CA's Unboxing of Cohiba 55 - Counterfeit Box?

[NSXCIGAR]

18 minutes ago, mbflash80 said:

Not to take this thread in an unintended direction, but I would love a little more color on this...are we talking about how they made claims about exclusive leaf or about exclusive factories being used? I have really enjoyed most of the regional releases from Phoenicia so this is of interest to me.  Best, MB

Personally I would consider that incident to be more of an internal cluster-F than outright fraud. Phoenicia may have been told one thing, HSA decided another and it is what it is. A marketing gimmick gone wrong. I think the Anejados fiasco is worse frankly. 

This Cohiba 55th issue is concerning because it introduces the possibility of an external factor and total fraud. On a release as high-profile and expensive as this it is totally unacceptable and reasonable to ask these questions. Cuba isn't held to account when they botch a box of BPC. Fine, no one cares. But they have to be expected to be held to account on something like this. An explanation or statement is the least they could do. One would think Phoenicia at least would want to dispel any rumblings of their exclusive release being fake...but what do I know.

[Corylax18]

4 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Personally I would consider that incident to be more of an internal cluster-F than outright fraud. Phoenicia may have been told one thing, HSA decided another and it is what it is. A marketing gimmick gone wrong

That explanation might have worked, maybe, if they hadn't woven some ridiculous story about cigars being trucked all over Havana to try and cover their tracks. They lied, they tried to cover their tracks with more lies. Blaming HSA would have been the easiest way out, especially if that's what had actually happened. 

Where there is smoke, there is fire. This is At Least 3 times now Phoenician has been at the source of A Lot of smoke. I'm not buying a pack of Trini Shorts from them with your money at this point, let alone my own. 

 Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice (or three times now) shame on me. 

The whole "nobody involved knows their ass from their elbow" excuse just isn't good enough at the prices they're charging for these things.

I think its more than clear that at this point nobody involved has nearly the knowledge level or technical acumen to execute at this level, so why anybody would believe a word out of their mouth is beyond me.  

[Bigkahuna]

32 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Cuba isn't held to account when they botch a box of BPC. Fine, no one cares. But they have to be expected to be held to account on something like this.

This is to Habanos the equivalent of a platinum Daytona or a Veyron or a Zegna Su Misura. Unfortunately they are also a broke third world county. I’m not aware of any other 3rd world country that has as recognized and respected expensive product. This only furthers to reinforce the rumblings of regime change. They simply aren’t capable of producing an Uber level product without flaws. When you see the empty boxes of behike staked on a rotting pallet in the factories it’s mind blowing.  Anywhere else they be under lock and key and handled with white gloves. 
 

You hit the nail on the head. This isn’t an entry level product. It’s the single most expensive production cigar made by Cohiba. 

[NSXCIGAR]

38 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

That explanation might have worked, maybe, if they hadn't woven some ridiculous story about cigars being trucked all over Havana to try and cover their tracks. They lied, they tried to cover their tracks with more lies. Blaming HSA would have been the easiest way out, especially if that's what had actually happened. 

I think we're talking about two different things. Totally agree, HSA and Phoenicia have been perpetrators and participants in funny business. Incompetence and lies do not mean fake however. Do we consider Anejados "fake" even though we know the entire story is a steaming pile of manure? 

The issue here is whether these Cohiba 55th 5-boxes are even coming from HSA/Phoenicia.

9 minutes ago, Bigkahuna said:

They simply aren’t capable of producing an Uber level product without flaws.

I don't expect them to. I do expect that when such a glaring mistake is made they acknowledge it and make a statement. If they don't they can't blame people for believing their products may be fake and tainting their reputation. Phoenicia is just as responsible for this issue as HSA in this particular case. Phoenicia has already been caught playing fast and loose in the past (whether or not it was their fault, per se, they were a party to it) and not addressing this Cohiba 55th issue is another hit to their reputation. 

[Carrie Nation]

44 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

That explanation might have worked, maybe, if they hadn't woven some ridiculous story about cigars being trucked all over Havana to try and cover their tracks. They lied, they tried to cover their tracks with more lies. Blaming HSA would have been the easiest way out, especially if that's what had actually happened. 

Where there is smoke, there is fire. This is At Least 3 times now Phoenician has been at the source of A Lot of smoke. I'm not buying a pack of Trini Shorts from them with your money at this point, let alone my own. 

 Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice (or three times now) shame on you. 

The whole "nobody involved knows their ass from their elbow" excuse just isn't good enough at the prices they're charging for these things.

I think its more than clear that at this point nobody involved has nearly the knowledge level or technical acumen to execute at this level, so why anybody would believe a word out of their mouth is beyond me.  

