CA's Unboxing of Cohiba 55 - Counterfeit Box?

[Puros Y Vino]

Just now, mprach024 said:

I wouldn’t give $50 for the box pictures above.  There’s a 90% chance those are fakes, and CA getting swindled just makes me laugh, nor does it surprise me.  

To be fair. They wouldn't know they were swindled until they opened the damn thing up.  That they didn't notice it was "off" while doing so is somewhat embarrassing.  But IMO, given the recent 55th event in Havana, they wanted to have some meaningful, related content to reflect that.  Sadly it backfired. 

[Bijan]

1 minute ago, mprach024 said:

Nonsense!  Outside of regulars here and a few other forums, 99% still wouldn’t bat an eye or even look twice, and the quality control of counterfeiters is not some standard to aspire to.

 

For the sake of thought experiement you "inspect" a box of CoRo on the beach and there's a couple of RASS in there, you think 99% of people are going to be ok?

2 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

I wouldn’t give $50 for the box pictures above.  There’s a 90% chance those are fakes, and CA getting swindled just makes me laugh, nor does it surprise me.  

Phoenicia the equivalent of PCC (Rob's supplier), says these are legit, and apparently they're in the most reputable shops in the region (though not necessarily with the mismatched bands).

Though I too enjoy the thought of CA getting swindled.

[mprach024]

1 minute ago, Puros Y Vino said:

To be fair. They wouldn't know they were swindled until they opened the damn thing up. 

True.  Still funny though 😂

[Corylax18]

OK. Lets summarize. 

• CA shows off a box with multiple red flags. Two items we've seen from fakers before. 
• CA comments that its "Cuba being Cuba"(So "Blame it on HSA")
• @ATGroom follows up with Phoenician's story; "We provided these "legit" boxes to CA and every box we have has the same mistake"

We still dont know anything at all. CA says Phoenician told them it was HSA's fault, Alex says Phoenician admitted it was there fault and neither current explanation holds much water. 

If HSA is to be believed, the stamps are destroyed after their usage run. I would tend to believe them in this case, imagine a box of previous stamps sitting around somewhere in Havana. It would literally be worth more than its weight in Gold. Ive also never seen a legitimate repeat stamp, years after discontinuation. 

We're currently being asked to believe quite a yarn. Lets summarize how things would have had to go down for the story we're hearing to be true:

HSA rolled the cigars at El Laguito, banded them at El Laguito, threw them in a cardboard box and shipped them off to Phoenician. 

Phoenician sourced their own secondary bands, boxes and a fake stamp completely outside of HSA's established network. They then completely botched the unbanding/rebanding process and didn't QC any of the completed packages before they left their warehouse. They then told one person it was HSA's fault, that person posted that on their website. Then we get another story saying that Phoenician has accepted the blame. So which is it? 

I can see them standing there staring at the extra "premier" bands like a couple that just finished putting together an Ikea book case. "Were we supposed to have extra parts???"

Maybe it all went down that way. If it did, it doesnt make me feel any better about the situation. Maybe the current HSA has lost whatever remaining control they had over the boxing, stamping and banding process, if so, that's a very bad sign. Add it to the issues Rob has identified with Serial #s, and its hard to put any trust in any of it anymore. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Corylax18
Underlined sentence edited for clarity

[Bijan]

7 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

If HSA is to be believed, the stamps are destroyed after their usage run. I would tend to believe them in this case, imagine a box of previous stamps sitting around somewhere in Havana. It would literally be worth more than its weight in Gold. Ive also never seen a legitamate repeat stamp, years after discontinuation. 

If you look back on the thread these aren't the official stamps, people were complaining about these being random stamp font. Presumably Phoenicia did what the counterfeiters do and went to the regional equivalent of staples and bought a stamp and pad.

Behold the holy grail:

 

7 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

Phoenician sourced their own secondary bands, boxes and a fake stamp completely outside of HSA's established network.

If Fugu is right, stamps never leave Cuba and any boxing done outside Cuba shouldn't have a stamp. Therefore the only way these would have a stamp is if Phoenicia did that.

Even if Phoenicia had official bands, they can still mess up putting the wrong banded cigars in the wrong box (they had different bands for 2 counts and 5 counts).

[Cairo]

10 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

a couple that just finished putting together an Ikea book case. "Were we supposed to have extra parts???

