Question for the rev head fraternity. EV towing.

[El Presidente]

We had this discussion on Melbourne Cup Day. 

Our good mate Fabian purchased a Canyonero*  (RAM 1500) Tows 4.5 Tonne.  He fills up the tank leving the Czar deck to get home 10km away 

Plenty of petrol and diesel crew cabs (2X4 and 4X4) tow 3.5 Tonne. Most  don't tow more than 1.5 tonne. 

Now my next passenger car will be an EV. I don't have an issue with that.480 km range / 300 Miles is more than I need around town. 

However when it comes to towing, my understanding is that you can halve + your range in the best crew cab pickup EV's towing 1.5 tonne.  Go heavier and it obviously gets worse. Mind you, towing the same load in a diesel/Petrol has consequences. Just not so dire. 

EV's have plenty of torque. Range however while towing a boat/van on a highway has consequences. Add some hills and the foot on the peddle and it eats up the juice pacman style. 

Early days tech wise and no doubt they will improve. In Oz however, doing the around the country pilgrimige with the Mrs, dog, caravan and tinnie topper is simply not possible right now as you would be pulling over to top up the EV pickup every 200km.  Similar is driving along a soft sand beach for a week fully loaded. limited options for a top up. 

Is that correct or have I got all this tits up? Are there solutions to this?  

 

 

 

*Canyonero. Todays RAM 1500 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PigFish]

…. What’s an EV?🤠

[Bijan]

3 hours ago, El Presidente said:

s that correct or have I got all this tits up? Are there solutions to this?  

Correct though it will really hurt you uphill. And not so much on the flats.

Also the top end Tesla Cybertruck would have 800 km/500 mile range. So even half or a quarter of that is still not nothing (assuming you can fast-charge/supercharge along the way).

Edit: Video with explanation and the math.

 

[SpecialK]

you are correct @El Presidente :

 

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/ford-f150-lightning-electric-truck-towing-test/

 

[rolaand]

This is correct afaik. I'm not sure how long you need to go but if you find a level 3/dc fast charger you should be at 90% of capacity in about 40 mins. That being said, there are very rapid advances in battery tech and if you look at some of the more premium vehicles (like the Lucid Air) you can get significant range. Since the EV trucks are relatively nascent I'm not sure what the range improvements will be in the short term but I do know that bidirectional charging and some other functionality are coming in the near term. 

 

If I had to guess, you might be able to purchase a battery cell array in the near future that could increase range.

 

5 hours ago, Bijan said:

Correct though it will really hurt you uphill. And not so much on the flats.

Also the top end Tesla Cybertruck would have 800 km/500 mile range. So even half or a quarter of that is still not nothing (assuming you can fast-charge/supercharge along the way).

Edit: Video with explanation and the math.

now all you need is delivery of a cyber truck

[Bijan]

3 minutes ago, rolaand said:

now all you need is delivery of a cyber truck

Yeah I'd probably use the covered truck bed and that would solve the issue on the flats as the main factor is aerodynamics and not weight.

But if I needed it now I'd go with one of the EV vans. I think Ford EV Transit van isn't too bad for city driving (200km loaded).

[JY0]

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/never-worry-about-charging-your-ev-again-with-this-camper/

[El Presidente]

5 hours ago, Bijan said:

 

Also the top end Tesla Cybertruck would have 800 km/500 mile range. So even half or a quarter of that is still not nothing (assuming you can fast-charge/supercharge along the way).

 

Outback QLD can easily have 250km/300 mile stretches between towns.  Dirt roads on some, crap roads on most. Rolling resistance high 

[Fugu]

12 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Outback QLD can easily have 250km/300 mile stretches between towns.  Dirt roads on some, crap roads on most. Rolling resistance high 

Plus - you should keep A/C switched off if you want to make it through. 😂

[Bijan]

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

Outback QLD can easily have 250km/300 mile stretches between towns.  Dirt roads on some, crap roads on most. Rolling resistance high 

Here's the map of Tesla supercharges for Australia:

Realistically right now you could only drive from around Brisbane to Adelaide along the coast.

On the other hand this is the USA/Canada map:

 

50 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Plus - you should keep A/C switched off if you want to make it through. 😂

On that front AC is very low energy use vs heat. Probably more efficient to have AC on and windows closed, than AC off and windows open.

On the other hand heating in winter is pretty inefficient as it gets colder.

[Cigar Surgeon]

I'd just like to point out that for the map of Alberta (2nd over from the top left), our province is 661,848 km².  So 7 supercharging stations ... doesn't quite cut it. 

