Bolivar Corona Gigantes (and others). Could they really have been saved?

[El Presidente]

I was reading the commentary on the  Bolivar Libertador and the outcrying of emotion for the Bolivar Corona Gigante. 

You would swear it was the Ed Sheeran of cigars 🤣

Reality? It was one of the great dust collectors in terms of cigar retail.

 

Does that make it a bad cigar? No. It was an excellent cigar.

Does it make it worse than the Bolivar Libertador? No. I think it was a superior cigar. 

Do I like answering my own questions? Absolutely.

So how does how an inferior cigar (subjective) beat the pants off the BCG in terms of sales? 

The Libertador is an immense sales success.

What lessons could be learnt for a BCG comeback?  

 

 

[Corylax18]

6 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

So how does how an inferior cigar (subjective) beat the pants off the BCG in terms of sales? 

Marketing. That was easy. Next. 

[Hammer Smokin']

which one had more labels? 

two labels is better than one label. 

[Corylax18]

On 1/16/2023 at 4:01 PM, El Presidente said:

What lessons could be learnt for a BCG comeback? 

BCG wont be coming back. HSA has learned that they can continue shoving more and more cheap volado/seco into each wrapper leaf. Reducing the count per box while drastically increasing the price paid per stick. The ROI on a Libertador is probably double or triple what the BCG was. 

Suckers have been happily lapping it up for years, LE's, RE's, new releases all getting shorter and fatter every day. But the packaging is Fancier!! Haha  Why is anyone mad at HSA for discontinuing the charade? Now they just tell you, "F^@k You, Pay us More." The Cigar buying public has been screaming at them for years to do just that. 

[Cigar-Therapy]

2 minutes ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

which one had more labels? 

two labels is better than one label. 

Add a 3rd label at the foot… 

[Corylax18]

1 minute ago, Cigar-Therapy said:

Add a 3rd label at the foot… 

And you have your RyJ Linea De Oro!! Genius I tell you, we should start a cigar company. 

[JohnS]

Cigar like the Bolivar Coronas Gigantes can only come back, in our current environment, if brave Distributors such as the Pacific Cigar Company (PCC) bring them out as a special Regional Edition like the El Rey del Mundo Tainos or Punch 8-9-8, for example. (I must also make a special mention of other recent releases such as the Quai d'Orsay Clemenceau, La Gloria Cubana Medaille d'Or Especial, Punch ManTua and El Rey del Mundo La Reina.)

Unless Habanos S.A has a complete 180° change in management policy (probably as a result of a political coup against the Cuban government bringing nationwide systemic change or something similar) I can't see it happening.

[Corylax18]

6 minutes ago, JohnS said:

Cigar like the Bolivar Coronas Gigantes can only come back, in our current environment, if brave Distributors such as the Pacific Cigar Company (PCC) bring them out as a special Regional Edition like the El Rey del Mundo Tainos or Punch 8-9-8, for example. (I must also make a special mention of other recent releases such as the Quai d'Orsay Clemenceau, La Gloria Cubana Medaille d'Or Especial, Punch ManTua and El Rey del Mundo La Reina.)

This isn't "bringing a cigar back" though. Its trying to replicate a blend, with different tobacco, adding a second band, fancy packaging and charging you 5 or 6 times as much per stick. What you describe above is an active part of the problem, maybe the single largest part of the problem, not a solution. 

[JohnS]

1 minute ago, Corylax18 said:

This isn't "bringing a cigar back" though. Its trying to replicate a blend, with different tobacco, adding a second band, fancy packaging and charging you 5 or 6 times as much per stick. What you describe above is an active part of the problem, maybe the single largest part of the problem, not a solution. 

In the current environment, you would think it's the best that can be hoped for?

Quoting half my reply without the full context misconstrues my original intention there, Cory.

If I may re-iterate it in full below...

Unless Habanos S.A has a complete 180° change in management policy (probably as a result of a political coup against the Cuban government bringing nationwide systemic change or something similar) I can't see it happening.

[RDB]

I’ve no idea really, but I fear for my beloved Lusitania. How much more does it cost to make a Lusi do we think, compared to say a D4?
 

Long, moderate RG cigars just seem like a less profitable avenue for HSA - I say this purely on the basis that they don’t seem to want to make them.

