Vacuum Sealing Q’s

[MrBirdman]

To those who shared their experiences with the “dark art” of vacuum sealing:

I have been ceiling some boxes in my collection lately and had two questions: first, is there any appreciable difference between getting a full vacuum or just partial; and second, have you had any issues with cigars getting pressed or damaged when getting a strong vacuum on SLB’s/SNB’s?

[BrightonCorgi]

Don't vacuum dress boxes too hard or they'll compress and be ruined.  I leave a touch of air just to avoid potentially crushing a box.  I'll also vacuum seal 3 ten count boxes together. 

I don't see any differences between the a partial and full vacuum on cabs, FWIW.  

I have noticed the vacuum sealed cigars have more aroma when opening that do the same box code cigars stored in a cabinet.

[MrBirdman]

2 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

I'll also vacuum seal 3 ten count boxes together. 

Excellent idea. Thank you for your recommendations!

[Nevrknow]

12 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Don't vacuum dress boxes too hard or they'll compress and be ruined.  I leave a touch of air just to avoid potentially crushing a box.  I'll also vacuum seal 3 ten count boxes together. 

I don't see any differences between the a partial and full vacuum on cabs, FWIW.  

I have noticed the vacuum sealed cigars have more aroma when opening that do the same box code cigars stored in a cabinet.

Plus one on this. I cringe and feel physical pain when I see someone crush cigars from sealing " all the way".

😂

I get the concept. NO air. But realistically that small tad of air in a sealed bag never gets exchanged.

[Monterey]

The biggest mistake I made initially was leaving a little bit of air.  Make it snug without crushing the box.  Seals can break overtime,  It is much easier to know this when the box is snug.  If you leave a little bit of air, you may not notice that the seal has been compromised right away.  You have to take the box out, and really inspect.  Such a pain.  Every few months I just run my finger across all the boxes and can tell instantly if a seal has been compromised. 

Careful of anything with a latch, I noticed over time that is where my leak would occur.  Now I put some padding over any of those latches like on trinidad boxes.

[Monterey]

17 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

Excellent idea. Thank you for your recommendations!

I don't recommend this either unless you are going to smoke all 3 boxes right away.  I seal all my 10 count boxes individually.  But that is because when I get to a 10 count box, I likely won't get to the 2nd 10 count box for quite some time after.  I will say 10 count boxes are tricky though.  It is the easiest box to smash.  Get good on the 25 boxes before you tackle the 10 count boxes.

[benfica_77]

@Monterey any suggestions on the brand of plastic to vaccuum seal with? i.e. do you find some don't break the seal as quickly?

[BrightonCorgi]

51 minutes ago, Monterey said:

I don't recommend this either unless you are going to smoke all 3 boxes right away.  I seal all my 10 count boxes individually.  But that is because when I get to a 10 count box, I likely won't get to the 2nd 10 count box for quite some time after. 

Did you know if you leave enough vacuum bag, you can reseal them as you get to each 10 count box?

[hawkeye5050]

Giving this a shot to free up space in my humidor. 
 

[Monterey]

2 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Did you know if you leave enough vacuum bag, you can reseal them as you get to each 10 count box?

Incorrect.  Failure rate increases with each re-vacuum.  Further, opening the bag will just flush fresh oxygen into the box. If that doesn't make sense, then you shouldn't be in the world of vacuum sealing.    Absolutely silly savings of reusing the bag.  Seal each bag individually. Spending hundreds of dollars on a box, carefully aging with vacuum sealing only to save a buck on bagging up the box? 

"Pound wise, penny foolish"

2 hours ago, benfica_77 said:

@Monterey any suggestions on the brand of plastic to vaccuum seal with? i.e. do you find some don't break the seal as quickly?

Not the bag, but a setting on the vacuum seal process, the moist setting.  I just use the standard foodsaver from Costco.  The bag can get expensive if you have done as much as I.  I'm sure I'm now north of 500 boxes.  400 boxes currently sealed up and I've opened and smoked about 100 boxes now.  I switched over to these

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077BG6Y5X?ref=nb_sb_ss_w_as-reorder-t1_ypp_rep_k1_1_3&amp=&crid=1RTMVKO3HTU89&sprefix=vac&th=1

As they are cheaper then the foodsaver brand.  I have found no variance in failure rates.   I should say I have very little failures, Just a couple a year across all my boxes.  The #1 cause for me is moving boxes around to check other boxes. Jamming a box into my limited space (at 400 boxes, spaces becomes an issue for me!) is my biggest problem.  I cause friction and a bag is compromised.  The other is the pressure against latches.  

I also noticed a significant drop in failures when I clicked on the "moist" button when doing the sealing.  The "moist" option makes a fatter seal.  So there is more plastic melted.  I also started doing a double seal.  After the bag is vacuumed up and done, I just do another quick seal (without running the vacuum action).

1 hour ago, hawkeye5050 said:

Giving this a shot to free up space in my humidor.

