The aging voodoo thread. Everything on ageing/vacuum sealing/shrink wrapping et al?

[Fugu]

18 hours ago, PigFish said:

I actually view it negatively as a concept. It is another mass effort to divide and stratify the smoking public to haves and havenots, while at the same time making the haves’ collection of greater value. In short it is collector bullshit to bolster envy.

I understand where you’re coming from, but not sure I agree with you on that, Ray. That’s painting with too broad a brush for me. Like many here, guilty of “hoarding” cigars myself: either ‘one-offs’, i.e. specials with a limited production life or particular “vintages” considered great at time of release. Or cigars/formats that one knows for long and love(d) and that are no longer being made (you know this all too well...), or the future of which is/was uncertain, or vitolas that were always hard to come by. And, indeed, not least cigars that are proven to profit immensely from ageing (read: proven to oneself, even if anecdotally). Or, finally, may it just be for the “lowly” motive to counter price inflation trends. And let’s not dismiss it: for many the collecting is as much fun as it is in the smoking.

Carefully getting those cigars matured and trying to preserve their best condition for future enjoyment is not out of reason, and thus thriving for the best methods to the avail of that is anything but objectionable (who am I telling...). And, sure, even if the byproduct of that is that they appreciate in value over time.

[Perla]

• Do you have an ageing regimen? 

As I am very sensitive to ammonia I don’t smoke cigars under an age of +-5 years. The only cigar I couldn’t get enough was the SP Gran Quixote RE BeLux, which was great when young. 

• In your experience, what are classic examples of cigars that require ageing and which ones don't?

Aging requirement for me is LGC, Cohiba, Trinidad and MC ESP  2

It’s all about the taste and what you were looking for. That requirement can change of the years/decades. 

• In your experience, what are classic examples of cigars that you believe "peak" after a certain period of time? What is the time period roughly?

When the ammonia is gone. Than, for me, the real deal is showing up under the surface. 

Surprisingly for me, as I do not smoke & own a lot of NC, they are evolving over time. Bought two single Olivia Lancero five years ago. Smoked one it was 🤢. Last summer I tried the remaining Lancero and it was great. So great I bought a box. 

Conclusion: not written in stone. 

 

• Have you ever been confronted with a cigar they you have stored that has "expired"?  What was it? 

Yes, it was LGC Sabrosos from 2000 which went blunt and boring. And ERDM Elegantes from 1998 which went from outstanding to average in 5 years. There I was disappointed not tasting the mint chocolate anymore. But it was still a good smoke. 

• What is your temp and RH for storage?

RH is 65 and temperature 18 degrees. 

• Do you vacuum seal/shrink wrap your cigars?  If you do, what has been your experience? Have you witnessed better results on some cigars/marques than others?  How long have you been doing it for? Are you a convert? 

Oh yeah there was a time when I tried to air tight the cigars. 

I put them in a airtight jar. Resume for me is, not every cigars is mend to be. Never do it with RE cigars. The foot of the cigars were partial damaged, so the outcome was not what I wanted. 

I did it as well with a box of JL Petite Corona, the ammonia stayed in the cigars for years. Box code 2009 and for me smoke able in 2020. They are quite nice to smoke, no doubt about it. Would I do it again? Definitely now. Don’t see the benefit in it. 

 

• Any advice to other members? 

Trust your guts, your taste buds. Preferences can change and come back. 

Share cigars with friends. Have a good laugh, good time and sh@t on the rest. 

Live is too short to be serious and remember you are a longtime dead. 

[Greenhorn2]

14 hours ago, Monterey said:

I say the same thing about my vacuumed cigars

I hope you can enjoy those cigars. For me, cracking open boxes of 40 year old vacuum sealed cigars would put me at 96 years old. I doubt I'll make it that far. I've had far too many friends saving this and that for " special occasions " only to pass on and never get to indulge and enjoy the things they considered special in life. I'm with pigfish, enjoy while you can, tomorrow is never promised.

[Popof4]

Hadn't smoked CCs in over 2 decades, then started again 7 ys ago, becoming more serious 3-4 yrs ago. So these are data points, but I am following this thread for what is to me valuable information.

