The aging voodoo thread. Everything on ageing/vacuum sealing/shrink wrapping et al?

[El Presidente]

There is a section of the cigar community that loves practising the dark arts . Us old timers here will remember how online Cuban cigar sources were once only passed on to newbies who took the time to learn the secret handshake.

The spotlight has been shone on many of the once cigar voodoo areas (plume anyone?). What a little bit of light showed was that this is essentially a simple hobby made unnecessarily  complicated.

One area that has had extensive member/hobbyist experimentation over the past 20 years is the area of aging cigars. 

Can we pool our experiences and opinions? 

I am going to put forward some questions. Answer the ones that apply to you. 

 

• Do you have an ageing regimen? 
• In your experience, what are classic examples of cigars that require ageing and which ones don't?
• In your experience, what are classic examples of cigars that you believe "peak" after a certain period of time? What is the time period roughly?
• Have you ever been confronted with a cigar they you have stored that has "expired"?  What was it? 
• What is your temp and RH for storage?
• Do you vacuum seal/shrink wrap your cigars?  If you do, what has been your experience? Have you witnessed better results on some cigars/marques than others?  How long have you been doing it for? Are you a convert? 
• Any advice to other members? 

 

[KnightsAnole]

The plume debacle and it’s subsequent proof (or lack there of) is one of the greatest contributions this forum has made to cigars in general.

aging for me means 5+ years anything less is not. Benefits are about 50/50 and I laugh when I see people say it WILL get better with age.

I’ve never smoked a cigar that has “expired” I’ve smoked plenty cigars over 20 years that have become different, not expired and were excellent. Each cigar is an individual*. Aging one does not mean the next will be as good or as bad.
 

If cigars reach 5+ years for me now, it’s not intentional, nor do I think it’s necessary. It’s far more important to reduce moisture content in the majority of what I get and smoke.

[Corylax18]

• Do you have an ageing regimen? Yes. 
• In your experience, what are classic examples of cigars that require ageing and which ones don't? I think its taste/palate dependent. I dont like "rough edges" so I think just about every cigar can benefit from 5-8 years resting in your preferred conditions. 
• In your experience, what are classic examples of cigars that you believe "peak" after a certain period of time? What is the time period roughly? I haven't run into any of the old classics that ran out of steam. But the Punch La Isla is the first cigar I think of when I think "smoke now" I don't see that cigar evolving drastically over the long term. Some cigars are what they are. 
• Have you ever been confronted with a cigar thay you have stored that has "expired"?  What was it? No.
• What is your temp and RH for storage? 62-63% RH and whatever the ambient house temp is (65f to75f)
• Do you vacuum seal/shrink wrap your cigars?  If you do, what has been your experience? Have you witnessed better results on some cigars/marques than others?  How long have you been doing it for? Are you a convert? Some of them. I've only been doing it for about 5 years, so I cant firmly say that it does or doesn't work yet. My hope is that it noticeably slows down the aging process so that everything I'm buying now is still good in 40 plus years. I'm not a full convert yet, but the theory is sound. 
• Any advice to other members? Buy as many cigars as you possibly can. They wont go bad if you give them just a bit of regular care. Like a fine wine, hopefully they slowly keep getting better until you have the time to burn them. I view aging cigars like investing in my 401k. I forego a little pleasure now, in the hopes of a lot more later. 

[Kevin48438]

• Do you have an ageing regimen?  Yes
• In your experience, what are classic examples of cigars that require ageing and which ones don't?  Most of my ageing experience is with NCs.  A lot happens because I just haven’t gotten to them yet.   But for intentional aging, some notes off the top of my head: 

Anything with a Cameroon wrapper.  Usually picks up/enhances a sweet, cinnamon note.

My favorite cigars are those that engage all zones of my palate.  Tip of tongue, just behind that, the top of tongue, the sides, plus the retrohale.   If that is present, then bonus points for balancing the flavor intensity of the zones.   In my mind, ageing is letting the cigar evolve toward that balance.  If each zone is a surround sound speaker, I want to hear every instrument of the orchestra at the appropriate volume.

Cigars with a creamy texture smoke versus an oily texture smoke.  It’s been my experience that creamy smokes will become more balanced more quickly than oily ones.  Many oily ones may change, but not toward balance    Ones that do, it takes a lot longer than creamy ones.

