Are there issues when temp goes below rh on long term storage?

[Rhinoww]

I picked up some new Bluetooth gizmos that give me access to temp and Rh for each of my boxes. The app is a curse as I can check status throughout most of my house. While I have only been watching for a bit, the RH has been holding rock steady across the collection at 64 (thanks Boveda and Heartfelt). This is consistent with the gauge monitors that I see when I’m taking a look. 
What has surprised me a bit was that temp for a few of the boxes is at 64, and a few at 63F. Granted, all measurements are within the calibration range (did I mention these were cheapies from Chiner but that I confirmed they were all consistent before placing in different boxes). 
No, my sticks have not exploded when temp crossed the rh rubicon. No I don’t know how temp will look this summer (although I’m guessing it will be pretty close in this part of my basement.) Yes these sticks have been stored this way for at least three years and been fine. 
I ask this question to get better educated on the topic and to give some thought to dropping the RH to 62. 
I am fortunate to have already gone through my buying spree. At this point I need to keep my sticks in good shape to be enjoyed over the next 10-20 years. 
So asking the question to this group - would you shift to 62 rh given the temp, and if so, why?

 

[Lamboinee]

I would keep things the way they are. 

My general understanding is that humidity will rise as temps fall (lots of great stuff on FOH regarding this topic).  However, I am not aware of any rule or "danger-benchmark" related to when temp drops below the RH as your post implies (especially when temp is only slightly below RH).  Also, if your sensors are like mine (I think most consumer models are pretty similar), then there is probably a +-1 or 2 degree/% variable at least, so the your measurements could be within that threshold and not technically be 100 "dead on balls" accurate.  

Regardless, my reasoning about not changing is based more on what you shared about your current and on-going experience with the cigars, and less about my rudimentary understanding of science.  You said the cigars have been down there for at least 3 years and that the temp in your basement (and presumably your humidor) has been consistent for those 3 years as well.  I imagine you had other hygrometers before the new sensors, so I'm guessing that RH has been consistent for the last 3 years as well.  Most importantly, you said the cigars have been fine for those 3 years.  Seems like you are being a good cigar steward and are providing a nice consistent home life.  If the cigars are thriving, then let them keep thriving. So, I would not change anything.  You can use your new sensors to gather more data over the next few months/seasons and maybe it will warrant reconsideration. But, if things aren't broke, don't fix 'em.

If you didn't have your new sensors would it have occurred to you to consider a change?  I went through similar quandaries when I received my multiple sensorpush doodads a while back and suffered from over analysis of too much data.  I have since calmed down...a bit.  And you are talking about small degrees of difference. I think consistency is much more important,  especially when considering such small changes.

One caveat, I don't know how many cigars/boxes you have or how they are arranged. I also don't know how many you have sampled over the last 3 years.  If you are still concerned, I might suggest making sure you have sampled a cigar from several/all boxes and locations in your storage unit to make sure that all the cigars are, in fact, doing fine.

Curious to see other perspectives.  Best of luck!

 

[Rhinoww]

Excellent suggestion to test some of the sticks from different boxes. A year or so ago I got really organized with a spreadsheet w all sorts of box information as well as which of of the six 40 odd quart weathertight containers or two coolidors where things are stored. I really tried to limit the “active” boxes to three of these containers and use the rest for long term storage. Before I got organized I used to go through all of the containers 3-5 times a year (in addition to the weekly Coolidor trip). Probably time to check in on some of the deeper storage boxes. 

[Lamboinee]

52 minutes ago, Rhinoww said:

re I got organized I used to go through all of the containers 3-5 times a year (in addition to the weekly Coolidor trip).

Sometimes my wife finds me just staring at my cigars.... Multiple times a week..... I call it cigarperving. 😬👀

[Bijan]

I keep my boxes 65 rh, and my temps drop to 35 in the winter and up to 65 in the summer.

Everyone who has smoked a cigar from this setup has had nothing but awe and wonder at how good the condition of the cigars is. And that's at every point in that yearly cycle.

Edit: I have wireless temp/rh sensors in all 4 coolers.

[MrBirdman]

Temp is a much lower area of concern than RH. As long as the temp is high enough to allow for adequate moisture content in the air (which anything above freezing definitely is), you are just fine. My cigars cycle yearly between 62 and 67 degrees, and I don't change anything. 

6 minutes ago, Bijan said:

I keep my boxes 65 rh, and my temps drop to 35 in the winter and up to 65 in the summer.

In theory the cigars should have a lower moisture content at those much lower temps with the same RH - though I guess if you're using Boveda-style packs they may function differently outside room-temp. Do you notice any difference from winter to summer?

[Bijan]

49 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

In theory the cigars should have a lower moisture content at those much lower temps with the same RH - though I guess if you're using Boveda-style packs they may function differently outside room-temp. Do you notice any difference from winter to summer?

I have boveda, the RH fluctuates a tiny bit. Closer to 67% (or 68% at the coldest), but can't be sure that's not just me opening and closing the coolers and the door or the boveda equilibrium changing with temperature.