• Do you have an ageing regimen?  Try 1 or 2 or more sticks from a newly purchased box and put it away for as long as I can keep my hands off. If I grab more than 1 box, I put the sealed box away.  I have no full or partial boxes older than 3-4 yrs old.
• What is your temp and RH for storage?  T = 65-69f  RH 63-67
• Do you vacuum seal/shrink wrap your cigars?   I have a few desktop humis for smokes I will burn in the next year or so.  I have the rest of my boxes full and partial in 2 gallon zip lock bags with 1-4 boxes, 10s,25s,50s and 1 or 2 Boveda packs.  

Thank you everyone for their input and sharing your expertise. Never stop learning.

[Puros Y Vino]

22 hours ago, TheGipper said:

Nonsense.  I vacuum seal dress boxes all the time without damage, just hit the seal button well before the vacuum starts to get tight and it will be fine.

The benefit is in the *seal*, not the vacuum.

I did say you can mitigate the crushing of your boxes.  Thanks for clarifying the "how".

[TheGipper]

4 minutes ago, Puros Y Vino said:

I did say you can mitigate the crushing of your boxes.

You can more than mitigate it.  It's very easy to eliminate it entirely.

There's no reason you can't or shouldn't vacuum seal dress boxes as you suggested.

[Bagman]

5 hours ago, Greenhorn2 said:

I hope you can enjoy those cigars. For me, cracking open boxes of 40 year old vacuum sealed cigars would put me at 96 years old. I doubt I'll make it that far. I've had far too many friends saving this and that for " special occasions " only to pass on and never get to indulge and enjoy the things they considered special in life. I'm with pigfish, enjoy while you can, tomorrow is never promised.

Clearly missing the point.  Why can't you enjoy now and tomorrow?  It isn't a binary choice.  I bought enough cigars to equally enjoy today and tomorrow.  And yes, I'll enjoy the many boxes of Colonials I bought for 151 bucks, not just today, but for a long long time.

You need to learn to enjoy it all.  Your theory in life is how people will end up old and broke.  Why save?  Enjoy the now!

[TheGipper]

What is it about vacuum sealing that brings out all the people who never tried it and are itching to tell the rest of us how wrong we are about it?  Every thread that touches on the subject, every time.  It's so weird.

[MrBirdman]

On 2/2/2023 at 8:37 PM, Monterey said:

Do you vaccuum seal/shrink wrap your cigars?  If you do, what has been your experience? Have you witnessed better results on some cigars/marques than others?  How long have you been doing it for? Are you a convert? 

Yes, and my goal is to become a subject expert on the subject.  I have 400 boxes vacuumed sealed up, and I have been doing that for 7 years.  I started out on some non-cubans that aged terribly.   After 3 years they were still amazing, without it, they would have been expired.  I have cigars that I took from the same box and split them up into 3 piles.  Regular age, vacuum aged, and vacuum in the freezer age (yes, they have been in the freezer now for 4 years).  Will give them 5 more years and then see how it pans out.  I stocked up in my many trips to Cuba back in that glory 2017 thru 2019 period. And my many many purchases here.  I'm set for life if this vacuum sealing pays off.  Some of them will have to hold up for 40 years in vacuum seal.

Every time I open a box of vacuumed cigars the smell is nearly orgasmic!  So far vacuum seal has been a big win for me.

Do you vacuum seal with a Boveda or without?

[hawkeye5050]

Has anyone tried cycling RH to “accelerate” aging? I have heard of this but not tried… Some stretch of time @ 62% and then much lower and back again to 62%, etc. etc. 

[Bagman]

15 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

Do you vacuum seal with a Boveda or without?

Without.  I don't see the point.  I guess in a cab it might work.  But for most boxes the boveda would be smashed against the side and not do anything.  I know someone here who seals boxes and leaves them in their basement, but I store my sealed boxes in my humidor.  In theory, if you properly seal the box, the humidity/water vapor would never change.   But I have the space so I just seal up without a boveda pack and leave the box in a 65% humidor.  I have never opened a sealed box and found a box with any humidity issues.

