best customer service of any LCDH, by a long shot)

 

I brought up “the photo” which he was extremely bummed out about

He did have an explaination and I’ll do my best here to summarize it here. Again, This all according to Moises. So make your own call here. 

He has customers all over the world who he ships to. Some single boxes, others huge orders. He has a customer in china for whom it’s the latter. 

He shipped a massive cohiba order to this customer - one of which was filled with all of these siglo iv. Unfortunately, the package got heavily damaged, dropped according to Moses and quite a decent number of the cigars were ruined. Chinese customs opened this damaged box to find boxes of cigars entering their country. According to Moises at this point they tax the individual who ordered them, and placed Chinese transit and health warnings on every box before releasing the package to this person 

This guy gets his damaged  very expensive load of sig iv and sends them back to Moises. Now here is where his explaination for the bands comes in. He, his employee victor. and his roller Carlos take apart every box, they remove the Chinese stickers placed over the Mexican ones (hence why the boxes were naked. He showed me pictures of this entire process and the WhatsApp convo with the customer) a LOT of cigars are damaged, and the boxes are now naked, he removes the bands from the damaged  cigars, places them with the naked boxes to return to habanos. 

He salvages what singles he can and uses them for his humidor stock. 

I can’t speak to the ins and outs of how these situations are handled between seller, distributer and habanos, maybe Pres has more info to this process. I just don’t know. I do know he has provided me and others with amazing customer service and care over the years, so here I am relaying his story on his behalf, I do want to believe him.  I also know when I visit these places I have zero interest in purchasing cohibas or RE’s.  I’m typically looking for older regular production boxes, (I have purchased Galanes, PL Panetelas, choix supreme, and short de punch from him,not sticks I’m super concerned about being faked, and all do check out) so all I can do is examine with a critical eye. ultimately make your own call. 

some photos from the trip ^ 

[grabow32]

I think that's a fantastic recap. I am a bit biased I guess as I also love this place. Everyone who works there is always fantastic to me. I picked up some singles there on Friday when I went in. I wanted some of Carlos's Robustos but they were out so he rolled them for me that night and put them aside for me to pick up the next day. I am, like I mentioned before, quite sad that you can't still go there and enjoy a cigar inside as I always enjoyed both the company of Moises, Victor, and Carlos but also the other people who would randomly be hanging out. I plan to keep on heading there whenever I visit every few months. 

[El Presidente]

2 hours ago, bergstrom said:

Chinese customs opened this damaged box to find boxes of cigars entering their country. According to Moises at this point they tax the individual who ordered them, and placed Chinese transit and health warnings on every box before releasing the package to this person 

 

please...stop...your killing me ...

[KnightsAnole]

It seems we have to give up on boxes and labels as methods of proof of authenticity. It kind of seems-  antiquated..

From chatgpt:

Q: How could the wrapper leaf of a cigar be imprinted with a block chain security feature that proves authenticity?

A: Micro-etching: Micro-etching is a process that creates tiny, almost invisible, marks on the surface of an object. This technique can be used to create a unique pattern on the wrapper leaf that can be linked to a blockchain-based authentication system. The process does not affect the appearance of the cigar and provides a highly secure and tamper-evident solution.

In terms of security, micro-etching is one of the most secure methods for imprinting a wrapper leaf of a cigar with a blockchain security feature that proves its authenticity.

Micro-etching involves creating tiny, almost invisible, marks on the surface of the leaf. These marks are unique to each cigar and cannot be replicated. The marks are linked to a blockchain-based authentication system that verifies the authenticity of the cigar. Micro-etching provides a highly secure and tamper-evident solution that is difficult to replicate or counterfeit.

In comparison to other methods such as physical tagging, invisible ink, or DNA tagging, micro-etching provides a higher level of security as it creates a unique pattern on the surface of the leaf that is difficult to replicate. The marks are not visible to the naked eye, which makes them even more difficult to counterfeit.

However, it's important to note that the level of security also depends on the implementation and management of the authentication system. It's crucial to ensure that the system is designed and implemented correctly to maintain the integrity and security of the authentication process.

… I guess the last paragraph is why Cuba isn’t using it. That NFT idea might not be so bad.