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, Corylax18 said:

BCG wont be coming back. HSA has learned that they can continue shoving more and more cheap volado/seco into each wrapper leaf. Reducing the count per box while drastically increasing the price paid per stick. The ROI on a Libertador is probably double or triple what the BCG was. 

Suckers have been happily lapping it up for years, LE's, RE's, new releases all getting shorter and fatter every day. But the packaging is Fancier!! Haha  Why is anyone mad at HSA for discontinuing the charade? Now they just tell you, "F^@k You, Pay us More." The "Cigar buying public has been screaming at them for years to do just that. 

QD Imperiales are making a comeback. Well in a different form.....but a comeback 

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, Corylax18 said:

Its trying to replicate a blend, with different tobacco, 

That is exactly what blending is. That is what a blender does. 

No two crops are the same. It is the blender who takes into account the differing aspects of the tobacco and blends to achieve the profile desired. 

 

[PuroDiario]

2 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

BCG wont be coming back. HSA has learned that they can continue shoving more and more cheap volado/seco into each wrapper leaf. Reducing the count per box while drastically increasing the price paid per stick. The ROI on a Libertador is probably double or triple what the BCG was. 

Suckers have been happily lapping it up for years, LE's, RE's, new releases all getting shorter and fatter every day. But the packaging is Fancier!! Haha  Why is anyone mad at HSA for discontinuing the charade? Now they just tell you, "F^@k You, Pay us More." The "Cigar buying public has been screaming at them for years to do just that. 

Could one simply say that HSA is producing/giving cigar smokers what the cigar smoking public want/are willing to purchase? Even say that most smokers like wider ring gauges and large formats and generally easy cigars? So while a communist regime, if a business ultimate purpose is to make money, why would they bring back anything unless it makes them an equivalent margin or creates aspirational demand for their other products? La Reina and such after are fairly niche in terms of target market (more tailored to the so called “experts” that want the thin RGs that reminisce the good old days and willingly pay it at 5 times the prices). Are those suckers too? Or the ELs purchasers, that want to buy something special and buy the whichever random EL cigar bc they believe on the special ageing and leaf selection of the leaf selection, and so forth or simply don’t have a 1,000 cigars stash at home, or they just collect them or whatever. Are those suckers too? Why?
 

so the guy that pays up for a Porsche or Lambo which carries a VW engine. That’s also a sucker? The guys that pay thousands of dollars for a regular Taylor Swift concert, or us paying $30 for a cotton shirt with a vintage Cohiba printed logo, we are morons too?
 

I just don’t understand criticism to Habanos by making fun or categorizing the consumer. The consumer is generally, if not always, right. Whether in China or elsewhere. 

On another note, I have gifted Libertador to several people after a good lunch or dinner. People that like cigars but are a few notches down in their passion/commitment to the hobby relative to all of us friends here; and all loved it, some of them described it as the best cigar they ever had (not my opinion)…well above Cohibas, Trini, Lusis, aged stuff they smoked off my stash. Are them idiots? Maybe, but they represent a truer picture of the regular cigar smoker than us I would think. And I don’t think that because it is more profitable to sell them Libertador than BCG you can assess their idiocy.
 

To Rob’s point, BCG was not a hugely popular cigar at all…although my great-uncle Manolo absolute loved them alongside his Monte 2. I loved it too in a much more limited experience with it, and kept as a treasure a 90s box I inherited from grandfather till the very last puff of the last stick. But I assure you today’s average cigar smoker would very much skew towards Prominentes sized cigars. Vitolas are industrial design after all, and today’s public like different things. Look at an iPhone from 10 years ago vs todays. Things change, is not only a pállate driven experience. The eye plays it’s part too, the holding it, etc.
 

I get it, the situation is frustrating, but I cannot help to wonder when the whining and complaining may see an end. Much more fun to discuss the fun part, in my humble opinion. Or at least being critical within reason and rationally, and avoid categorizing the end consumer as a moron, especially when some of those end consumers are here amongst us in the community. 

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, PuroDiario said:

I just don’t understand criticism to Habanos by making fun or categorizing the consumer. The consumer is generally, if not always, right. Whether in China or elsewhere. 

There is a lot of this going on and it is at best immature and at worst demeaning. I don't think it is intentional. 

People can spend their money be it on cars, watches, memorabilia etal as they see fit. They earn it, they can spend it in any God damn way they like. 

In terms of criticizing nationalities for their spending, I just have a chuckle. The old maxim of when you point a finger, three are pointing back at you comes into play.  

I am a huge believer in the consumer having the right to move their spend. It is the ultimate scorecard be it for Habanos or Tesla or any consumer good. I look forward to seeing how it all plays out. 

 

 

 

[jakebarnes]

4 hours ago, RDB said:

I’ve no idea really, but I fear for my beloved Lusitania. How much more does it cost to make a Lusi do we think, compared to say a D4?
 

Long, moderate RG cigars just seem like a less profitable avenue for HSA - I say this purely on the basis that they don’t seem to want to make them.

I feel the Jordan effect will continue to help the Lusi. They sell.

[Ybor]

4 hours ago, El Presidente said:

QD Imperiales are making a comeback. Well in a different form.....but a comeback 

Have you had a chance to sample the No. 52’s and are they expected to distribute through PCC/FOH?

[El Presidente]

2 hours ago, Ybor said:

Have you had a chance to sample the No. 52’s and are they expected to distribute through PCC/FOH?

Those imbeciles  couldnt arrange a shag in a knock shop.

Yes we will get them. Timeline? Your guess as good as mine.

[99call]

The large RG craze seems to have been enjoyed most in China and America, and that's where the market has pandered. As Rob said people can spend their money as they see fit.  If you're like me and you don't enjoy that, you just have to get your wins where you can.   libertadors and E2s are so good you just have to get over the stupid dimensions enjoy that aspects that are enjoyable.  Lock jaw not being one of them

[El Presidente]

30 minutes ago, 99call said:

The large RG craze seems to have been enjoyed most in China and America, and that's where the market has pandered.

Keep in mind (base level)  that a Double Robusto costs $2.00 to produce, a Mareva costs $1.50. It is actually closer than that but work with me. 

For the US market, Federal tax is 41 cents a cigar (regardless of size). 

You are a cigar manufacturer. What are you producing keeping in mind ROI?   

[SCgarman]

1 hour ago, 99call said:

The large RG craze seems to have been enjoyed most in China and America, and that's where the market has pandered. As Rob said people can spend their money as they see fit.  If you're like me and you don't enjoy that, you just have to get your wins where you can.   libertadors and E2s are so good you just have to get over the stupid dimensions enjoy that aspects that are enjoyable.  Lock jaw not being one of them

Not all Americans buy into the large goofy phallic size cigars, myself included. I have seen guys smoking 60/70 ring gauge in lounges and it looks plain stupid. But whatever, to each his own. A 50 ring Robusto is large enough, forget anything larger.

[Ford2112]

How anyone can stomach a 60 ring or larger cigar guage is beyond me. It's idiotic. 

 

[cigaraholic]

Don’t worry, the BCG will be back, in a $hiny box of 10, for an ungodly amount of money.

[SCgarman]

5 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Keep in mind (base level)  that a Double Robusto costs $2.00 to produce, a Mareva costs $1.50. It is actually closer than that but work with me. 

For the US market, Federal tax is 41 cents a cigar (regardless of size). 

You are a cigar manufacturer. What are you producing keeping in mind ROI?   

Isn't a roller in Havana expected to produce 100 Marevas in an 8 hour day? How many double robustos are they expected to roll? In Nicaragua they roll as a team with one buncher and one doing wrappers. How much more efficient is this and would it ever be adopted in Havana? 

 

[Corylax18]

19 hours ago, JohnS said:

In the current environment, you would think it's the best that can be hoped for?

Quoting half my reply without the full context misconstrues my original intention there, Cory.

If I may re-iterate it in full below...

Unless Habanos S.A has a complete 180° change in management policy (probably as a result of a political coup against the Cuban government bringing nationwide systemic change or something similar) I can't see it happening.

Haha. Pie in the sky. Its hard to know exactly how a change in regime would shake out, but dont forget that the whole operation is a 50/50 joint venture. I dont think getting more capitalists involved would all of a sudden make the company want to invest in lower ROI products instead of higher ROI products, but I guess, we can always hope? I don't think RE/LE's/LCDH specials as is are the best that customers should hope for. Its the best that HSA can hope for, constantly growing revenue on steadily shrinking unit sales. That's a board/stock owners wet dream, Frankly it would take bad management to go the other way. 

