The aging voodoo thread. Everything on ageing/vacuum sealing/shrink wrapping et al?

[joeypots]

I use a small roll of pallet wrap stretch film to seal boxes. Works like a charm and it’s inexpensive.

 

 

[BrightonCorgi]

On 2/5/2023 at 3:06 PM, jakebarnes said:

Does anyone have a good recommendation for vacuum sealing? Ideally economical?

Weston is the brand buy if you're in the States.  Which one depends on you needs.  I vacuum seal boneless jamon's and prosciutto's.  I bought one that do 18" wide vacuum bags.  A good vacuum sealer will be one of your most used and cherished kitchen items. Don't skimp and end up buying it twice...

[MrBirdman]

On 2/5/2023 at 3:20 PM, Corylax18 said:

DON'T cheap out on bags. You can get really crappy "fakes" on amazon/Ebay/Etc. that have cheap, high VOC plastic, that has a much higher permeability than the good ones.

Can you recommend a brand, either here or via PM?

[BrightonCorgi]

1 minute ago, MrBirdman said:

Can you recommend a brand, either here or via PM?

I buy from this store on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/FoodVacBags/page/DEE95E2A-626A-4CA3-972C-3455D9181EE3

 

[MrBirdman]

10 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

I buy from this store on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/FoodVacBags/page/DEE95E2A-626A-4CA3-972C-3455D9181EE3

 

Gotcha. I've been using wevac which seems pretty similar.

[Corylax18]

9 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

Can you recommend a brand, either here or via PM?

 

7 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

I buy from this store on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/FoodVacBags/page/DEE95E2A-626A-4CA3-972C-3455D9181EE3

 

I've used these before and they work well. My parents insist on buying the Foodsaver branded bags and they work well, but they typically cost more than other "brands."

I feel like there are probably only a handful of factories on the planet making these and they just wholesale/repackage for the dozens of different brands. They need to be polyethylene. Foodsaver says they add nylon for durability, some manufacturers ad Polyamine to decrease the oxygen permeability, I'm not so sure about all that though. 

The manufacturer linked below goes with the standard Nylon/Poly blend, but 7 layers Deep!!  

My only firm recommendation is not to cheap out. There are more thin/crappy bags on the market than good ones. 

https://outofair.com/comparison-with-other-bags

[MrBirdman]

1 minute ago, Corylax18 said:

 

I've used these before and they work well. My parents insist on buying the Foodsaver branded bags and they work well, but they typically cost more than other "brands."

I feel like there are probably only a handful of factories on the planet making these and they just wholesale/repackage for the dozens of different brands. They need to be polyethylene. Foodsaver says they add nylon for durability, some manufacturers ad Polyamine to decrease the oxygen permeability, I'm not so sure about all that though. 

The manufacturer linked below goes with the standard Nylon/Poly blend, but 7 layers Deep!!  

My only firm recommendation is not to cheap out. There are more thin/crappy bags on the market than good ones. 

https://outofair.com/comparison-with-other-bags

Ok - gonna take the plunge on these. I already have two rolls but your advice is well put and I'd rather go with a brand that a member has tried and approved. Thank you Cory. 

[alephilmac]

1 hour ago, Corylax18 said:

I've used these before and they work well. My parents insist on buying the Foodsaver branded bags and they work well, but they typically cost more than other "brands."

I feel like there are probably only a handful of factories on the planet making these and they just wholesale/repackage for the dozens of different brands. They need to be polyethylene. Foodsaver says they add nylon for durability, some manufacturers ad Polyamine to decrease the oxygen permeability, I'm not so sure about all that though. 

The manufacturer linked below goes with the standard Nylon/Poly blend, but 7 layers Deep!!  

My only firm recommendation is not to cheap out. There are more thin/crappy bags on the market than good ones. 

https://outofair.com/comparison-with-other-bags

Thank you for all the information!

[BrightonCorgi]

1 hour ago, Corylax18 said:

I've used these before and they work well. My parents insist on buying the Foodsaver branded bags and they work well, but they typically cost more than other "brands."

I feel like there are probably only a handful of factories on the planet making these and they just wholesale/repackage for the dozens of different brands. They need to be polyethylene. Foodsaver says they add nylon for durability, some manufacturers ad Polyamine to decrease the oxygen permeability, I'm not so sure about all that though. 

The manufacturer linked below goes with the standard Nylon/Poly blend, but 7 layers Deep!!  