Premier bands were used for cigars packed in Premier boxes, which have only 5 cigars and were distributed exclusively in Phoenicia's territories. It's special packaging just for Phoenicia eg. Beirut duty-free, Dubai, etc. Most of the Premier boxes are stamped UAO 21 from September all the way to November. That's what's in the market. That's what's been in the market since the Premiers were released. Do you understand now? More boxes will appear and you'll see what I mean if you don't want to take my word for it. Or CA's word for it. Or Phoenicia's word for it. If you want to think it's one big conspiracy, then feel free. 

[Bigkahuna]

@Carrie Nation Do you personally have any of these ? Your insistence that they are legitimate points heavily to the thought you have one and are desperately trying to talk yourself into believing it. If not then I’m wrong but it seems odd that you insist they are legit unless you own them. 

[El Presidente]

12 minutes ago, Bigkahuna said:

 Your insistence that they are legitimate points heavily to the thought you have one and are desperately trying to talk yourself into believing it. 

That is a stretch. 

He just may have better information. 

There is nothing wrong however asking the questions re box codes and bands.  Let's face it. They look to have butchered the release to date by being drop dead incompetient/lazy. 

[SeacoastFirewood]

As someone who has recently (since 2018) gotten into Cubans, I would say that the potential of getting a fake Cohiba is so high, they are not worth perusing. Perhaps this will help lower the price point. I bought a 3 pack of CoRo form a recent 24:24 and had a friend who lives in London tell me they were fake. I trust FOH and the team, but after this post it makes one think. If CA if getting duped then it’s only a matter of time the problem spreads- greed knows no limits. Ultimately, this is detrimental to brand loyalty. From now on I will stick with Monte and Partagas and see how things progress. Cohiba no longer interests me given the price and risk…

[Nevrknow]

20 hours ago, Bijan said:

Until they put 1% of the effort into the quality of the cigars that they put into the bands and boxes anyone who actually smokes the cigars will know pretty quick their money went down the drain.

And anyone who can't tell any difference... Well it's a zen riddle whether they're any worse off.

The main risks are buying Siglo II and they would reband PLPC. Or buy CoRo and they reband PSD4. Unclear any of us could tell that difference reliably or at least with 100% confidence. I mean as a thought exercise we all think we can most of the time. But the blind contests say otherwise.

We did pretty good on those no? 😁

[Cigar Salute]

3 hours ago, Carrie Nation said:

lThe only "oops" was a few non-Premier bands. The box codes are legit. Like I said, these exact stamps have been showing up in duty-free for awhile. Time to to put away the pitchforks, nooses, and torches.

Hey if I was wrong then I'm willing to eat humble pie on it.  But, I'm not quite ready to put my pitchfork away just yet. This is still beyond unacceptable in my opinion.  Using a relatively recently retired factory code like this, especially on a obnoxiously expensive release like this, is terribly irresponsible, and sets a disgusting precedent.  I hope these boxes have the errors fixed at the very least, accompanied by both Phoenicia and HSA doing a press release acknowledging the situation.  If they're gonna raise prices the way they have, then it's time people stop letting them slide on stuff like this.  This isn't an oops.  It's manna from counterfeit heaven.  Every trash pail selling TUA July 2018 CoRo in FB groups now has their get out of jail free card.  

 

[El Presidente]

5 hours ago, SeacoastFirewood said:

 I bought a 3 pack of CoRo from a recent 24:24 and had a friend who lives in London tell me they were fake. I

...your friend is an idiot ....😁

[Fugu]

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

This Cohiba 55th issue is concerning because it introduces the possibility of an external factor and total fraud. On a release as high-profile and expensive as this it is totally unacceptable and reasonable to ask these questions. Cuba isn't held to account when they botch a box of BPC. Fine, no one cares. But they have to be expected to be held to account on something like this. An explanation or statement is the least they could do. One would think Phoenicia at least would want to dispel any rumblings of their exclusive release being fake...but what do I know.

Concur, absolutely. Such an alleged “glitch” in such an upper-tier, premier “premier” release calls for an explanation. A written statement. Either by Habanos or/and Phoenicia. Or call that rubbish back.

Apart from the question of it being legit or not - announcing such a special extra (numbered) pre-run release with all fanfares (see here) and then having the wrong band been put on them, is not simply a negligible or even an excusable glitch. I for one would feel heavily duped if I wanted to show-off at IG. 😂

Then, in addition, and this weighs heavily, this is all about trust and traceability. And the dearer the release the more the need for it of course! You (read HSA) cannot come up with a constant flow of meticulous anti-counterfeit measures just to then say, oh it’s all just optional. That’s undermining your own demands and standards. Just doesn’t work that way. And should that be the new standards set by the current JV partner, then good night Vienna / Habano!

Now, beginning to allow importers to use pure fantasy box codes (should HSA turn out to have done that), means they are eventually lost.