[Lamboinee]

Very correct - https://media.audiusa.com/en-us/releases/390

But see - https://evcentral.com.au/ev-towing-solution-power-up-your-caravan/

 

[El Presidente]

Our last govt were late to the party on EV infrastructure, largely because outside of the major cities, it doesn't work currently. They were also fossil fuel cheerleaders and evolving tech dinosaurs. 

The USA is largely made up of  small towns/cities spread relatively equally across the country. Oz is cities along the coast with huge spaces in between. 

[Bijan]

11 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Our last govt were late to the party on EV infrastructure, largely because outside of the major cities, it doesn't work currently. They were also fossil fuel cheerleaders and evolving tech dinosaurs. 

The USA is largely made up of  small towns/cities spread relatively equally across the country. Oz is cities along the coast with huge spaces in between. 

On the other hand that patch of cities from Brisbane to Adelaide and connecting towns is probably home to 2/3 (3/4?) of Australia's population?

[El Presidente]

2 minutes ago, Bijan said:

On the other hand that patch of cities from Brisbane to Adelaide and connecting towns is probably home to 2/3 (3/4?) of Australia's population?

Absolutely. 

Only the Forbidden Kingdom (Perth) is missing. They like to play in their own sandbox. 

[Chibearsv]

4 hours ago, Bijan said:

On the other hand heating in winter is pretty inefficient as it gets colder.

I hadn’t thought about that before. With no radiator, the heater and fan both need to draw from the battery. Doesn’t sound like a great idea for cold climates. I’m assuming they must produce enough heat to defrost windows but that’s got be a huge power drain. Maybe you need the ice scraper in the car while you drive…like the old VWs 😁

[Corylax18]

3 hours ago, Chibearsv said:

I hadn’t thought about that before. With no radiator, the heater and fan both need to draw from the battery. Doesn’t sound like a great idea for cold climates. I’m assuming they must produce enough heat to defrost windows but that’s got be a huge power drain. Maybe you need the ice scraper in the car while you drive…like the old VWs 😁

They also need to provide power to the battery heater. Li-Ion battery efficiency falls off a cliff around freezing. 

 

18 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Is that correct or have I got all this tits up? Are there solutions to this? 

You are pretty much bang on in describing the current state of things. Yes! There are solutions. Towing kills your range, regardless of fuel type. Ignore the fuel type and look deeper at the energy density of those fuels. Energy Density is the most important thing to track over these next few years. Lithium Ion Batteries where great. 10 years ago. They're legacy technology now though. Tesla batteries are literally just thousands of little flashlight batteries wired in sequence. 15 year old technology, with some small improvements along the way. 

Gasoline and diesel still carry more than 10 times the energy per liter or kilogram than most mast market Li-Ion Batteries. (.9 - 2.43 MJ/L vs 34.2 MJ/L) Until that disparity is Greatly reduced, batteries will not be able to replace hydrocarbons en masse. Solid state batteries (in theory) can cut that gap in half, But they're rapidly turning into the fusion tech of the battery world. We've only been 2-4 years from mass implementation for the last 7-10 years now. 

Hydrocarbons are where they are for a reason. Lots of reasons. They perfectly fit into the "goldilocks zone" of relatively easy to extract, refine and use, but still packed with energy. Lithium itself is just as damaging and expensive , if not more so, to mine than drilling oil. Hydrogen has more than 10 times the energy density of Gasoline, but it has taken over yet because its an expensive PITA to deal with. It needs to be chilled, Highly compressed, and stored at that cold, compressed state for long periods of time. That all takes a lot of energy and a very complicated fuel cell. None of which are needed for gas/diesel. 

The basic reality today is that the economics just aren't there. They will be and we're on the way, but without government subsidies, none of this electrification works on its own. Its why we don't have electric airplanes, trains, boats, anything used for long distance transportation. The physics equation is actually the simple part at this point. Its the economics and social calculus that isn't as clear. Its the same thing with Nuclear energy, if we where cold and calculated about that, we wouldn't be messing with any of this "renewable" crap. Solar plants and wind towers ruin millions of acres of beautiful nature for a very short term and expensive moral victory. They don't solve the problem, they barely even begin to address it. Just like our current battery technology doesn't come close to solving the problems they're being tasked with solving. 

[BoliDan]

7 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

I'd just like to point out that for the map of Alberta (2nd over from the top left), our province is 661,848 km².  So 7 supercharging stations ... doesn't quite cut it. 

With all that land, with little around it (Alberta, Saskatchewan etc), what are the chances some squatter builds a house where noone goes and never gets evicted 

[Cigar Surgeon]

13 hours ago, BoliDan said:

With all that land, with little around it (Alberta, Saskatchewan etc), what are the chances some squatter builds a house where noone goes and never gets evicted 

Property taxes. If history has taught anything it's that governments will always find a way of getting their taxes 😂