It sounds like you have been spying on us.

☺️

[Corylax18]

Just now, Bijan said:

If Fugu is right, stamps never leave Cuba and any boxing done outside Cuba shouldn't have a stamp. Therefore the only way these would have a stamp is if Phoenicia did that.

Even if Phoenicia had official bands, they can still mess up putting the wrong banded cigars in the wrong box (they had different bands for 2 counts and 5 counts).

Yes, I've never seen any evidence indicating they leave the island. Or even the boxing room at each factory. Phoenicia had to source them from some random provider. Looking at the font, its the same random provider may of the counterfeiters use. 

I agree completely that Phoenician provided the fake box codes here. But why would they tell David Savona that HSA botched it, then tell Alex that it was their fault? There's more to this story then we're being told. 

[Puros Y Vino]

19 minutes ago, Bijan said:

If Fugu is right, stamps never leave Cuba and any boxing done outside Cuba shouldn't have a stamp. Therefore the only way these would have a stamp is if Phoenicia did that.

I think Cuba is one of those places where anything can happen and is up for grabs. I've seen Cuban Davidoff and Dunhill metal box stamps (to burn the logos on to cabinets) for sale on Ebay years ago. They sold for a lot of money. IIRC well up to and over $1k each and there were multiples of different sizes too. 

[helix]

How in the hell does Cuba even keep the so called blends (recipe) for each cigar consistent ? Certain leaf from different farms combined make up the recipe. Then ensure the rollers have it correctly sitting on the table in front of them to follow and produce said cigar . Then after that most complicated process to place on the wrong bands or place in the wrong boxes ? How in the Hell?

[Puros Y Vino]

41 minutes ago, helix said:

How in the hell does Cuba even keep the so called blends (recipe) for each cigar consistent ? Certain leaf from different farms combined make up the recipe. Then ensure the rollers have it correctly sitting on the table in front of them to follow and produce said cigar . Then after that most complicated process to place on the wrong bands or place in the wrong boxes ? How in the Hell?

Check out David Suckling's documentary(Cigars: Heart and Soul of Cuba". He covers this well. In short, some "old hands" inspect the harvested tobacco from various farms.  They "know" which ones should be used in various cigar blends and have them sorted and labelled.  Often it is these folks that determine if there is enough tobacco to make "x" cigar.  For instance. Not enough large quality wrappers? No Monte A's produced this cycle.  Not enough of the required leaf for Sir Winstons? No Sir Winnies made that cycle. 

[Carrie Nation]

1 hour ago, Corylax18 said:

Yes, I've never seen any evidence indicating they leave the island. Or even the boxing room at each factory. Phoenicia had to source them from some random provider. Looking at the font, its the same random provider may of the counterfeiters use. 

I agree completely that Phoenician provided the fake box codes here. But why would they tell David Savona that HSA botched it, then tell Alex that it was their fault? There's more to this story then we're being told. 

I don't think anyone said that the UAO boxcode was a "botch." That might be your interpretation, but there was never any indication by Savona or Phoenicia that the code was a mistake. All Premier boxes have this code. Here's his statement:

 

"While the UAO factory code has not been used on regular-production cigars from El Laguito for some time, it is indeed correct for this special release of the Premier edition of the new Cohiba 55. That information has been confirmed by Phoenicia and key people who are in Havana right now."

[zuhaib]

I posted my 2cents over on reddit but to me the whole 2nd band being wrong was not a major issue in terms of ID'ing if they are fake or not.  We know 55 being released everywhere else (right now it seems mostly just the middle east) hare being released without "Premier" band.  So it makes sense that someone might screw up if in a factory with both "Premier" and non-"Premier" label ones to get it mixed up.  Now as for if the screw up happen in Cuba or with Phoenicia i dont know, hell i did not even know that Phoenicia was doing its own bands and find that odd.  QC *should* catch it but hell even in high end manufacturing QC fails, I can only guess how bad QC is in a communist 3rd world country.

The code was the most sus thing when I saw the post, a dead factory suddenly coming to life. But even then that is not 100% off.  Does Cuba ever release official list of factory codes? AFIK no, we nut cases try to keep track of them.  Maybe Rob and PCC get answer if that but if cuba tomorrow decided to ditch factory codes for a QC code, we will likely only find out when a bunch of people get their hands on it.