In fact, were those indeed not be fakes it’s all the worse.

[Tstew75]

This is all pretty hard to stomach. What a friggin' hack job.

[Puros Y Vino]

I am not in the market for these.  Having read through all the previous posts, I really can't comment on the veracity of the pictured cigars or the theories around why they may be just "errors" vs chicanery(on whose part I am unsure of). 

What this does tell me is that Habanos and/or Phoenicia are seriously dropping the ball. Especially since they announced the price hikes, etc.  They are really losing face here with this debacle. If CA's box does turn out to be fake, that is going to be a nightmare for anyone who still is all-in on the new Cohiba 55's and pricing. 

That they cannot execute on a simple task such as this is unforgiveble.  A task they have done thousands of times before, with some errors here and there mind you, then they are shooting themselves in the feet.  Having CA hit with fakes for such a prestigious cigar can hit them hard.  Their raison d'etre is media.  And they can wield it against Habanos most unfavorably.  If this box is fake, CA can/will take a royal dump on them.  That could potentially halt sales or at least slow them down significantly and potentially lean pricing downward from where they want it.  Boxes will sit on shelves because buyers may not trust the product even if they trust their vendors.  At the end of the day, "Cuba being Cuba" should not fly as an excuse with such a product. 

Would Ferrari customers accept a rebadged Fiat engine in their new cars?  Could Rolex get away with mechanisms made in the Isle of Tonga, rebranded as Swiss made? 

In my mind, even if I see these in the wild, from a legit vendor, even if I had the extra cash around, I'd pass on them easily.  The seed of doubt in my mind is planted.   I personally would not be able to contend with the nagging notion that I may have been duped.  Consumers get duped enough in all industries.  To get duped on such a high end, pricey product is criminal IMO. 

Between Habanos and Phoencia, someone needs to come out and make a statement on this and do some reassuring with some "proof" to back it up. 

[NSXCIGAR]

2 hours ago, SeacoastFirewood said:

I trust FOH and the team, but after this post it makes one think.

In the world of CCs there are a handful of trusted vendors. We do not use the term "trusted" lightly. They are easy to find with some digging and asking. You will never have a problem buying from a trusted vendor. Almost all have been active for over 20 years--no small feat in this business. There are a thousand "other" vendors with rare products and low prices. Your choice. 

The issue with these Cohiba 55th is that we have no idea where they're coming from. I've heard the term "in the market" but that means nothing. I want to know what vendor. Even a "legitimate" vendor may not be getting these directly from Phoenicia. You need a trusted vendor who's stock is sourced directly like Beirut DF. 

When Rob comes across Siglo VI with 9999999999 serials we know it's genuine because his product comes directly from PCC and he fully discloses the issue. In fact he wouldn't sell cigars like that--I believe he sent them back to PCC. Unfortunately there aren't many trusted vendors in the Phoenicia region. Someone trusted there (there are several YouTubers and LCDHs) that could possibly shed some light on this Cohiba 55th issue. I wish they would. 

[helix]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

In fact, were those indeed not be fakes it’s all the worse.

Perfidiousness .

[Bijan]

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Unfortunately there aren't many trusted vendors in the Phoenicia region. Someone trusted there (there are several YouTubers and LCDHs) that could possibly shed some light on this Cohiba 55th issue. I wish they would. 

I got one... And he has them in stock. Let me ask.

 

3 hours ago, Puros Y Vino said:

Would Ferrari customers accept a rebadged Fiat engine in their new cars?  Could Rolex get away with mechanisms made in the Isle of Tonga, rebranded as Swiss made? 

Reminds me of this scene:

Where Gene Hackman says that cigars are more expensive than drugs.

Guess the supply chain issues are worse too. 

[Edicion]

Some of the insights above and the situation points to a repackaging/poor manufacturing issue more that anything illicit taking place and if that's really the case, the issue is that whomever is responsible for putting out boxes like this are riding the fact that anything can be blamed on poor QC/inconsistencies.

So if the box is real, it is making things worse for future releases and the clients who want to purchase premium cigars as the expectation is that anything can be real/true but may be flawed / inconsistent / not following processes like date-factory codes which will pave way for fakes to enter the market with little to no resistance and almost acceptance later.

What's worse, is that the box up for discussion is a premium brand, of a very exclusive release that will have many eyes on it, and it sets a dangerous precedent that even the most rare and priced releases can be questioned. The proof is this discussion which clearly divides experienced members of CC cigars.

They should never have released the box looking this way, but maybe they were in a hurry to seize the opportunity and make huge profits right after the launch and social media blasting of the latest Cohiba event.

[Bijan]

9 minutes ago, Edicion said:

They should never have released the box looking this way, but maybe they were in a hurry to seize the opportunity and make huge profits right after the launch and social media blasting of the latest Cohiba event.

