You have to love some Unions.

[99call]

13 hours ago, Fuzz said:

In 1st world countries where fair work and employees rights are legislated, unions are an anachronism

It depends. Here in the UK the government is trying to dissolve and regress peoples rights/working conditions, fire rehire, compulsory redundancy, stagnant wages for a decade, below inflation pay etc, 

Privatisation has failed miserably here in the UK, so much so, that dyed in the wool,  true blue tories are currently polling favourably for re-nationalising Rail, Power, Water, etc etc. Something which I thought I'd never live to see.

To me the current rise of the unions is a response to out of control greed of the shareholders, theft from the public purse, demoralising of public institutions.  I can only speak for the UK, but I think the Unions are awesome, and the public response here is largely positive. 

I do however agree with others, that if it becomes a weapon to hold society to ransom for out and out luxuries.....then yes that's bullshit.   Thats rarely ever the case hear though, usually it's just a made up attack line from one of Ruperts Murdochs rags     

[Chibearsv]

4 hours ago, therealrsr said:

Truer words were never spoken, they can't even fix it with the legal pot tax revenue windfall.

Or the Lotto, or the tollways, or the gambling bill....there's always another solution to balance the budget, and by balance, I mean raise the deficit.  That's the local definition of a balanced budget - spend much more than you can possibly earn.  Cronies stay paid and voters keep voting these crooks in.

[westg]

For real ? Had a bit of laugh at all of them . The last one 🍰. In their defence they will argue they did use the word options. So they want to be paid to have the option to take a healthy meal to work . They are actually cheaper! And they can do that themselves. What a bunch of brain dead losers . 

[Fuzz]

5 hours ago, 99call said:

It depends. Here in the UK the government is trying to dissolve and regress peoples rights/working conditions, fire rehire, compulsory redundancy, stagnant wages for a decade, below inflation pay etc, 

Privatisation has failed miserably here in the UK, so much so, that dyed in the wool,  true blue tories are currently polling favourably for re-nationalising Rail, Power, Water, etc etc. Something which I thought I'd never live to see.

To me the current rise of the unions is a response to out of control greed of the shareholders, theft from the public purse, demoralising of public institutions.  I can only speak for the UK, but I think the Unions are awesome, and the public response here is largely positive. 

I do however agree with others, that if it becomes a weapon to hold society to ransom for out and out luxuries.....then yes that's bullshit.   Thats rarely ever the case hear though, usually it's just a made up attack line from one of Ruperts Murdochs rags     

All I will say is, do not let those unions become what they have become here. Just another organised crime group holding our country to ransom. The level of corruption is astounding.

[Bijan]

On 9/5/2022 at 7:02 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

Unions are one thing. Public sector unions are another. Wasn't the point of unions to fight against the big bad robber baron employers? No such thing in the public sector. It's much more politically expedient to just grant the union their demands. The bills don't come due until they're long out of office. 

At the very least public sector unions shouldn't be allowed to strike like police unions are prevented from doing. 

The reason why there are so many public sector unions and so few private sector unions is "monopsony". (the opposite of a monopoly, in other words there is one employer of public sector employees, the government)

Basically most people these days don't bother forming a union because everyone is changing jobs all the time and you'd be leaving in a few years anyways and no one spends their whole career with one employer to build seniority or to push for long term pay rises.

If you don't like the conditions, you just move to another job.

Except public sector employees. They're stuck with one employer (if they don't leave for the private sector, which is generally a different work environment entirely), and so that's the motivation. In fact if you look at it here, they get pushed around by the government, which legislates ends to their strikes, which they'd be much more reluctant to do for a private employer. Rather than the government being willing to give in to the demands of teachers or nurses or whatever.

(And yeah private sector employers can try to conspire to keep wages low, but people don't even stay in the same city, state or even country, so even that isn't happening.)

[99call]

6 hours ago, Fuzz said:

All I will say is, do not let those unions become what they have become here. Just another organised crime group holding our country to ransom. The level of corruption is astounding.

I sympathise with you guys and the situation in Aussie outlined by Rob, but I would add that if we chart the history of the Unions internationally, and the idea of 'astounding corruption' I would suggest that how some of them operate, compared to the corruption of rogue employers, it would be a drop in the ocean.   