So really the only thing you can do is trust the source, and, if CA and Phoenicia are trusted then these are legit just really poor example of them. Phoenicia should have maybe QC'ed it themselves before handing them to press

[El Presidente]

9 minutes ago, Carrie Nation said:

I don't think anyone said that the UAO boxcode was a "botch." That might be your interpretation, but there was never any indication by Savona or Phoenicia that the code was a mistake. All Premier boxes have this code. Here's his statement:

 

I don't have a problem with the UAO code being used for the Premier edition if they want to go in that direction. Well outside of the fact that it is the counterfeiters "code of choice". 

I am more surprised at the vision of mismatched bands. Hard to understand. 

[NSXCIGAR]

2 hours ago, Bijan said:

If Fugu is right, stamps never leave Cuba and any boxing done outside Cuba shouldn't have a stamp. Therefore the only way these would have a stamp is if Phoenicia did that.

These cigars should not have been stamped at all. They did not leave a factory in Cuba intact. It is now apparent that the cigars and boxes were shipped separately, packed and stamped by Phoenicia. They cannot and should not be stamped. Stamps indicate an intact box packed and sealed left that Cuban factory at that time. These evidently did not.

In the technical sense these are not "El Laguito" cigars and Phoenicia marking them as such and doing so outside of Cuba is about as close to the "F" word as you can get IMHO. 

[Tstew75]

9 hours ago, Bijan said:

100% I agree with that.

What I don't agree with is the "the sky is falling how will we ever trust another Habanos release again" sentiment.

As @Fugu said, if this is the case these shouldn't have had a box code at all. Box codes aren't even a security feature, they're a system for Cuba/Habanos to track which factory made which box when. Phoenicia probably thought people expect a box code, so just made something up, and here we are.

I agree with much you have said in this thread, but I take issue with you saying 'Box codes aren't even a security feature'. Of course they are, and that's why many are up in arms about this huge F-up. People message me all the time...'is this box fake?'...and about 98% of the time one glance at the factory code shows its fake. I don't have to look at anything else. The font that Habanos uses is 1000% (even if unintentionally) a security feature that helps us all determine if boxes are legit. Fakers never seem to get it right.  With this dumb change, we've lost yet another security feature. 

This is eroding trust in high end CCs at the worst time imaginable.

5 hours ago, El Presidente said:

I don't have a problem with the UAO code being used for the Premier edition if they want to go in that direction. Well outside of the fact that it is the counterfeiters "code of choice". 

I am more surprised at the vision of mismatched bands. Hard to understand. 

Would you have a problem with Phonecia using the 'UAO' code if they weren't actually rolled at El Laguito?

[El Presidente]

5 minutes ago, Tstew75 said:

Would you have a problem with Phonecia using the 'UAO' code if they weren't actually rolled at El Laguito?

I would have a problem there as UAO would be used to imply that they were rolled at El Laguito. 

 

[El Presidente]

I had to remove a post just now. 

A reminder to avoid defamation/slander/vilification in relation to this (and other threads). 

The issue can (and should) be discussed freely. 

However, when you post one photo of an illegal act ....and then attribute it to an organisation/person... you may find that you have crossed the line legally in some international jurisdictions. 

Be sensible. Discuss with intelligence 

[Bijan]

17 minutes ago, Tstew75 said:

The font that Habanos uses is 1000% (even if unintentionally) a security feature that helps us all determine if boxes are legit. Fakers never seem to get it right.  With this dumb change, we've lost yet another security feature. 

Yes i think I kind of mentioned how they never get it right and it's a useful test, in passing. And I so agree about that. And maybe you're right about it in practice being a security feature. But I'm not sure there's a difference between how many boxes have valid stamps and how many boxes have valid serials, maybe if we considered valid stamp + serial vs that + valid micro print there would be a difference.

But anyways we haven't lost this test, unless Habanos starts using stamps this random in Cuba.

Boxes stamped outside Cuba? This might be the first one ever. Too early to say this is not reliable anymore and no reason to think Cuba stamp fonts will be random going forward.

[mprach024]

The distributor is covering their ass with a lame story that they did this heinous act on their own and it’s their fault, to cover HSA and CA looking like idiots and possibly worse, incapable of managing/securing their own supply chain with legit product.  The loss of consumer confidence that legit product is arriving on the shelves and warehouses will spell doom for HSA.