• In your experience, what are classic examples of cigars that you believe "peak" after a certain period of time? What is the time period roughly?  The previously mentioned Camerron cinnamon thing is 4-8 years.
• Have you ever been confronted with a cigar thay you have stored that has "expired"?  What was it? Old Jamaican cigars.  Pretty mild to start and after 15+ years, not much flavor left.
• What is your temp and RH for storage?  65% rh, house temp 70f-ish
• Do you vaccuum seal/shrink wrap your cigars?  If you do, what has been your experience? Have you witnessed better results on some cigars/marques than others?  How long have you been doing it for? Are you a convert? No, but I’m going to look into what Cory wrote.
• Any advice to other members?  While it may seem wasteful or weird, smoking 4 (or more?) cigars at once (various ages) and getting instant comparisons is worth the education.

[Bagman]

Do you vaccuum seal/shrink wrap your cigars?  If you do, what has been your experience? Have you witnessed better results on some cigars/marques than others?  How long have you been doing it for? Are you a convert? 

Yes, and my goal is to become a subject expert on the subject.  I have 400 boxes vacuumed sealed up, and I have been doing that for 7 years.  I started out on some non-cubans that aged terribly.   After 3 years they were still amazing, without it, they would have been expired.  I have cigars that I took from the same box and split them up into 3 piles.  Regular age, vacuum aged, and vacuum in the freezer age (yes, they have been in the freezer now for 4 years).  Will give them 5 more years and then see how it pans out.  I stocked up in my many trips to Cuba back in that glory 2017 thru 2019 period. And my many many purchases here.  I'm set for life if this vacuum sealing pays off.  Some of them will have to hold up for 40 years in vacuum seal.

Every time I open a box of vacuumed cigars the smell is nearly orgasmic!  So far vacuum seal has been a big win for me.

[jakebarnes]

The intro to this brought me flashbacks to being first indoctrinated into the darkness. That feeling when an old head sent me a PM with my first source. Visions of 5x5 Monte 4's dancing in my head. Chills.

[Chas.Alpha]

.

[jakebarnes]

• Do you have an ageing regimen? It's a spreadsheet. It's got dates on it that tell me when I things should move from one column to the other. Sometimes post-its that say "don't touch until" on them. 
• In your experience, what are classic examples of cigars that require ageing and which ones don't? PL is a big one for me and so is ERDM. I don't feel like either one hits right until they have certain age on them. 
• In your experience, what are classic examples of cigars that you believe "peak" after a certain period of time? What is the time period roughly? Not sure I think many do. I might be an exception though.
• Have you ever been confronted with a cigar thay you have stored that has "expired"?  What was it? I've been given some poorly stored cigars that "peaked" but that had nothing to do with the cigar, and everything to do with the storage. 
• What is your temp and RH for storage? 58-65*, 62-65 RH. Coolers can do only so much on ambient and my basement can only stay so cool during certain times. 
• Do you vaccuum seal/shrink wrap your cigars?  If you do, what has been your experience? Have you witnessed better results on some cigars/marques than others?  How long have you been doing it for? Are you a convert? Never tried. Seems like a lot of work. 
• Any advice to other members? You gave me too much of a soapbox here. Don't take it seriously. Enjoy what you enjoy and never stop being curious about the world of cigars--all this shit is subjective. Most importantly: don't gatekeep. We're all here for a shared interest. it's one thing to disagree, it's another to engage in wild conjecture that chastise others.

[TheGipper]

In these threads, I always learn something about vacuum sealing from the people who never tried it.

In this thread, I found out that the effort of vacuum sealing, which consists of:

1. Vacuum seal a box -> time cost, about 30 seconds

2. Let vacuum sealed box sit for 5 or 10 or however many years -> time cost, zero

3. Cut open the vacuum seal bag once aged to preference -> time cost, cutting open the bag takes maybe 10 extra seconds

...and this sum total of 40 seconds of work across 5 years is just too much effort and not worth it.

[BrightonCorgi]

My biggest regret in 25+ years of Habanos cigar smoking is not vacuum sealing boxes earlier.  I ran out of room in the Aristocrat and that was my limit on buying.  I started vacuum sealing about 4 years ago and cigars are better aging (perhaps slower) than those just sitting in the cabinet.