Actually as pigfish says (I think) the moisture content of cigars (% moisture within the cigars) actually goes up as temperature goes down (the amount of moisture in the air does go down though).

But as ambient is very humid in the summer and very dry in the winter, it doesn't seem to have any noticeable effect when smoking.

 

49 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

Temp is a much lower area of concern than RH. As long as the temp is high enough to allow for adequate moisture content in the air (which anything above freezing definitely is), you are just fine. My cigars cycle yearly between 62 and 67 degrees, and I don't change anything. 

Yes, I mainly have my sensors for RH, and also to make sure temps are above freezing.

[MrBirdman]

42 minutes ago, Bijan said:

I have boveda, the RH fluctuates a tiny bit. Closer to 67% (or 68% at the coldest), but can't be sure that's not just me opening and closing the coolers and the door or the boveda equilibrium changing with temperature.

Actually as pigfish says (I think) the moisture content of cigars (% moisture within the cigars) actually goes up as temperature goes down (the amount of moisture in the air does go down though).

But as ambient is very humid in the summer and very dry in the winter, it doesn't seem to have any noticeable effect when smoking.

That's interesting, though I suspect that's relative since the amount of moisture at 65%/65F is higher than 65%/35F. 

Bottom line is that if they are smoking the same, that's all that really matters. 

 

42 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Closer to 67% (or 68% at the coldest),

My storage uses Boveda as well and, except during the height of the summer, they also sit at around 67%. It's not the hygrometers either since I calibrate them annually. 

[Fugu]

Yeah, just let it slide guys! If you want to speed up ageing and set your valuable collection at risk, large swings in temperature and tobacco moisture is the way to go! 😂

Seriously, if your stock is to be smoked within a mere five years, no problem. Otherwise, stability is king!

 

(mind you, a stable rH across the temperature range does not equate to stable tobacco moisture)

[Bijan]

19 hours ago, Fugu said:

Yeah, just let it slide guys! If you want to speed up ageing and set your valuable collection at risk, large swings in temperature and tobacco moisture is the way to go! 😂

Seriously, if your stock is to be smoked within a mere five years, no problem. Otherwise, stability is king!

 

(mind you, a stable rH across the temperature range does not equate to stable tobacco moisture)

Just to go into it. My temps are stable daily/weekly. They are just not stable seasonally.

That is to say temperature never changes more than 1C per day and rarely more than 1-2C per week. It takes 6 months to go from 18C to 2C and then another 6 months to go back.

Consider that Cuba freezes all cigars, and many consumers will freeze those cigars again, and they may end up frozen a third time. 

I am sure there was a lot some worry about the effects of that freezing when that started, but who worries about it now.

On top of that the effects of rapid/sudden fluctuations/deviations in temperature are not the same as slow and sustained ones.

I think it has been maintained that it is ok to store at a wide range of temperatures. People even store vacuum sealed boxes in freezers long term. The question then becomes what are the effects of cycling the temperature.

In my case there is an annual swing of +-16C, and I'll probably be alive for another 40-50 years if lucky.

I wouldn't be surprised if the effect of the cold period in slowing down aging outweighed the effects of the annual temperature swing. Since my temps are never above 65f, only below it.

[PigFish]

Folks... remember. Cigars are not like free vapor water in space, they are like liquid water in a pool. Cigars attract water (vapor). The bonding of water (molecular water vapor) to the cigar is a matter of two factors. The amount of free water to be bonded and the energy of the water. The energy of the water is variable dependent on the temperature of the water.

Look at water in a pot. As you cool it, it is less likely to evaporate. Water bonds to water. As you increase the energy in it, it eventually boils indicating that the energy in the water is so high it cannot bond with itself. Tobacco is the same. Heat water and it cannot bond to it.

As rH is a calculation of the vapor pressure of water, you can 'push' it to attach to the tobacco based on a growing rH.

I know of no 'line inversion' fear of rH/temp. However I also ascribe to the stability rule. I cannot make proof of aging, aging is a bunch of collector fluff as far as I am concerned anyway... but understanding tobacco as organic matter built in the form of a pipette to facilitate smoking, my arguments are based on known fines to tobacco and its ability to remain a structural pipette.

There are two rules to cigar tobacco as far as I am concerned. Let it get too dry and risk fines of structural failure of the pipette. You can't smoke it if it is broken. Let it get to wet and biologics eat it...! There are a host of variances to that as your range from too wet to too dry. Too wet and it swells, killing the draw and destroying the taste... for example.

The taste aspects of water in tobacco, along with the aging aspects are wholly subjective and based on the anecdotal evidence of the believer. I am not saying I am right and others are wrong for anyone other than me! Tobacco fines are real. All the rest is a part of your belief system and experience.

-The Pig

[Bijan]

5 minutes ago, PigFish said:

There are two rules to cigar tobacco as far as I am concerned. Let it get too dry and risk fines of structural failure of the pipette. You can't smoke it if it is broken. Let it get to wet and biologics eat it...! There are a host of variances to that as your range from too wet to too dry. Too wet and it swells, killing the draw and destroying the taste... for example.