My only firm recommendation is not to cheap out. There are more thin/crappy bags on the market than good ones. 

https://outofair.com/comparison-with-other-bags

Those are reasonably priced, thanks!

[bummy]

On 2/3/2023 at 12:37 PM, Monterey said:

Do you vaccuum seal/shrink wrap your cigars?  If you do, what has been your experience? Have you witnessed better results on some cigars/marques than others?  How long have you been doing it for? Are you a convert? 

Yes, and my goal is to become a subject expert on the subject.  I have 400 boxes vacuumed sealed up, and I have been doing that for 7 years.  I started out on some non-cubans that aged terribly.   After 3 years they were still amazing, without it, they would have been expired.  I have cigars that I took from the same box and split them up into 3 piles.  Regular age, vacuum aged, and vacuum in the freezer age (yes, they have been in the freezer now for 4 years).  Will give them 5 more years and then see how it pans out.  I stocked up in my many trips to Cuba back in that glory 2017 thru 2019 period. And my many many purchases here.  I'm set for life if this vacuum sealing pays off.  Some of them will have to hold up for 40 years in vacuum seal.

Every time I open a box of vacuumed cigars the smell is nearly orgasmic!  So far vacuum seal has been a big win for me.

Hi Monterey hope your well mate

just wondering if you vacuum seal with a Boveda pack or not,vacuum seal sounds a great idea 

[Bagman]

13 hours ago, bummy said:

Hi Monterey hope your well mate

just wondering if you vacuum seal with a Boveda pack or not,vacuum seal sounds a great idea 

Without.  For this answer, see my second comment on page #2.  And yes, vacuum seal for the win.  I'm the guy in a lazy boy with a big bag of popcorn with 400 vacuum sealed boxes watching people pay 2-3 times what I paid telling me that vacuum sealing is dumb   (Just having some fun here!) 

At least I bought some nudies, not totally out of the game.

[gormag38]

On 2/4/2023 at 5:10 PM, Monterey said:

The person that I believe does this (store outside the humidor), has commented on this thread.  I'll let them speak to that if they choose.

Apologies if this was already addressed somewhere (I missed it if so). Like many here, I am also packed to the brim in my main humidor and my overflow bins, so I'm thinking about converting to the vacuum and storing OUTSIDE my main humidor. My basement keeps a relatively stable temperature (maybe 17C +/- 3 degrees throughout the year) and I was hoping to just store these vacuumed sealed boxes on some shelves. I get that theoretically speaking it should be just fine, have you heard any reasons for why not to do this? 

Appreciate the response and hope all has been well. 

[Lt4-396]

16 hours ago, gormag38 said:

Apologies if this was already addressed somewhere (I missed it if so). Like many here, I am also packed to the brim in my main humidor and my overflow bins, so I'm thinking about converting to the vacuum and storing OUTSIDE my main humidor. My basement keeps a relatively stable temperature (maybe 17C +/- 3 degrees throughout the year) and I was hoping to just store these vacuumed sealed boxes on some shelves. I get that theoretically speaking it should be just fine, have you heard any reasons for why not to do this? 

Appreciate the response and hope all has been well. 

Once you vacuum seal you basically remove the need for humidity control. As long as temp is stable you are good to go.

I've vacuum sealed with a 62% or 65% on the outside of the box for extra insurance and an easy way to ensure some level of RH consistency. Again, not completely necessary but it's cheap and I have a bunch of the smaller packets.

My buddy keeps 80% of his collection vacuum sealed on wire rakes in his basement with temp conditions similar to yours. Been doing it for many many years. I do the same as well but for shorter amounts of time. My basement stays at about 67F all year.

Just test out how long your cigars take to reacclimate after removing them from the vacuum seal.

[BrightonCorgi]

I can see vacuum sealing replacing walk-in's at Duty Free.

[TacoSauce]

Apologies if I am missing the full history of this discussion, but it seems to me that the vacuum part of "vacuum-sealing" might not be required? It seems like the main goal is simply to seal the box in an environment of the desired humidity which can be done by leaving out the vacuum part and just sealing. Sucking out all of the air might remove most of the oxygen and prevent long-term oxidation; however, non-vacuum sealing would leave only a small amount of residual air which wouldn't be expected to have a large oxidation potential compared to the fully vacuum sealed state.

I understand that adding the vacuum component makes the packages cooler looking and perhaps easier to stack and store, but I am curious if the vacuum part is claimed to be important for some other reason?