[KCCubano]

46 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

My biggest regret in 25+ years of Habanos cigar smoking is not vacuum sealing boxes earlier.  I ran out of room in the Aristocrat and that was my limit on buying.  I started vacuum sealing about 4 years ago and cigars are better aging (perhaps slower) than those just sitting in the cabinet.

My Aristocrat is packed to the bajeezers. I just smoke out of singles drawer and front boxes. I have a very bad back so rarely dig through it to find specific boxes. Therefore every box on all sliding trays that are in back get aged. Last year I found a 07 box of CoRo that had and still has never been touched. Nice find! 

[Puros Y Vino]

• Do you have an ageing regimen? 
  • Somewhat.  Boxes that I have multiples of get Saran wrapped and socked away.  They are opened in oldest first order. Unless I have a very old box that I want to age longer.
• In your experience, what are classic examples of cigars that require ageing and which ones don't?
  • I have a lot of old boxes either through me aging them or buying them with age already.  The aged ones I've bought have been excellent smokes but I have no idea on how they progressed since their "birth".  As for the ones I've been aging myself (as in bought fresh  and set aside):
    • Cohiba Esplendidos, Lanceros, Siglo II, SIglo VI, 1966
    • Partagas Lusitania, D4, E2, P2
    • ERDM Choix Supreme
    • Montecristo Petite Edmundo
    • Ryj Cazadores, Churchills, Short Churchills, Wide Churchills.
    • Punch Punch
    • La Esecpion Selectos Finos and Don Jose
    • H Upmann Mag 46 & 50.  (The 50 has become stronger/bolder over time, which I did not expect, but enjoy)
• In your experience, what are classic examples of cigars that you believe "peak" after a certain period of time? What is the time period roughly?
  • I haven't aged enough cigars for a significant period of time to have an opinion on this.    Haven't smoked many duds I'm happy to report.
• Have you ever been confronted with a cigar they you have stored that has "expired"?  What was it? 
  • Of my already aged pile, I've found that a 1985 Davidoff Dom Perignon was a faint smoke.
  • 2005 LFDC Selectos bought in 2017 smoked great.  Smoked a couple in 2020, they faded significantly.
  • A 1998 Cabinet of HdM Du Dauphin, not a strong smoke to begin with, has remained static since I bought them in 2012 and quite enjoyable.  Consider this an outlier.
  • I had two OR Cohiba Maduro Genios. Smoked the first one around 2014 and it was excellent.  Smoked the next in 2017 and it had waned significantly.  Mind you this is a small sample and could be related to that one cigar.  However, friends with the same cigars have mentioned they are flailing as well.
  • In short I haven't experienced many dead cigars. I've smoked Clear Havanas from the 1920's through the 50's and a few Pre-Rev H Upmann from the WWII era and have found them to be excellent and very much alive.  I've even revived a few old cigars from the 70's that smoked great when slowly rehumidified.
• What is your temp and RH for storage?
  • Temps range from 16 - 18C and RH is steady at 62 in my large cabinet. Slighly lower temps in my coolidors.
• Do you vacuum seal/shrink wrap your cigars?  If you do, what has been your experience? Have you witnessed better results on some cigars/marques than others?  How long have you been doing it for? Are you a convert? 
  • I started wrapping boxes in Saran Wrap with the intent of sampling from them over time and comparing them to boxes I haven't wrapped.  I've yet to begin as not enough time IMO has passed.  I do believe that the practice can limit air/gas exchange and thereby slow down the aging process (or whatever process is going on inside those boxes)   I might invest in a vacuum sealer.  I've also bought a large roll of glassine to try out.  I'll only do this for cigars I have multiple boxes of.  For some larger cabinets, I've put them in large ziploc bags to see if that slows things down.
• Any advice to other members? 
  • I get asked this now and then on other forums, discord, etc.  My first point to them is that there are no real quantitative studies on this, only qualitative.  MRN was the first to document what he observed in terms of aging and it is a good start for anyone interested in aging cigars.
  • When I'm asked what cigars can benefit from aging I mention the following:
    • In general, anything Partagas ages well. RASS is always a good candidate for a 5+ year sleep as they really start to develop their flavours after then.
    • If you have money to burn, Cohiba Esplendidos can go for decades.
    • H Upmann Mag 46 and 50 do wondrous things with age.
    • The classic Montecristo cigars are also good candidates. The Open series is very light and not worth laying away.
• In general, aim for cigars that you've smoked, that you found to be bold/strong. They're the best candidates for aging. A key to them aging nicely is to keep the RH steady around 62 and the temps around 14-17C. It's always good to sample from the boxes you put down as they may hit a "sweet spot" that you like. And perhaps they're best smoked then? There is no magic # in terms of years. Let your palate be the qualifier.
• If you're going to jump into this area, you'll need to start smoking strategically.  In that you'll have to take a scientific approach to what you're going to smoke, what you're comparing it against (age wise, same cigar ofc). You'll need to take notes, mark the dates, etc.  I haven't started doing that myself yet. I tend to pick what I feel like smoking. I may hit up a box more often because I like how it's smoking or not touch it for years no matter how good it smokes.
• I will say, I almost enjoy curating my collection as much as smoking it.

[PigFish]

Cigar husbandry is full of myth and junk science. Most if not all is subjective and anecdotal. Right from wrong can only be proven by the existence of fines.

Fines exist as the result of poor PMC control, a fact. While wholly my opinion, PMC affects cigar taste (more myth and folklore, if you insist).

Cigar aging is an end result of hoarding, collecting, forgetting and can even be intentional. For me, it is a byproduct of hoarding and simply having more cigars than I can smoke in a day. I actually view it negatively as a concept. It is another mass effort to divide and stratify the smoking public to haves and havenots, while at the same time making the haves’ collection of greater value. In short it is collector bullshit to bolster envy.

Controlling water content in cigars is the only fact/science based variable that the end user has under his control. I would hazard to say that UV is likely another, as it is in nature a destructive force, but most are not likely allowing for beach chair storage so I bring it up somewhat whimsically.

All the power to you all in your beliefs. I will continue to trust in God, shun gurus, believe in my own tastes and use a fully automated climate controlled precision storage space to control water content in my cigars.

-tP

 

[joeypots]

 

• Do you have an ageing regimen? 
• I rarely break a box before I’ve had it for three years. Something longer than five years is more my habit. I get the cigars, look them over, and put them away. I usually smoke two or three cigars a week so I’m not holding hundreds of boxes in order to have a nice supply of smokes that are ready to go. I tend to smoke through three or four boxes at a time rather than graze everything I have but that’s because I don’t have thousands of cigars.
• In your experience, what are classic examples of cigars that require ageing and which ones don't?
• I concur that moisture content is a more important factor than age for about the first five years of a cigars life. Old wet cigars are terrible. Vitola is more a guide than marca to decide what’s ready to smoke. Most of my cigars are sampled at about 5 years but some smaller gauge vitolas, like a PC, can be fine at two or three. I think MC, Cohiba, H Upman, RA, and Bolivar usually have legs and get great well after five years. Hoyos and the PSD#4 seem to smoke well young but the last box of PSD#4 I sampled had powerhouse cigars that are destined for greatness. 
• In your experience, what are classic examples of cigars that you believe "peak" after a certain period of time? What is the time period roughly?
• I don’t have many cigars that are over ten years old so I don’t know.
• Have you ever been confronted with a cigar they you have stored that has "expired"?  What was it? 
• No.
• What is your temp and RH for storage?
• Between 60 and 70. Never higher than 70. Not more than 65% rh in the cabinet and my desktop close to 60-62%rh.
• Do you vacuum seal/shrink wrap your cigars?  If you do, what has been your experience? Have you witnessed better results on some cigars/marques than others?  How long have you been doing it for? Are you a convert? 
• I do have a few boxes wrapped in cellophane, most over six years old and the hope is that the cigars will age gracefully. I don’t have any strong opinions about the results. 
• Any advice to other members? 
• Don’t get too obsessed about this stuff. RH with young cigars is critical. 62% works great for me. If I have a very good box I’ll take the last few and put them in tubes for the long term. Tubos are great for aging!  

[Cairo]

19 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Have you ever been confronted with a cigar they you have stored that has "expired"?  What was it? 

I have some NCs that definitely expired--since I still have some that are in the twenty year old range.

The surprising thing is that most of them are still in great shape.    The "pepper" taste so common in NCs is still there twenty years later--it just mellows out.