22 minutes ago, TheGipper said:

What is it about vacuum sealing that brings out all the people who never tried it and are itching to tell the rest of us how wrong we are about it?  Every thread that touches on the subject, every time.  It's so weird.

Wouldn't you be pissed off if you weren't wise enough to do vacuum seal boxes and were paying 1,060.80 for the same box of Colonials we paid 151 for and were enjoying just as much!  Venting is common reaction after learning you made a mistake

[MrBirdman]

1 minute ago, Monterey said:

In theory, if you properly seal the box, the humidity/water vapor would never change.

My brain tells me this but I’m still nervous about it. I was looking to clear up some humidor space with it, but for long term aging stuff I can just keep in the humi. 

Question for those here: do you vacuum at the age you like them or just fresh (or in between)?

[Bagman]

1 minute ago, MrBirdman said:

My brain tells me this but I’m still nervous about it. I was looking to clear up some humidor space with it, but for long term aging stuff I can just keep in the humi. 

Question for those here: do you vacuum at the age you like them or just fresh (or in between)?

The person that I believe does this (store outside the humidor), has commented on this thread.  I'll let them speak to that if they choose.

I should also add that temp play a big roll.  I keep them at 60 degrees for 9 months of the year.  65 during the summer (wish I could keep 60 all year round)

I vacuum seal between 6 months to 1 year from box date (or 3 months after I receive them if they are older), just to get them to my desired RH level.  You would want to do it prior to peak as they will age some while sealed up. You may also need to age them slightly after you open them up.  Some cigars taste great immediately, some need some time to release some built up gases.

15 minutes ago, hawkeye5050 said:

Has anyone tried cycling RH to “accelerate” aging? I have heard of this but not tried… Some stretch of time @ 62% and then much lower and back again to 62%, etc. etc. 

If slowing down age is low temps and no oxygen, it would reason that more oxygen (open your box, have a computer fan going) and higher temps would speed up aging.  Just a guess, my goal is never to speed up time, just slow it down, so I know little about that.

[Greenhorn2]

3 hours ago, Monterey said:

Clearly missing the point.  Why can't you enjoy now and tomorrow?  It isn't a binary choice.  I bought enough cigars to equally enjoy today and tomorrow.  And yes, I'll enjoy the many boxes of Colonials I bought for 151 bucks, not just today, but for a long long time.

You need to learn to enjoy it all.  Your theory in life is how people will end up old and broke.  Why save?  Enjoy the now!

Don't get me wrong, to each is their own. If you want to vacuum seal your stogies for years to come , knock yourself out and I hope it serves you well. I myself plan to leave my boxes accessible and smoke whichever I want, when I  want. I thought that part of the cigar experience was about smoking through boxes and seeing the change of cigars over the years? Maybe if I was fortunate enough to have 5-10 boxes of the same marca/vitola then I  can see the vacuum sealing/long term aging you are discussing. But in my case I  probably have 4 or 5 cigars in my collection where I have 2 boxes instead of one. If you ever have a split second near death experience, it will change one's whole perspective of this thing we call life. 

[TheGipper]

Wondering if some of ya'll go on the Vanguard forum and armchair philosophize at them?  "If you want to put money into a 401k or IRA, knock yourself out..."

[Bagman]

1 hour ago, Greenhorn2 said:

If you ever have a split second near death experience, it will change one's whole perspective of this thing we call life. 

I'm more in the camp of planning for the future while enjoying the now.  Thats not your cup of tea.  And that is fine.  I'm just very happy with the decisions I made. I can only give advice to those that want to go down the path of enjoying cigars now and into the future.  And yes, I do have 5-11 boxes of every box of cigars I enjoy, mostly 8 of each.

[Greenhorn2]

1 hour ago, Monterey said:

I'm more in the camp of planning for the future while enjoying the now.  Thats not your cup of tea.  And that is fine.  I'm just very happy with the decisions I made. I can only give advice to those that want to go down the path of enjoying cigars now and into the future.  And yes, I do have 5-11 boxes of every box of cigars I enjoy, mostly 8 of each.