Thanks! This was my main takeaway from your posts I have read: the main danger of poor storage is damaged cigars.

Having smoked close to a thousand cigars from my storage over all 12 months of the year, over multiple years, I can say that they are never too wet or too dry subjectively. Since cigars generally smoke poorly (for me) before they become brittle or soggy, I think I'm safe from that aspect. As for the rest. I'll echo your conclusion:

5 minutes ago, PigFish said:

The taste aspects of water in tobacco, along with the aging aspects are wholly subjective and based on the anecdotal evidence of the believer. I am not saying I am right and others are wrong for anyone other than me! Tobacco fines are real. All the rest is a part of your belief system and experience.

 

[Fugu]

1 hour ago, Bijan said:

Just to go into it. My temps are stable daily/weekly. They are just not stable seasonally.

Yeah, I got that. Just a few points, Bijan. Make of that what you will: You are right, slow gradual changes over the course of a year (long periodicity) are sure less problematic than are short-term fluctuations (but the latter also largely depending on the inertia of one’s storage system, so even daily fluctuations may effectively prove non-problematic to the cigars in the box).

But your amplitude is considerable. A low 1.5 °C is an extreme. But even more extreme when not stable but instead undergoing an anual cycle of roughly a 20-degree amplitude.

Next: Even if you try to keep relative humidity (rH) within your storage atmosphere stable, tobacco moisture will not be. That is because we take ambient rH only as a proxy for (our desired) tobacco moisture, and that even within limits (check out Ray’s tutorial pinned at the top of this subforum). The physical (thermodynamic) equilibrium between water in the ambient atmosphere (humidity) and a certain hygroscopic particulate matter (here: tobacco moisture) will never be constant, but instead be a function of temperature. That is, colder matter/tobacco will contain more water than warmer tobacco at equilibrium at the same ambient rH.

This will inevitably lead to a continual swelling and shrinking of cigars. Even if only over the course of an annual circle, this will/could eventually lead to compromising the structural integrity of the cigars in such a storage. It may take some time to become effective but it will eventually. Let alone affecting sensory properties of tobacco (and leaving aside the potential risks of fungal growth).

And finally, since you are addressing freezing: As I was alluding to above - no issue at all when done on young sticks, when the tobacco is still pliable and resilient. But I wouldn’t do it too much in matured cigars, which have already shed much of their puppy fat.

But anyway, as long as you’re happy with the things as they are, all good! Just wanted to share some of my concerns. Happy smoking!

[Bijan]

15 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Next: Even if you try to keep relative humidity (rH) within your storage atmosphere stable, tobacco moisture will not be. That is because we take ambient rH only as a proxy for (our desired) tobacco moisture, and that even within limits (check out Ray’s tutorial pinned at the top of this subforum). The physical (thermodynamic) equilibrium between water in the ambient atmosphere (humidity) and a certain hygroscopic particulate matter (here: tobacco moisture) will never be constant, but instead be a function of temperature. That is, colder matter/tobacco will contain more water than warmer tobacco at equilibrium at the same ambient rH.

Yes, I just quoted Ray's youtube video in another thread. Where the rule of thumb was a 3:1 ratio between the effects of temperature and RH.

What I can tell you in practice from my own experimental results is that this doesn't hold from 65f down to 35f.

It ends up not being like Ohm's law that holds over many orders of magnitude.

I haven't found much noticeable difference between cigars stored at 35F/67% and 65F/65%.

Whereas the 3:1 rule would suggest 35F/67% cigars should end up like 65f/76% cigars or somewhere around there.

I think it's something like what @MrBirdman said, at that low a temperature there's so much less free moisture in the air it changes the dynamics.

22 minutes ago, Fugu said:

But anyway, as long as you’re happy with the things as they are, all good! Just wanted to share some of my concerns. Happy smoking!

I appreciate the concern. And you may well be right. I'm just over 2.5 years into this experiment, so we'll see how it goes 🤞

[Bijan]

27 minutes ago, Fugu said:

But your amplitude is considerable. A low 1.5 °C is an extreme. But even more extreme when not stable but instead undergoing an anual cycle of roughly a 20-degree amplitude.

This is why I gave the example of freezing 2/3 times. That's at least twice the amplitude (freezers are -18C or colder), and much more sudden.

Edit: that's actually a good experiment... Move cigars to/from freezer, once a week for a year and gauge the results.

[Fugu]

20 hours ago, Bijan said:

Edit: that's actually a good experiment... Move cigars to/from freezer, once a week for a year and gauge the results.

Keep us updated! 😅

[Bijan]

26 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Keep us updated! 😅

I'm going to find a box and then try it. Maybe smoke 1 a month to gauge how it goes.

Friday into freezer, Sunday out of freezer and back into storage.

Smoke one on the first of each month.

At the end of a year I should have something of a upper limit for my storage conditions over 50 years.

[Lt4-396]

@Bijan did you ever perform the weekly freezing study?