The "non-pepper" milder NCs are at greatest risk for fading--whether they are Nicaraguan, Honduran or Dominican.

[Lamboinee]

Do you have an ageing regimen? 

Yes, but it is not very scientific. With my CC's I often split boxes and I smoke one or two as soon as they have rested from shipping. The rest I tuck away and try to smoke one or two a year and see how things develop. With my NCs, I usually buy way more than I need/want. So I have always kept an overstock. The aging was almost accidental. 

In your experience, what are classic examples of cigars that require ageing and which ones don't?

I do not have enough experience with this to give a useful answer. 

In your experience, what are classic examples of cigars that you believe "peak" after a certain period of time? What is the time period roughly?

Not enough experience to answer. 

Have you ever been confronted with a cigar they you have stored that has "expired"? What was it? 

Yes, several NC's, but I do not have enough experience with aged/vintage CC's to an answer with respect to CC's. 

There have been several NC's that I recall aging for too long. I cannot remember many of them specifically, but the ones that "expired" all tended to be lighter in body and/or strength. My experience definitely seems to suggest that more strength/body in NCs tends to age better long term, oftentimes this correlates with darker wrappers, but I can't speak objectively to that. One recent example I can attest to was an AVO 7-8-7 which I estimate I had been aging for at least 10 years from a box I purchased. This was one of my favorite smokes and was produced by AVO, in my opinion, during their best years. The 7-8-7 was still a good cigar, but it was definitely on the verge of turning papery and dull after 10+ years. Another example was an Oliva Master Blend 2. Not a master blend 3, it was definitely a master blend 2 as it has the distinctive tobacco laser etching design on the wrapper. These cigars were delicious and I don't know much about them. I purchased a half box of them in Charleston in about 2011. At that time they already had some age on them. I smoked the remainder of them over about the last 3 years. All of them had improved in flavor and complexity with exception of 1. The cigar that didn't improve had been stored, for a myriad of reasons, in a much less consistent environment and was in a humidor that got way too dry for about 3-5 months. I mention this example as evidence of how improper environments can impact aging. 

What is your temp and RH for storage?

My primary aging/storage humidor is between 64-66% RH and 66-69 degrees Fahrenheit. 

Do you vacuum seal/shrink wrap your cigars? If you do, what has been your experience? Have you witnessed better results on some cigars/marques than others? How long have you been doing it for? Are you a convert? 

The only experience I have with this is a friend decided to try vacuum packing cigars from a box split once. He used the lowest setting on the vacuum packer. The cigars were not in a box, rather they were tied together in a "wheel" formation. DO NOT DO THIS. All of the cigars had some degree of warping upon arrival. Some were significantly warped. Just about all of them regained their shape after a couple days, but a couple still show distinct signs of the damage. Has it affected the smoking? It's hard to say overall as I have only smoked about 4 of those cigars. However, one specific example developed a crack upon lighting that ran from foot all the way to the band. The wrapper crack was distinctly straight and coincided with a "crease" in the cigar that was almost certainly caused by the vacuum package. 

Lesson: DO NOT VACUUM SEAL INDIVIDUAL CIGARS OR CIGARS NOT IN A BOX. 

Any advice to other members? 

I think my best advice would be 1) have fun, 2) be patient, the only way to experience the impact of aging is to wait or buy aged cigars, 3) realize that the process and experience and effort of aging is worth it. Don't smoke your aging cigars. Even if they aren't better in 10 years, you will still appreciate having tried the experiment. 4) A humidor is essentially an air tight box that doesn't give off odors and which maintains consistent temp and rh. You don't need a fancy humidor. You need a consistent humidor. Don't let $$$ get in the way of aging, as simple setups will suffice. 5) I've never regretted sharing/trading/whatever with a fellow brother of the leaf. I'm not suggesting that you give out a premium aged cigar to every Tom, Dick, and Henrietta, but if you know someone that really appreciates cigars, then don't be afraid to share your last two favorite XYZ cigars with them. I've often wondered if I would regret doing so, but I never actually have regretted it. In fact, it has always resulted in a better experience. 

 

[Puros Y Vino]

1 hour ago, Lamboinee said:

Lesson: DO NOT VACUUM SEAL INDIVIDUAL CIGARS OR CIGARS NOT IN A BOX.