[La_Tigre]

On 2/2/2023 at 7:37 PM, Monterey said:

Do you vaccuum seal/shrink wrap your cigars?  If you do, what has been your experience? Have you witnessed better results on some cigars/marques than others?  How long have you been doing it for? Are you a convert? 

Yes, and my goal is to become a subject expert on the subject.  I have 400 boxes vacuumed sealed up, and I have been doing that for 7 years.  I started out on some non-cubans that aged terribly.   After 3 years they were still amazing, without it, they would have been expired.  I have cigars that I took from the same box and split them up into 3 piles.  Regular age, vacuum aged, and vacuum in the freezer age (yes, they have been in the freezer now for 4 years).  Will give them 5 more years and then see how it pans out.  I stocked up in my many trips to Cuba back in that glory 2017 thru 2019 period. And my many many purchases here.  I'm set for life if this vacuum sealing pays off.  Some of them will have to hold up for 40 years in vacuum seal.

Every time I open a box of vacuumed cigars the smell is nearly orgasmic!  So far vacuum seal has been a big win for me.

Do you seal with a small Boveda or without?

[gormag38]

4 hours ago, La_Tigre said:

Do you seal with a small Boveda or without?

I believe he mentioned that he does not....but others have thrown in a boveda pack on the outside for 'extra' assurance. If/when I start this process I plan on throwing a small boveda on the outside of the cabinet as a 'safety' measure. 

 

8 hours ago, TacoSauce said:

non-vacuum sealing would leave only a small amount of residual air which wouldn't be expected to have a large oxidation potential compared to the fully vacuum sealed state.

What you're saying makes sense to me in theory. Then again, so would a gallon sized ziplock bag. My guess is that by vacuuming they're just removing any possible chance at excess oxygen exchange. 

[83Nation]

As per usual, thank you all for your wisdom on aging. Based on what everyone contributed, it seems that vacuum sealing is most beneficial within the first 6 months. As someone who hasn’t tried this yet, is there an age that makes vacuum sealing pointless? I.e., I have a box from 2019 that I was considering to give this a shot with, but would it be better to try with a (newer) box from 2023? My general vacuum sealing chart would be:

Ideal Vacuum Sealing - box age < 6 Months
Acceptable VS - 6-18 months
Minimal bang for your buck - 18-36 months
Why bother, just smoke - 36+ months


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BrightonCorgi]

38 minutes ago, 83Nation said:

 As someone who hasn’t tried this yet, is there an age that makes vacuum sealing pointless?

Can vacuum seal any box at any point of its aging process. 

[Bagman]

On 5/7/2024 at 12:48 AM, gormag38 said:

Apologies if this was already addressed somewhere (I missed it if so). Like many here, I am also packed to the brim in my main humidor and my overflow bins, so I'm thinking about converting to the vacuum and storing OUTSIDE my main humidor. My basement keeps a relatively stable temperature (maybe 17C +/- 3 degrees throughout the year) and I was hoping to just store these vacuumed sealed boxes on some shelves. I get that theoretically speaking it should be just fine, have you heard any reasons for why not to do this? 

Appreciate the response and hope all has been well. 

Sorry, I don't poke around here anymore.  Lets just call it a difference of an opinion   Anyhow, someone emailed me that someone brought this thread back up, so I thought I would login and reply.

I continue to store an incredible amount of boxes in vacuum seal. I'm doing some long term studies on slowing down aging via mostly vacuum sealing. I also have some cigars vacuum sealed in my freezer. I think it has been 6 years now, going for 10!  Why? Because nobody else has.  Someone has to do it. I'll be doing some posts here when I conclude my vacuum analysis. The goal is to become the vacuum guru!

As for where to store boxes, I don't recommend just leaving a vacuum sealed box out in the open. For various reasons.  Vacuum seals are fickle. If someone bumped it accidentally, you could undo the seal. Seals can (though rare) just loose their seal. More common on boxes like Trinidad where the plastic around the clasp (sharp edges) over times wears down. I now use tissues and tape it to clasps and vacuum seal with that. You can get gigantic tupperware's for 20 bucks and put in like 20 boxes. Toss in a few boveda packs and you are safe against damage and broken seals. As I said, I have a lot of boxes and I check the seals once a year. If a seal broke, I may not notice it for up to a year. Since my boxes are in a large humidor, I don't have to worry about losing humidity and damage. I have like 400+ boxes sealed up and I find like 1 box a year with a broken seal. As I said, really rare.

As for other comments I've seen lately.

No, you don't put in a boveda pack when you seal. It would just be smashed against the box and do nothing.

There is no such thing as a sick period after you open a sealed box. If you do, you put the box in to early. I used to wait about a year after the box date to seal them up. That got out the ammonia and solidified a solid RH before putting them in a vacuum. It is important that your box is perfect RH because it will stay that way for a decade. No clue on how long to wait for new boxes as I haven't bought a box of Cubans since early 2022. But the cigars I do have are absolute perfection the day I open a vacuum sealed box. So happy I hoarded boxes between 2016 and 2021!

There is someone else here doing a 5 year study. They are doing it with a collaboration of a bunch of people here, but sadly, they are only doing it for 5 years. I'm more in the research of 10-20 years. Hoping I can keep my 2016-2021 collection for the next 35 years. But I do look forward to seeing the result of their study. You can search vacuum seal here and find it. The person left great notes about how the cigars were prior to sealing them up.

[Bagman]

10 hours ago, 83Nation said:

Ideal Vacuum Sealing - box age < 6 Months
Acceptable VS - 6-18 months
Minimal bang for your buck - 18-36 months
Why bother, just smoke - 36+ months
 

This is not correct. The point of a vacuum seal is to slow down the aging. I would almost flip your list around. If you have 3+ year cigars and you want them to last a long time, seal them now. It will significantly slow down the aging. As I said, if the goal is to age for a long long time, the ideal time would be doing it between 1 and 2 years. I would never vacuum seal a box under a year. Big mistake. The cigars would be stuck with that ammonia smell. Then you would experience that sick period and have to let them sit for 6 months. The only cigars or your category of "why bother" would be any cigars 8+ years where you need to smoke them now or they will start going south.

 

23 hours ago, TacoSauce said:

Apologies if I am missing the full history of this discussion, but it seems to me that the vacuum part of "vacuum-sealing" might not be required? It seems like the main goal is simply to seal the box in an environment of the desired humidity which can be done by leaving out the vacuum part and just sealing. Sucking out all of the air might remove most of the oxygen and prevent long-term oxidation; however, non-vacuum sealing would leave only a small amount of residual air which wouldn't be expected to have a large oxidation potential compared to the fully vacuum sealed state.

I understand that adding the vacuum component makes the packages cooler looking and perhaps easier to stack and store, but I am curious if the vacuum part is claimed to be important for some other reason?

Vacuum seal is critical to prevent any possible air exchange. You could get somewhat similar results putting you cigars in a zip lock bag, but air will eventually exchange in the bag no matter what you do. Those bags also would allow humidity to exchange which causes humidity issues (and is proof their is air exchange). If the goal is to slow down aging, vacuum sealing is your only option.

[gormag38]

Thanks @Monterey for clarifying a few things. I'm gonna give it a go with a large tupper as my backup I believe. Most of my boxes are within the 2-5 year range and I have a tray stuffed with older singles that I mostly pull from. Seems like a good time period for me to start sealing. Enjoy that stash good sir and I look forward to hearing how the ageing goes. 😉

[Bagman]

21 hours ago, gormag38 said:

Thanks @Monterey for clarifying a few things. I'm gonna give it a go with a large tupper as my backup I believe. Most of my boxes are within the 2-5 year range and I have a tray stuffed with older singles that I mostly pull from. Seems like a good time period for me to start sealing. Enjoy that stash good sir and I look forward to hearing how the ageing goes. 😉

2-5 years is a great time to seal up the boxes if you want them to last for another 10 years. You can seal up singles, but it is tricky. You can't crush a cigar with a model you get at Costco, but you can damage the wrapper.

The key I forgot to mention, if you want it to go the distance, is that you have to keep them cold. 55-60 would be the sweet spot. I keep mine at 60 for 8 months of the year, then 62 for the summer. I have a room for my cigars with a mini-split a/c and the lowest it goes is 62.

For newbies, try it out on Non-Cubans. I find they don't age as well. Take 2 boxes of something you like, seal one up, let the other sit. 2-3 years out try it. You will be amazed at the difference.

Last note, when I open a box I have had for like 10 years, I'm hit with a big wonderful smell. I think to myself  "My cigars were stewing in that" and it makes me happy. Others like big walk in humidors with open boxes and flavors evaporating. My complete opposites.