I massively value people that get into business for the right reasons, a passion to create something, and a profit in line with their own level of ingenuity, hard work, dedication. and to offer decent employment to others based on that same principle, although obviously a smaller bite of that apple. However within the last decade (in the UK at least,) has seen to a disturbing rise of slave labour, people having their passports taken off them, a bonfire of regulations. etc.        In conclusion I would say that you are right to be pissed off with some specific unions that may have gotten out of control, and become corrupt.............but I would also ask, are you similarly pissed off at the much larger problem of out of control corrupt employers that treat people like shit?      The level of outrage we see in society between these two groups (rogue unions & rogue employers) doesn't seem to fairly reflect the regularity/severity of their wrong doing. 

[El Presidente]

46 minutes ago, 99call said:

but I would also ask, are you similarly pissed off at the much larger problem of out of control corrupt employers that treat people like shit?      

That is a little insulting. Of course. Pricks are pricks. 

"Much Larger problem"  Really?  Where are the numbers? Anecdotal?  In the UK? Certainly not here. 

Most of my mates are employers. Some large,some small. All are decent people who pay fairly and treat their employees with respect.  That is the majority of private employers. There are always exceptions but rules are strict, safeguards in place, employees only need to pick up the phone to the Fair Work Commission and the employer is under investigation. It is a competitive world and in the private sector you had better hold a decent standard of emloyer/emlpoyee interaction or you will not survive long. From an employee perspective you can leave. Good employees are gold. Shitty employees are poison and free to go. 

The unions that I have listed are pariahs. They control all that occurs in complete industries. The MUA is nation wide. They are such a criminal organisation that they dictate to the employer who can and can't be hired + the rate at which they will be hired. Construction unions same.  

It went from member representation to a mafia in 20 years. 

 

 

[99call]

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

That is a little insulting. Of course. Pricks are pricks. 

"Much Larger problem"  Really?  Where are the numbers? Anecdotal?  In the UK? Certainly not here. 

I do think the situation in Aus and the UK are vastly different, and as I've already stated, the I do think it's wrong if Unions ever stray into the holding systems hostage for 'luxuries' as opposed to core decent working rights.    I think we are on the same hymn sheet. 

I've worked in Australia,  New Zealand and the UK and the impression I got is that there was a much greater degree of social mobility in Aus & Nz, there was a genuine sense of hard work will lead somewhere and gain respect/greater pay.  There was also a much greater sense that people were woking to live, as opposed to living to work. 

In the UK is seems to me that there is a much greater competition for jobs than in the Aus & NZ, maybe that allows lesser pay, possibility of promotion etc.  The relationship between employee and employer in Australia seems to be a great deal fairer and positive because they need each other in a much more balanced dynamic. 

It's interesting looking back in history.  Theres is an old mill town near Bradford in the UK called Saltaire.  Titus Salt was a revolutionary mill owner who went out of his way to build a healthy, positive working environment for his workers. all radical measures, like building them quality housing next to the mill, libraries, schoolhouses parks, public baths. Ventilation in the mills, with huge expensive windows to add sunlight and warm to the working conditions.  He even installed machinery as great expense, to cut pollution to the workers town.    Titus Salt seemed to be one of the finest Victorian Philanthropists, and credit to him............but also in the end.....he needed those workers,  he needed them to live next to the mill, and he set about creating a situation that would make them want to be there. ..................sadly however......no boozers! he was part of the temperance movement.....what a lousy bastard.

For me there should be a level of respect that goes both ways, as long as employer and employee live up to their ends of the bargain, there should be no need for Unions.   Sadly thats not the case in the UK. 

[cnov]

We're really suffering a huge disparity between wages and the cost of living in the UK, even before the current issues around energy costs, wages just haven't kept pace at all. Profits have never faltered, but wages are rock steady.

There are business' in my sector that are still looking to pay trainees the same wage I started on over 15 years ago, and they have the nerve to say that "the youth of today aren't interested in getting out of bed for £18k" on LinkedIn. I think some business owners are a bit far removed from living on a normal wage and believe that minimum wage is enough. There's a larger company in our sector (medium in the the grand scheme of things) that had their annual meeting last year and advised their team of supremely low paid and highly skilled staff that they had just had their best quarter, point two on the agenda, no bonuses this year, they are utterly clueless.

We're only a very small company of 4 people, but we are absolutely nothing without the employees who actually do a lot of the work. Neither party should be holding the other to ransom and it should be a mutually beneficial relationship.

I think that anyone blindly union bashing is probably blissfully unaware of the shitty condition some people have to work under.

While I don't agree with all of his politics, Mick Lynch of the RMT union in the UK is a great man to listen to who definitely has not only the people on their unions best interest at heart, but every UK worker. He makes mincemeat of terrible interviewers and politicians without a clue on a regular basis.