If you think about it, let us know how this goes.  There is no reason to think you can't do what you are doing, I'm just too chicken.  My life would be so much easier if I would just store them outside of a humidor.  All my vacuumed boxes are still being maintained in a humidor

[hawkeye5050]

25 minutes ago, Monterey said:

All my vacuumed boxes are still being maintained in a humidor

Is that protection for seal failure only or is there another risk I’m missing? I’ve accounted for temperature control and sealed as you mentioned for easy verification running a finger over the box. I know you are doing long term storage but as of now I have maybe a six month time horizon. This humidor I built is full and need to work on another. If I’m missing something I can put in a “cool-idor” to be safe. 

[BrightonCorgi]

1 hour ago, Monterey said:

Incorrect.  Failure rate increases with each re-vacuum. 

I don't have any failure rates with re-vacuum.  If the seal didn't seal, then I'd use another bag or cut from one from a roll.  The room I store vacuumed cigars is actually on the too humid side.  I would risk additional humidity getting in if the seal broke, which none have.

[Monterey]

52 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

I don't have any failure rates with re-vacuum.  If the seal didn't seal, then I'd use another bag or cut from one from a roll.  The room I store vacuumed cigars is actually on the too humid side.  I would risk additional humidity getting in if the seal broke, which none have.

Congrats.  You just keep unnecessarily introducing oxygen each time you re-seal because you are saving 10 cents on a second bag.

 

1 hour ago, hawkeye5050 said:

Is that protection for seal failure only or is there another risk I’m missing? I’ve accounted for temperature control and sealed as you mentioned for easy verification running a finger over the box. I know you are doing long term storage but as of now I have maybe a six month time horizon. This humidor I built is full and need to work on another. If I’m missing something I can put in a “cool-idor” to be safe. 

 I don't think it is failure rate of the seal.  That is quite rare, I just mentioned it to let people to know that it is worth checking.  Just don't assume your seal is 100% perfect.  It is just my current understanding of moisture content in a vacuum seal.   What I need to do is to seal a box with a hygrometer and just see if it maintains humidity.  I'm sure it does, that is the point of vacuum sealing.  I have the storage space (barely) so I'm just being extra cautious.  I'm 99.99% sure you are just fine.  Especially for 6 months.  For me, if I take them out of the humidor, I would just have loose boxes and a big empty humidor.  So why not just leave them in the humidor.   But if you are maintaining temps outside a humidor, then I really think you are fine.

[avaldes]

You may be overestimating the vacuum that a FoodSaver is producing. It is nowhere near a full vacuum. Also the bags are quite permeable to gas. So while the intention of minimizing oxygen is good, there is still quite a bit left in your system. There are industrial containers and vacuum chambers you can buy if that is truly the goal. But I suspect the "magic" here is purely minimizing the loss of volatile chemicals lost when we leave boxes in an open humidor.

The point is, opening a bag every once in a while to re-seal or take out a 10-box probably isn't the end of the world.

[Monterey]

1 hour ago, avaldes said:

You may be overestimating the vacuum that a FoodSaver is producing. It is nowhere near a full vacuum. Also the bags are quite permeable to gas. So while the intention of minimizing oxygen is good, there is still quite a bit left in your system. There are industrial containers and vacuum chambers you can buy if that is truly the goal. But I suspect the "magic" here is purely minimizing the loss of volatile chemicals lost when we leave boxes in an open humidor.

The point is, opening a bag every once in a while to re-seal or take out a 10-box probably isn't the end of the world.

Isn't the end of the world.  Cigars will be fine.  Just unnecessary, faster and more convenient if you do them separately in the first place.  if you have 3 boxes, you eventually would have to do 3 seals anyhow over time.  And yes, the goal is minimizing.  If you wanted to truly remove, you would have to pump an inert gas into the equation.  Very much overkill.  But I think you are overestimating when you say "quite a bit left in the system".  So far I can tell you that this process works well.  Aging is massively reduced, especially when you keep the sealed boxes at 57F to 60F like I do. 

[Glass Half Full]

 

1 hour ago, Monterey said:

Isn't the end of the world.  Cigars will be fine.  Just unnecessary, faster and more convenient if you do them separately in the first place.  if you have 3 boxes, you eventually would have to do 3 seals anyhow over time.  And yes, the goal is minimizing.  If you wanted to truly remove, you would have to pump an inert gas into the equation.  Very much overkill.  But I think you are overestimating when you say "quite a bit left in the system".  So far I can tell you that this process works well.  Aging is massively reduced, especially when you keep the sealed boxes at 57F to 60F like I do. 

Just to be clear, since "Aging is massively reduced," you need to be doing this process only with the cigars you believe are at their peak, right? 

[Monterey]

7 hours ago, Glass Half Full said:

Just to be clear, since "Aging is massively reduced," you need to be doing this process only with the cigars you believe are at their peak, right? 

I probably could have used better words here.  It is reduced.  Massively was probably a poor choice of wording on my part. There are a lot of moving parts.  Cigars today are apparently tasting great right out of the gate.  So I hear.  Part of my problem is vacuum sealing is that I'm never going to know how current production cigars are smoking.  What I have sealed up is cigars prior to this new aging reality of current cubans.  So my results may be different then someone sealing up 21/22 boxes.  My goal is to push my large collection until I die.  I'm near 50, and hoping to enjoy my collection until I'm 80.  So 30 years.  How a cigar will be with 1 year of age, then vacuum sealed for 2+ decades is beyond me at this point.  I can tell you that cigars sealed up for 7 years have not lost any intensity.  They have aged without getting mellow.  I plan to report back regularly on this subject over time.  And for the record, everything i sealed up was around 1 year after the box date.