18 hours ago, El Presidente said:

QD Imperiales are making a comeback. Well in a different form.....but a comeback 

You're just proving my point. 5 fewer cigars in a fancier box, more bands and glitter for a grossly elevated price. Its the exact opposite of what a cigar smoker should want. Its the exact opposite of what any informed consumer should want. Its great for Tabacuba/The Cuban Government, its great for the HSA partnership. But its the status quo now. People have not only accepted it, but embraced it. The jokes on them, the trend isn't reversing now. There is no pressure from the supply OR demand side for it to change in any major way. 

18 hours ago, El Presidente said:

That is exactly what blending is. That is what a blender does. 

No two crops are the same. It is the blender who takes into account the differing aspects of the tobacco and blends to achieve the profile desired. 

 

You missed my point. I'm not doubting you could make a pretty close replica. I'm saying that being charged 3 or 5 times as much per stick for that recreation is a bad deal for the consumer. As you perfectly illustrated with your reference to the QD Imperiales. I'm sure both will be/could be good cigars. I know that both WERE good cigars, for a reasonable price, they definitely wont be that in the future. 

17 hours ago, PuroDiario said:

I just don’t understand criticism to Habanos by making fun or categorizing the consumer.

Im not criticizing HSA at all. When judged purely as business people, they're knocking it out of the park. They're doing their damndest to extract every possible penny out of every gram of leaf they can grow. Exploiting the farmers and workers on one end(within their countries laws) and increasing the ROI per unit sold quarter after quarter on the other end. Its a master class. Or their average buyer isn't very well informed. As the world wide economy slows down, I guess we'll all get to see which eventually. 

There is 5, 6, 7 year old filler tobacco piled up waiting for wrapper leaf. Filler that goes into regular production cigars all day, every day. Its not a secret that recent production has been amazing. Did you ever wonder why? An informed consumer would be seeking out those cigars, not cigars with a fancy story and the same, or younger tobacco. "Specially Ageing?" "Special Leaf Selection?" Give me a break. Tabacuba cant even roll one of each cigar in their regular portfolio every year. But you believe they can sort through all that tobacco, sample it, find the best, ship it to a specific factory, make sure it only hits a handful of rolling tables, then a select group of  QC employees? Good luck. You and any buyer of these "special" cigars is buying marketing. They cant even get regular old boxes right now, cigars, with aged filler, have been aging in Havana warehouses for months now waiting on boxes. Just regular old boxes. They have a snowballs chance in hell of executing all the steps correctly to consistently produce cigars worthy of the prices they're currently charging. 

 

17 hours ago, PuroDiario said:

so the guy that pays up for a Porsche or Lambo which carries a VW engine. That’s also a sucker? The guys that pay thousands of dollars for a regular Taylor Swift concert, or us paying

Yes. You can buy a 2010 VW Phaeton with a W12 engine that powered Bentley Continental GT's and Flying Spur's for over a decade. Are the Bentley buyers suckers? Not necessarily, but an informed buyer could get 80% of the Bentley for 20% of the price if they were willing to ignore the badges and woodgrain. There are similar, although less extreme examples up and down the VW lineup. Look at their EV platform. They have one, that they rebadge and repackage from $30k to over $100k. Are you a sucker for spending $100k on a rebadged $30k VW? Probably. Are you a sucker for spending $100 dollars on a rebadged $10 Imperiales? Probably! 

17 hours ago, PuroDiario said:

or us paying $30 for a cotton shirt with a vintage Cohiba printed logo, we are morons too?

No. Clothes are F'n expensive and I'm sure those shirts will be worn ragged. 

[El Presidente]

2 hours ago, SCgarman said:

Isn't a roller in Havana expected to produce 100 Marevas in an 8 hour day? How many double robustos are they expected to roll? In Nicaragua they roll as a team with one buncher and one doing wrappers. How much more efficient is this and would it ever be adopted in Havana? 

My pricing example simply reflects the impact of pure "tobacco cost" on the price of a cigar. It is negligible between a Mareva and a Double Robusto.Not quite 20% in the real world. With the increase in the wholesale price of NC tobacco, I expect this to change slightly, but it is unlikely to move the needle much. 

Rolling in teams is far more efficient in terms of quality and blend consistency. Given that is the case, you can almost certainly rule it out of ever occuring in Cuba