[Corylax18]

2 hours ago, bergstrom said:

So make your own call here. 

It looks like you grabbed a couple nice boxes. I appreciate you asking and taking the time to respond here, but you where lied to. The story is another piece of evidence indicating fakes, because it just isn't feasible, for multiple reasons. 

First, the boxes in the photos are VI's(6s) not IV's (4s), so if he showed you a message string related to IVs, that doesn't help much. 

2nd, HSA takes back boxes that they messed up, Rob has discussed this plenty of times. They don't take back boxes somebody else messed up and if they do, they better be full of the original cigars. They aren't taking empty boxes back from LCDHs and saying "keep the cigars."

3rd, why would the health stickers need to be removed before they were sent back? THis LCDH isn't a gray market vendor, so it shouldn't matter where their cigars are moving to. 

4th, if these boxes where so badly damaged, why isn't there a single scratch visible on any of the boxes? 

5th, the boxes weren't all naked, they where in various stages of sticker removal or reapplication (all Cuban applied stickers not Mexico or China health stickers)

I could keep going but those highlights are more than enough to make a decision. The tobacco taxes prevented me from ever buying much in Mexico. But after this, Glass Tops from the Beach or Siglo VI from an LCDH are all the same to me. 

[bates40]

On 3/5/2023 at 5:22 PM, MickVanWinkle said:

Used to go to the LCDH in TJ quite frequently, in the early 2000s and even met Taboada (RIP) there- they were working him like a dog and did even allow him to take a lunch break. There was also a place across the street run by a guy out of So. Cal (also RIP) who had, um, very nice humidor attendants. The LCDH was so full of fakes I stopped going there completely. There were a lot of schills on the former CA forum who would basically batter anyone who spoke of the LCDH TJ. Overall crappy situation. 

[bergstrom]

16 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

First, the boxes in the photos are VI's(6s) not IV's (4s), so if he showed you a message string related to IVs, that doesn't help much. 

 

My bad - typo on my end. And I fully took his story with a grain of salt. like I said. I want to believe him. 

 

54 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

please...stop...your killing me ...

 

fair enough! Like I said, was just relaying the story as best I could. I do trust your expertise on the subject especially in this instance. 

not here to come to anyone’s defense. Simply relaying the message and my personal experiences in the past. It’s a bummer because I would like to think that aside from FOH, any LCDH would be the gold standard for authenticity, but unfortunately I suppose that may not be true. 

[El Presidente]

1 minute ago, bergstrom said:

 

fair enough! Like I said, was just relaying the story as best I could. I do trust your expertise on the subject especially in this instance. 

 

No drama at all and I certainly wasn't taking the piss out you 

It's just that China "customs" doesn't work that way. 

[NSXCIGAR]

8 hours ago, bergstrom said:

take apart every box, they remove the Chinese stickers placed over the Mexican ones (hence why the boxes were naked

Well, I certainly believe the part where he says they're working with boxes from China. 

You'd think a large order going to China would have some padding and protection. Also how would they know the cigars are damaged? Open every cab and pull the wheel out? Because those boxes are pristine. 

Good thing Chinese customs has those tobacco health warning stickers ready to go when they find some cigars. 

I've heard some doosies in my time but this one gets the prize. Not that there was any possibility of the employees coming clean.

[NSXCIGAR]

5 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

the boxes weren't all naked, they where in various stages of sticker removal

That to me is the kill shot. Some boxes have the transit seal only. In every version of events that should be impossible. 

[El Presidente]

 

[NSXCIGAR]

Just imagine how much better they are 9 months later. 

You'd think these big buyers of Cohiba would figure out how likely it is they're buying fakes. If I was paying $3,000 a box I'd want to be damn sure what I was buying was 100% genuine. 

[Don Candido]

I have bought from Moises before and don't believe I was sent fakes. I did not buy Cohiba. That said,  LCDH TJ is off my list.

 

There is one more point to his story that does not ring true. Chinese nationals can't send tobacco out of the country, even if they received it from outside China. I don't know if it is impossible, but it is not likely this "Chinese buyer" could have turned around a tobacco shipment that size and sent it back out of the country.