For me, I want to be smoking 8 year old Coros from 2020 in the year 2050.

[TheGipper]

Well at least we got to 13 posts before the never-tried-it-but-still-know-it-doesn't-work crowd showed up to this thread.

Ignore the load of irrelevant and uninformed nonsense about "your vacuum isn't perfect" - (irrelevant and not the point of vacuum sealing).  And "the bags are very gas permable" - (they aren't).

The benefit is in the seal, not the vacuum.

The amount of remaining oxygen is absolutely trivial when you're going to leave it sealed for 5+ years.

 

[Monterey]

14 hours ago, TheGipper said:

The amount of remaining oxygen is absolutely trivial when you're going to leave it sealed for 5+ years.

 

Agree to disagree!  For the reason I mentioned above.  To each their own

[BrightonCorgi]

11 hours ago, TheGipper said:

The benefit is in the seal, not the vacuum.

The amount of remaining oxygen is absolutely trivial when you're going to leave it sealed for 5+ years.

Agreed.  The main reason I vacuum seal at all is I ran out of room in the cabinet and I don't want duplicate boxes in there.  The lack of oxygen slowing or changing their aging is just an incidental.

[MrBirdman]

12 hours ago, TheGipper said:

Well at least we got to 13 posts before the never-tried-it-but-still-know-it-doesn't-work crowd showed up to this thread.

Ignore the load of irrelevant and uninformed nonsense about "your vacuum isn't perfect" - (irrelevant and not the point of vacuum sealing).  And "the bags are very gas permable" - (they aren't).

The benefit is in the seal, not the vacuum.

The amount of remaining oxygen is absolutely trivial when you're going to leave it sealed for 5+ years.

 

Thank you for confirming this - the heart of my question was whether there was any difference between vacuum levels. Gonna make sealing stuff up much easier. Thanks.

[TheGipper]

2 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

Thank you for confirming this - the heart of my question was whether there was any difference between vacuum levels. Gonna make sealing stuff up much easier. Thanks.

Yep, just let the sealer pull out all the "easy" or "loose" air.  Hit the button just as the bag starts to get tight.  It will be good enough.

I accidentally did the harder vacuum thing with a box of Bolivar Lonsdales, way back when.  The lid buckled, but I didn't open an re-do the box.  Don't know why. 

Left them that way for I think 8 years.  The top row of sticks got squeezed, especially in the middle.  Both rows had a very square box press look, like Padron Anniversary, but even more extreme.  The top row barely drew, having been squeezed.  But still smokeable.

Did not really notice much difference in taste between that box and another Boli Lonsdale box of same box code I had sealed for 5-6 years.  In my mind, the hindering of the draw on the squeezed cigars outweighed any theoretical positive of the harder vacuum.

Possibly the right way to really test the "hard vacuum" thing is to do with not-full SBN box or a SLB.  But I never bothered to try it.

[TheGipper]

Also one more thing on this topic...

I do prefer to take a box out of vacuum seal about a year before I intend to consume it.

I've found that while that first stick you light up out of a box the same day you opened the seal is usually fantastic immediately...after a few days/weeks, the box will tend to go through a sick period for some months after haven been taken out of vacuum seal.  The sick period maybe lasts 3-6 months, maybe longer.  But I have had good results waiting a year after taking it out.

[MrBirdman]

30 minutes ago, TheGipper said:

thing is to do with not-full SBN box or a SLB

I had the same thought, but the issue is I’m mostly sealing up boxes that I haven’t cracked yet. I will be putting some Esplendidos singles in a SBN and giving them a full seal since there’s plenty of room. I guess I could put a few with a partial seal and compare, but really it’s a moot question because I found myself constantly fretting about “the squeeze” on cigars (even thick wood boxes like my Maltes were bowing noticeably with a full seal). Not worth the worry, especially since I am sure home sealers aren’t creating a total vacuum anyway. 

22 minutes ago, TheGipper said:

I do prefer to take a box out of vacuum seal about a year before I intend to consume it.

Really good to know, thank you. I wonder how much the age when first sealed affects that, if at all. 

Appreciate your insights. 

[BrightonCorgi]

1 hour ago, TheGipper said:

Also one more thing on this topic...

I do prefer to take a box out of vacuum seal about a year before I intend to consume it.

I've found that while that first stick you light up out of a box the same day you opened the seal is usually fantastic immediately...after a few days/weeks, the box will tend to go through a sick period for some months after haven been taken out of vacuum seal.  The sick period maybe lasts 3-6 months, maybe longer.  But I have had good results waiting a year after taking it out.

I was wondering about sick periods and vacuum sealed boxes.  I've never smoked any from the boxes I sealed.  I've given out a handful for 10 count boxes as gifts, but never one for me to try just yet.