Cuba is in a dumpster fire situation. A lot of countries in Phoenicia's region are not in great shape and also borderline dumpster fire.

There's a global cigar draught where the vendor I mentioned above who has these in stock says sold out for Monte open juniors (where you couldn't get rid of the original release 2010 boxes up until last year), and sold out on Hoyo Epi 2 (when I got a 50-cab of Hoyo DC from him last year)...

And Habanos didn't have much QC before all this.

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, Edicion said:

So if the box is real, it is making things worse for future releases

The fact that Phoenicia would allow these out the door like that is very concerning, I agree. Totally irresponsible and reckless. They taint both their reputation and HSA's reputation. 

And for Savona to blow it off as a factory error is also totally irresponsible. He doesn't know that. You'd expect a little more concern about it. As if there's zero possibility these are fake. The first cigar in 25 years to have an odd code font and it's this super premium high profile cigar? Someone like Savona has the connections to ask Phoenicia directly for a comment and do some actual journalism for your publication. These concerns are absolutely warranted. 

 

1 hour ago, Bijan said:

Cuba is in a dumpster fire situation. A lot of countries in Phoenicia's region are not in great shape and also borderline dumpster fire.

Yes but these are coming straight from Phoenicia. We know Phoenicia got raw sticks since the "premier" wasn't on the 2-packs and we have at least one 5-box with commingled sticks. Wouldn't be a stretch to think these boxes did not get shipped intact from Cuba. 

My point is that I think Phoenicia is 100% to blame for this. 

[Fugu]

38 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

and do some actual journalism for your publication.

This!!

[Edicion]

37 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

The fact that Phoenicia would allow these out the door like that is very concerning, I agree. Totally irresponsible and reckless. They taint both their reputation and HSA's reputation. 

And for Savona to blow it off as a factory error is also totally irresponsible. He doesn't know that. You'd expect a little more concern about it. As if there's zero possibility these are fake. The first cigar in 25 years to have an odd code font and it's this super premium high profile cigar? Someone like Savona has the connections to ask Phoenicia directly for a comment and do some actual journalism for your publication. These concerns are absolutely warranted. 

I completely agree that is my point too.

I did not bring up the CA review because I "presume" that after he opened the box, he immediately reached out to his connections who sent them the box, got reassurances in an email to be able to cover his back and justify at least in case there's a discussion going on about authenticity/discrepancies and then posted the video. I sincerely hope it's not the other way around.

[Cigar Salute]

1 hour ago, Edicion said:

I completely agree that is my point too.

I did not bring up the CA review because I "presume" that after he opened the box, he immediately reached out to his connections who sent them the box, got reassurances in an email to be able to cover his back and justify at least in case there's a discussion going on about authenticity/discrepancies and then posted the video. I sincerely hope it's not the other way around.

If it was as you say you hope it is, I have to believe that DS would have mentioned this in his video.  These guys almost always comment on presentation & packaging, and I highly doubt he'd consciously invite his viewership to call his CC chops into question.  Remember, these are the same people that erroneously stated that BHK bands have repeating text in the top and bottom gold strips that flank the band in their Cohiba authentication checklist a few years ago.  You know how many times I've seen people get confused by that?   And they STILL have not rectified that error as of today.  No one is perfect, but THAT'S bad!  

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, Edicion said:

I completely agree that is my point too.

I did not bring up the CA review because I "presume" that after he opened the box, he immediately reached out to his connections who sent them the box, got reassurances in an email to be able to cover his back and justify at least in case there's a discussion going on about authenticity/discrepancies and then posted the video. I sincerely hope it's not the other way around.

Calling this a simple "factory error" doesn't suffice here. Being so quick to close the case tells me he doesn't fully understand or appreciate the implications of that code sticker on these cigars. Anyone knowledgeable in CCs will tell you that it's a serious problem that needs thorough explanation. The fact that he portrays this as some kind of minor snafu by absentminded 19 year old Jose in the factory tells me he hasn't dug into it enough because he isn't aware of the gravity of the situation. 

The best case scenario at this point is that a trusted party in the Phoenicia region confirms they're getting these directly from Phoenicia like that. I also find it hard to believe vendors are accepting these boxes without asking questions. I would be very wary of sending these out to my customers this way. I wouldn't want to be dealing with returns from spooked buyers or not selling them in my B & M once they see the stickers. 

Do we have any doubt whatsoever that if Rob got these like this from PCC there wouldn't be answers demanded immediately? Does anyone think he would sell these without getting those answers? 

[Bijan]

4 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Do we have any doubt whatsoever that if Rob got these like this from PCC there wouldn't be answers demanded immediately? Does anyone think he would sell these without getting those answers? 

With Rob I have no doubts.

This is how I see this going down in the region: