Where did it all go wrong for Trinidad?

[Bijan]

10 hours ago, Fsonicsmith said:

My combined CC knowledge and CC experience is maybe 2% of our host and many here, but my 2 sense with many boxes of Cohiba and Trinny in my Avallo humi is that the Trinnies are more consistent. Others will almost certainly disagree. 

I agree. Trinidad to me is the most consistent Marca. Habanos pulled off quite a feat considering their level of quality control overall (Cohiba included, even El Laguito Cohiba included).

18 minutes ago, JohnS said:

Basically, in a nutshell, Habanos S.A have been reactionary and lost sense of their objectivity because they entered into a long-term legal dispute with the Trinidad Family over this marca and in doing that, they've maintained a position that Trinidad must be seen as practically equal to Cohiba as a premium marca. In my opinion, this understanding goes a long way to explain the history of the Trinidad brand over the last twenty years.

They were doing a real bad job at this (too few vitolas, too few premium vitolas, even fewer in now popular RGs) until they came out with the new releases a few years ago and really round out the Marca.

[Ford2112]

Trinidad has all these goofy sizes,and you can hardly find the Corona Claro. The pricing now sucks. That's where they went wrong. 

[Corylax18]

23 minutes ago, Ford2112 said:

Trinidad has all these goofy sizes,and you can hardly find the Corona Claro. The pricing now sucks. That's where they went wrong. 

Corona's Claro are QdO, but I still understand your point and agree with it regarding that brand.

What a wonderful "revitalization" that one was. Bring out two watered down, spur of the moment, uninspired sizes so that you can effectively cut the single vitola that kept the Marca alive for 2 or 3 decades. Its like they're intentionally trying to do a bad job. 

[El Presidente]

14 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

cut the single vitola that kept the Marca alive for 2 or 3 decades. 

The QD Corona?

I love romantics!

The reason you could always find aged QD Corona at discount is because no one bought them outside of purists/aficionados/old timers. 

They were yet another no profit cigar in a portfolio full of them. 

To their credit (HSA) they didn't cut them at the relaunch. They should have. 

....and I am an unabashed lover of the QDC. 

 

[Ford2112]

29 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

Corona's Claro are QdO, but I still understand your point and agree with it regarding that brand.

What a wonderful "revitalization" that one was. Bring out two watered down, spur of the moment, uninspired sizes so that you can effectively cut the single vitola that kept the Marca alive for 2 or 3 decades. Its like they're intentionally trying to do a bad job. 

LOL I was ranting on 2 marques in one! QDO is another one!

[Corylax18]

26 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

The QD Corona?

I love romantics!

The reason you could always find aged QD Corona at discount is because no one bought them outside of purists/aficionados/old timers. 

They were yet another no profit cigar in a portfolio full of them. 

To their credit (HSA) they didn't cut them at the relaunch. They should have. 

....and I am an unabashed lover of the QDC. 

 

I bought them. 😁 

I cant remember the last time I saw a Coronas Claro. I know there where a few cursory runs after the "relaunch" but I haven't seen a box in what seems like 2 years now.

So its hard not to agree that they should have cut it. But at that point, why keep the "brand"? What is there to be gained, or even retained at that point? There is nothing left of QdO. Why hang on to a "brand" that sold so poorly it was completely gutted? Why not just name the new cigars Ultra #1 Super Luck 888 Double Gold Robusto Supremo and Toro Grande? If no one cared about QdO before, are there really that many people that do now? 

[Carrie Nation]

1 hour ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

are we the only country that bases our taxes on the retail price? So now that the retail price is up 2x, 3x, or more, our tax has doubled, tripled, or more. For the places that based their taxes on things like weight, I get that this didn't make much (or any difference). But I can't imagine that Canada is the "only" country in the world that now charges 3x (or more) in taxes on the NEW price. 

Only those who know what's been going on internally at Habanos for the last 25 years. 

[El Presidente]

1 minute ago, Corylax18 said:

I bought them. 😁 

I cant remember the last time I saw a Coronas Claro. I know there where a few cursory runs after the "relaunch" but I haven't seen a box in what seems like 2 years now.

So its hard not to agree that they should have cut it. But at that point, why keep the "brand"? What is there to be gained, or even retained at that point? There is nothing left of QdO. Why hang on to a "brand" that sold so poorly it was completely gutted? Why not just name the new cigars Ultra #1 Super Luck 888 Double Gold Robusto Supremo and Toro Grande? If no one cared about QdO before, are there really that many people that do now? 

My assumption is that part of maintaining a trademark is that it has to be in the market. I suspect that is why Diplomatico No 2/ LGC4/ SP Beli  exist.There is still serious value in those Marques. 

....and I bought them as well 

[Bijan]

46 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

The reason you could always find aged QD Corona at discount is because no one bought them outside of purists/aficionados/old timers. 

They were yet another no profit cigar in a portfolio full of them. 

To their credit (HSA) they didn't cut them at the relaunch. They should have. 

....and I am an unabashed lover of the QDC. 

Seems they've found an acceptable formual with these cigars, cut production drastically and only make a batch every other year or so. (I think you often suggested such an idea for bringing back discontinued cigars).

Anyone who's been looking for LGC MdO4, Monte Especiales, or QDC (among a few others), knows that they're as rare as hen's teeth these past few years, and not because they suddenly became more popular.

[Corylax18]

1 minute ago, El Presidente said:

There is still serious value in those Marques.

Not valuable enough to really care about, or to affect people's buying decisions apparently. I'm guessing the new QdO are selling just fine, but that Marque would have been on the above list as well. How long will this playbook keep working though. Is there really desire in the market for 6 more short/fat robustos? 

[El Presidente]

1 minute ago, Corylax18 said:

Not valuable enough to really care about, or to affect people's buying decisions apparently. I'm guessing the new QdO are selling just fine, but that Marque would have been on the above list as well. How long will this playbook keep working though. Is there really desire in the market for 6 more short/fat robustos? 

The QD 50 and 54 have been hits particularly in Spain. Who knows where that goes with the new pricing. 

Diplomatico/Sancho Panza/La Gloria Cubana. They are vintage pieces on a chess board with US equivalents. They don't want to lose the global (except US) rights to those marques.  In the years to come I can see them coming back. It may be a whole different operating/marketing model. 

As for your last point.  It never ceases to suprise me that short fat Robusto &  fatter longer Robusto's sell. They are the low hanging fruit of the cigar manufacturing world right now. 

[havanaclub]

12 hours ago, chris12381 said:

I went back and looked at earlier pricing.  From 2001 - 2003 Fundadores were listed at $14.00 each and a box price of 336.00.  Also listed at $13.50 each in 50 count box at $675.00. 
https://web.archive.org/web/20020402111232/http://www.geocities.com:80/freddycigar/price.htm
It does appear they received a significant price adjustment downward which made them more affordable.  I have a big gap in my pricing history (and travel) between 2004 and 2013 "on island" so I don't know when that adjustment occured.      

 

I can show you my fundi 2017 box from Cuba. 261 CUC. Sticker still intact I believe.

 

8 hours ago, Hammer Smokin said:

are we the only country that bases our taxes on the retail price? So now that the retail price is up 2x, 3x, or more, our tax has doubled, tripled, or more. For the places that based their taxes on things like weight, I get that this didn't make much (or any difference). But I can't imagine that Canada is the "only" country in the world that now charges 3x (or more) in taxes on the NEW price. 

They don’t care, they want them band.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NSXCIGAR]

3 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

What a wonderful "revitalization" that one was. Bring out two watered down, spur of the moment, uninspired sizes so that you can effectively cut the single vitola that kept the Marca alive for 2 or 3 decades. Its like they're intentionally trying to do a bad job. 

I think QdO was dead as a doornail on the eve of the revamp. More people probably bought the Imperiales than the Coronas. Through 2002 the Gran Coronas were also a top seller for the brand. 

The 50 and 54 have been a massive success and a 52 is coming. The Coronas are staying for now which is a huge win. I expected them to be cut. They weren't. 

The difference between Trini and QdO is that they're not positioning QdO as a halo brand. If they had wanted to do that with Trini in 2004 I think the Reyes and Coloniales were a mistake. I also don't know how the small Cohibas survive at the current pricing.

[Fugu]

7 hours ago, El Presidente said:

The QD Corona?

I love romantics!

The reason you could always find aged QD Corona at discount is because no one bought them outside of purists/aficionados/old timers.

Before relaunch, Quai d’Orsay had been positioned as a “local brand”. Historically, it had started out as a French-only brand. It always was a “connoisseur’s” brand, quite as you say. Sales consequently were low, as it wasn’t a widely popularised marca. But that wasn’t the fault of the Coronas Claro (the same could be said about the other formats, that were even less “popular”). It was a “fault” (perhaps) of a critical market positioning. Up until the early 2000s the brand wasn’t even available much outside of Europe, and not widely distributed outside the French market. (for a certain period it hadn’t even been available in certain European countries due to a trademark litigation...)

Today - sales of the QdOCC are seemingly low, have to be low, because the format is not available (well the whole brand is HTF). Simple as that. The blend is great, the format still is great and versatile (at least to the non-show-offs).

[Puros Y Vino]

16 hours ago, El Presidente said:

The QD Corona?

I love romantics!

The reason you could always find aged QD Corona at discount is because no one bought them outside of purists/aficionados/old timers. 

They were yet another no profit cigar in a portfolio full of them. 

To their credit (HSA) they didn't cut them at the relaunch. They should have. 

....and I am an unabashed lover of the QDC. 

 

I remember when you were clearing them out in sales circa 2011. Three boxes for a really low price. I took advantage of that quick. 😁

[RDB]

I was very happy purchasing Coloniales at the pre-hike price. It annoyed me that I couldn’t find Fundies.

I can just about imagine, on a special occasion, paying up at the new prices for Fundies. Nothing else.

Here is tonight’s smoke: a crappy, hot, wind-tunnel Vigia from RAG MAR 19. Pitched soon after this image was taken:

 

[HarveyBoulevard]

7 hours ago, RDB said:

I was very happy purchasing Coloniales at the pre-hike price. It annoyed me that I couldn’t find Fundies.

I can just about imagine, on a special occasion, paying up at the new prices for Fundies. Nothing else.

Here is tonight’s smoke: a crappy, hot, wind-tunnel Vigia from RAG MAR 19. Pitched soon after this image was taken:

But at least your a baller and have some great instasnapgramchat street cred...

I'm having a Topes tonight, wish me luck!!

[NSXCIGAR]

7 hours ago, RDB said:

was very happy purchasing Coloniales at the pre-hike price.

And now they're $966 in Cuba. Laughable. Absolutely laughable.

[SCgarman]

7 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

And now they're $966 in Cuba. Laughable. Absolutely laughable.

"Dust collectors!"

[BrightonCorgi]

I have a 5 pack of Fundadores I'll trade for a car or yacht.  Please PM 😀

[Rhinoww]

Posted without commentary. Well much 😂

A June 20 box of coloniales just sold on BR for $600. 
 

What’s the list on a new box these days?  

[HarveyBoulevard]

I did my bi-annual coolidor check. I’m not sure if Trinidad has a problem or if I do. That little gremlin in the bottom left corner says I have too many…she suggested donating some.

I didn’t want to tell her 3 more boxes are en route.

[SCgarman]

30 minutes ago, HarveyBoulevard said:

I did my bi-annual coolidor check. I’m not sure if Trinidad has a problem or if I do. That little gremlin in the bottom left corner says I have too many…she suggested donating some.

I didn’t want to tell her 3 more boxes are en route.

She's thinking there's four years at an ivy league university right there!

[GotYaGoat]

31 minutes ago, HarveyBoulevard said:

I did my bi-annual coolidor check. I’m not sure if Trinidad has a problem or if I do. That little gremlin in the bottom left corner says I have too many…she suggested donating some.

I didn’t want to tell her 3 more boxes are en route.

Oh, you can't tell me it's not worth tryin' for
I can't help it, there's nothin' I want more
Yeah, I would fight for you
I'd lie for you
Walk the wire for you
Yeah, I'd die for you

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, Rhinoww said:

What’s the list on a new box these days?

Haven't seen any at retail yet but Cuba price is $966. Reyes price is $667 and if we use that as a very loose guide I'm seeing those at retail in the high $300s at the moment or about 55% of the Cuba price. Coloniales are a bit more desirable and scarce to let's say ~60% Cuba price or about $600-650, so right in line with those BR prices. 

I bought a box for $221 in July 21.