Sounds like you need to put that shrink wrapper to work then,lol. Nothing wrong with planning for the future, it's just that it seems like in the past year or two I've been making more and more trips to the funeral home.  When you're talking about aging for 40 years, that's half of a lifespan, if you're lucky. As I feel my carcass deteriorate from years of use and abuse, I doubt I'll see 40 more. If you're fairly young and healthy, go for it, nothing wrong with trying something different. Hope it all works out for you.

[HuffnPuffff]

What is it about vacuum sealing that brings out all the people who never tried it and are itching to tell the rest of us how wrong we are about it?  Every thread that touches on the subject, every time.  It's so weird.

Same as the thorny subject of sous-vide cooking; a marmite issue. It’s the damnedest thing.


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[Silverstix]

I store everything in air tight Tupperware storage bins. For this reason I never thought that vacuum sealing was necessary. I have 1 large bin for all of my stuff that I consider ready to smoke, 1 large bin dedicated to long term storage >5 years, and another bin for overflow, a combo of ready to smoke and long term. Smaller food grade Tupperware for my singles.


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[jakebarnes]

Does anyone have a good recommendation for vacuum sealing? Ideally economical?

[Corylax18]

4 hours ago, jakebarnes said:

Does anyone have a good recommendation for vacuum sealing?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KCK9W1K/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Its not the cheapest, nor most expensive, but it has the best features for what I'm trying to do. I've vacuum sealed close to 1,000 lbs of Beef, Elk and Venison(over several years), thousands of rounds of ammo, and a few dozen boxes/bundles of cigars. It just keeps on ticking. 

4 hours ago, jakebarnes said:

Ideally economical?

DON'T cheap out on bags. You can get really crappy "fakes" on amazon/Ebay/Etc. that have cheap, high VOC plastic, that has a much higher permeability than the good ones. I dont think the brand name matters, but I prefer something labelled "food safe" for sous vide cooking. 

People go all crazy and spend $500 bucks on a vacuum sealer, then cheap out on bags. The machine is involved for about 1 minute, max. The bags need to do their job for years and years. 

[Rhinoww]

What I find interesting is that Bond Robert’s shows us that pretty much any aged cigar has a market, and price rarely goes down for well humidified sticks.  
We hear about sticks that are well maintained for 20-30 years being “excellent” smokes. 
while my collection is no longer in growth mode, I think I will continue to rely on the sealed weathertight containers and coolidors. With the exception of my main Coolidor, the rest are opened maybe three times a year to restock the singles tray. 
I have yet to have a stick that “aged out” as opposed to one that is simply a dud. 
so for me, while there may be some science behind the vacuum sealing, I will not likely be investing a lot of effort sealing up what I have. 
But that’s me. 

[Corylax18]

23 minutes ago, Rhinoww said:

so for me, while there may be some science behind the vacuum sealing, I will not likely be investing a lot of effort sealing up what I have. 
But that’s me. 

Totally Fair. I already had the vacuum sealer, so the incremental cost increase for the bags I've used is less than my cheapest box of cigars. If you add the thousands I've saved butchering/freezing my own sides of beef and game animals over the years the whole system has paid for itself 7 or 8 times over.  Its also a lot of fun to mess around with in the Kitchen. 

[Bagman]

If you will get to all your cigars with under 10 years of age, then vacuum sealing makes little sense.  If you stockpile and you are looking at well beyond that, or you smartly realize that at some point tobacco will be illegal and you need to stock up, then vacuum sealing is a no brainier.

[Rhinoww]

38 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

Totally Fair. I already had the vacuum sealer, so the incremental cost increase for the bags I've used is less than my cheapest box of cigars. If you add the thousands I've saved butchering/freezing my own sides of beef and game animals over the years the whole system has paid for itself 7 or 8 times over.  Its also a lot of fun to mess around with in the Kitchen. 

Totally fair as well. I have a vacuum sealer and agree it has helped a variety of meats do much better in the freezer. I have a few boxes sealed, but it makes my jenga a bit more challenging as I pack things I  pretty tight and the edges make things a bit more challenging although if I really trusted the seals I could just store on a shelf. 
I have less than 20 years worth of sticks in hand at current smoking rates so I’ll take the bet that my cool storage at a constant 65 rh will keep what I have in smokable shape until I have smoked them all.