Yes. Do not vacuum seal dress boxes for the most part either.  Solid cabinets work best. A fried of mine did an experiment ages age.  With fivers vacuum sealed vs un-vacuum seald and dress boxes as well. Dress boxes applied an immediate box press and crush the box a bit.  But, you can mitigate that a bit I'm told.  He aged everything for 2 years and then smoked samples from each.

[kyee]

I'm a definite proponent of vacuum sealing boxes to prolong and enhance their "flavor".  I've unsealed boxes after 10 years in that have that strong pungent heavenly smell, and tasted like they were a freshie.  It can't make gold out of a dog turd, of course, so you need to start off with a decent starting point.  I typically will let a new box age/stabilize a few months in my Aristocrat humidor first, before sealing it up.

I have had some cigars go past their timeframe, although I don't think it's a hard date, it all just depends.  

[TheGipper]

1 hour ago, Puros Y Vino said:

Yes. Do not vacuum seal dress boxes for the most part either.

Nonsense.  I vacuum seal dress boxes all the time without damage, just hit the seal button well before the vacuum starts to get tight and it will be fine.

The benefit is in the *seal*, not the vacuum.

[Nevrknow]

50 minutes ago, TheGipper said:

Nonsense.  I vacuum seal dress boxes all the time without damage, just hit the seal button well before the vacuum starts to get tight and it will be fine.

The benefit is in the *seal*, not the vacuum.

This. Surprising how many times I have had to explain you do not have to let it run its course. When it's sealed to your preference just hit "seal". Food and cigars. Seeing pics of " hard vacced " cigars makes my skin crawl. I just follow the Rob adage of " should I ? " And walk away. 🤣

[Greenhorn2]

I would hate to have a box of cigars vacuum sealed. How the hell would you get one out to smoke without messing up the seal?

[Bagman]

3 hours ago, TheGipper said:

Nonsense.  I vacuum seal dress boxes all the time without damage, just hit the seal button well before the vacuum starts to get tight and it will be fine.

The benefit is in the *seal*, not the vacuum.

One lesson I learned over time is that it needs to be tight.  I see people say "leave a little air".  To me it is the second before box crushing.  The reason is that occasionally seals break.  It may be a small one, but seals can fail.  When the plastic is firm against the box, you can quickly tell if a seal failed.  I have to fix 4-5 a year.  No idea why they occasional fail.  And my error rate on 4-5 on 400 boxes is 1%, so not bad.  But every 6 months I quickly run my fingers across all my boxes too see if I have any seal failures.  If the bags were even a little loose, it would take much longer to verify.  Of course the seals could break because I create such a tight seal.  Who knows!  But I like seeing that tight seal and knowing I sucked out 99% of the air.

 

2 hours ago, Greenhorn2 said:

I would hate to have a box of cigars vacuum sealed. How the hell would you get one out to smoke without messing up the seal?

You clearly need more cigars!

1 box opened, 7 boxes of the same cigar vacuumed away!

When you finish that opened box, open the next.  But another, vacuum it up.  And repeat.

[Greenhorn2]

1 minute ago, Monterey said:

You clearly need more cigars!

1 box opened, 7 boxes of the same cigar vacuumed away!

When you finish that opened box, open the next.  But another, vacuum it up.  And repeat.

I have my humidor packed. If I  bought another box, I would need another humidor. Another humidor with just one box doesn't make sense, I would have to buy a bunch of boxes so the one box by itself wouldn't be lonely. Not going down that rabbit hole, again. Plus I probably won't live that long. I damn sure not planning on having a large collection of cigars when I die just to leave them to someone who will end up trashing or giving them away because they have no interest in them. Nope,nope, no, I'm perfectly fine. When you get some age on you, perspectives really change in life.

[TheGipper]

16 minutes ago, Monterey said:

I see people say "leave a little air".  To me it is the second before box crushing.

Yep.

I have seals fail occasionally, but every single time a seal failed, it was within days of sealing the box.  Never had one break after weeks/months/years.  Making sure the sealing edge is straight with no wrinkles makes a difference too.

[Bagman]

7 minutes ago, Greenhorn2 said:

 When you get some age on you, perspectives really change in life.

I say the same thing about my vacuumed cigars