Those are fakes, the rest of the story is a bunch of bologna as they scramble to save face.  You really think the disti is gonna be the first ever to stamp a box from outside the factory? And then use an extinct code? And mess up 20% of the bands?  Lol very very very very slim chance this perfect storm happens.  But….this is precisely the type of mistakes counterfeiters make.  Consistently.  

[Puros Y Vino]

Gotta ask. Is there any chance Habanos had these rolled at UAO when it was active, stockpiled them, but sanctioned the year being updated?

[Tstew75]

21 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

I would have a problem there as UAO would be used to imply that they were rolled at El Laguito. 

 

Agreed.

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

These cigars should not have been stamped at all. They did not leave a factory in Cuba intact. It is now apparent that the cigars and boxes were shipped separately, packed and stamped by Phoenicia. They cannot and should not be stamped. Stamps indicate an intact box packed and sealed left that Cuban factory at that time. These evidently did not.

In the technical sense these are not "El Laguito" cigars and Phoenicia marking them as such and doing so outside of Cuba is about as close to the "F" word as you can get IMHO. 

Did Phoenicia or HSA ever say where these are being rolled? Did they ever say El Laguito?

[Bijan]

2 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

Those are fakes, the rest of the story is a bunch of bologna as they scramble to save face.

Again let's assume they are fakes.

What is the story? Presumably CA did what most reviewers do, either got them from a reputable brick and mortar or from the distributor. So that means duty free or LCDH in that region have fakes. Are they buying direct from the fakers? Is the distributor selling fakes to them? Or is Cuba "exporting" fakes?

To me this is the Convo I imagine:

Habanas: hey Phoenicia here's your 2 packs to hand out at your the 55th anniversary event.

Phoenicia : thanks but there's way too many, can we sell some in 5 packs, we got some nice boxes.

Habanos: as long as I get my cut.

Phoenicia : hey, you mind if we put some El Laguito codes on them so we can charge more $$$

Habanos: yeah sure, just send the boxes to us and we'll stamp them and have them back to you in 3-5 years

Phoenicia : yeah... That's a no. How about we stamp them ourselves?

Habanos: yes/no/maybe/hell no/whatever

Phoenicia: cool, bye (UAO is the code for El Laguito right?)

[Tstew75]

Just now, Puros Y Vino said:

Gotta ask. Is there any chance Habanos had these rolled at UAO when it was active, stockpiled them, but sanctioned the year being updated?

That's possible...but it would mean they were rolled previous to Nov 2019, and knowing how perpetually behind they are on releases it's definitely a longshot theory, but interesting

[El Presidente]

6 minutes ago, Puros Y Vino said:

Gotta ask. Is there any chance Habanos had these rolled at UAO when it was active, stockpiled them, but sanctioned the year being updated?

Congratulations. You are the new Habanos Head of Marketing 

 

...when in trouble....call FRANK  

[NSXCIGAR]

55 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

I would have a problem there as UAO would be used to imply that they were rolled at El Laguito. 

It's far less likely that they were actually rolled there as they did not leave Cuba factory boxed, banded and sealed. I trust nothing. Stamps indicate rolling, boxing AND sealing at that factory--not that the cigars were merely rolled there and then shipped out to god knows where to be boxed by some buffoons intermixing premier and non-premier bands. 

I would say Cuba is much more honest in this regard. Even Cuba didn't stamp all the Phoenicia 35 as El Laguito despite them "supposed" to have all been rolled there. They easily could have covered it up but they didn't. If Cuba doesn't stamp it there's no way to know where it came from. 

32 minutes ago, Puros Y Vino said:

Gotta ask. Is there any chance Habanos had these rolled at UAO when it was active, stockpiled them, but sanctioned the year being updated?

Stamp doesn't come until they are boxed and going out the door. Technically a cigar could sit for 20 years and would have a SEP 22 stamp if they left today. If they had been boxed and stamped previously and sat around they should have the "revisado" stamp and a new date. 

39 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

You really think the disti is gonna be the first ever to stamp a box from outside the factory?

Well, they seem to be claiming they did. Are you suggesting Phoenicia is taking ownership of third party fakes? Not sure what you're getting at here.