Where did it all go wrong for Trinidad?

[Edicion]

The Trinidads must have been seen as the second best premium brand after Cohiba to be relaunched as the next cash cow for HSA. I think of it as Rolex and Tudor.

But there's still room for another premium brand to be bumped up. 

Criteria I would look for is good reputation, air of mystique, exclusivity, history (why it's is there in the first place), and what the current "branding" looks like.

With this in mind I think the next brand to be bumped up is Quai D'Orsay in 2-3 years with the gold band.

Could be Diplomaticos too that is enjoying a hiatus basically.

[Fugu]

35 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

You may be giving them a lot of credit .....

True. But that’s what it does in effect. 🍋

[Akela3rd]

Elephant in the room
... the name's always been an issue in that it's a Cuban cigar named after a different country. It's a hard sell to a new market - buy this very good, very prestigious, very expensive cigar made from the finest Cuban tobacco. Its called Trinidad. Yes I know it's not a Cuban name but it is Cuban, really it is, oh you've gone for the Cohiba again...


Sent by spooky action at a distance

[Fsonicsmith]

My combined CC knowledge and CC experience is maybe 2% of our host and many here, but my 2 sense with many boxes of Cohiba and Trinny in my Avallo humi is that the Trinnies are more consistent. Others will almost certainly disagree. 

In response to a remark above, I believe the origin of the Trinidad came from the Trinidad family in Cuba and further, when HSA marketed the new cigar it was named after the city in Cuba. 

And last, there is a mystique associated with the Trinidad imho due to the unique packaging of 12 per box with the larger vitolas, the trademark pigtail, and last but not least the impression that to this day the production is side by side with Cohiba in the El Laguito factory. Being a watch fan, I don't think Rolex and Tudor is a good analogy as I am no fan of Tudor. For me it would be more like the Rolex Daytona 116506 vs. a plain Oyster Perpetual. Fire away if I am wrong 🙂

So where did Trinny go wrong? It seems to me that with Cohiba pricing going through the roof, Trinny went up proportionately and relatively speaking also through the roof. And that is the primary manner in which Trinidad went wrong. But all of this is from someone who thinks that CoRo is overrated. I will take a modest Siglio 3 over a CoRo any day. 

[Corylax18]

On 8/3/2022 at 4:35 AM, Akela3rd said:

Elephant in the room
... the name's always been an issue in that it's a Cuban cigar named after a different country. It's a hard sell to a new market - buy this very good, very prestigious, very expensive cigar made from the finest Cuban tobacco. Its called Trinidad. Yes I know it's not a Cuban name but it is Cuban, really it is, oh you've gone for the Cohiba again...


Sent by spooky action at a distance
 

Trinidad is one of Cuba's "First Cities" and its more than 5 years older than Havana. Its fallen from grace in the last half century or so, but it was also one of the richest/most important cities on the entire planet during the colonial sugar rush. The same people (Columbus, then the Spaniards in General) "Found" Cuba, then "found" Trinidad the country 6 years later. It took even longer than that for them to start calling it Trinidad.  

Trinidad the City was founded in 1514, the country was officially formed in 1962. It's only a 448 year difference, but I think the Cuban's might have a slight edge on any copyright claims. The City of Trinidad, CO was founded before the country (1879) I'm guessing they copied the Cuban's too, but I don't think of the Southern, CO mountains when I light one up.   

[Puros Y Vino]

For me it started when they axed the Trinidad Robusto-T and Robusto Extra.  I was already a fan of the Fundadores, Reyes and Coloniales(though I didn't have much of this one).  With the Robustos gone, they started to introduce some "not quite Robusto" offerings, Vigia, Topes, Media Luna, Esmerelda.  They've been good but not enough for me to buy boxes of them. The La Trova is a winner IMO. 1966 format, great wrappers, etc.  Amongst Habano lovers, the marca is well respected and liked.  Habanos wanted it to be on par or surpass the Cohiba in terms of status, but that never materialized. The Cohiba is still king.  A half + century of name recognition, mystique and and an air of forbidden fruit, solidifies that.  I still have a good supply of Rob-T's and Extras.  The Rob-T was a real eye opener for me.  I was in Rome around 2010 not too long after the BHK line rolled out. I bought a BHK52 single and smoked it one night. Loved it. Smoked a 2009 Rob-T I brought along the next and found that it blew the 52 away.  I already like the cigar then, but juxtaposing it alongside Habano's #1 offering really opened my eyes to how nicely balanced and blended the Trinidad was. 

[BrightonCorgi]

My biggest issue with Trinidad is that their best cigars beyond the Fundadores; Robusto T & Robusto Extra were like butterflies in the night.  Where are they now?  Don't side line the hits! 

The Habanos lure behind Trinidad marca, consumers don't care about.  Cohiba speaks for itself.  The ballers and dictators smoking them through the decades is advertising enough that they are special.  Plus they generally smoke the part.  Trinidad is more a "trust us these are special" kind of lore. 

[Tstew75]

As someone noted above, at least 1 vitola is already being discounted. Pres & many others called it...this Trini price shift will implode soon. Vigia @ 600 Euro? Give me a damn break. I really hope the boxes keep stacking in warehouses & break the back of this thing.

RE: blend, I know I'm in the minority here but I believe the Trini blend lost its' balls years ago. Today it can't hold a flame to the complexity of a Cohiba Classic Range cigar.

[rcarlson]

13 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

The Habanos lure behind Trinidad marca, consumers don't care about.  Cohiba speaks for itself.  The ballers and dictators smoking them through the decades is advertising enough that they are special.  Plus they generally smoke the part.  Trinidad is more a "trust us these are special" kind of lore. 

Like handing off your Chrysler Maserati to the valet expecting him to park it on the front row.  

[Silverstix]

16 hours ago, liquid360 said:

I’ll continue to buy the La Trova, on same days my favorite cigar of them all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Saw a box of La Trova recently with an asking price of $775 - way too rich for my blood

[Ites]

7 hours ago, Akela3rd said:

Elephant in the room
... the name's always been an issue in that it's a Cuban cigar named after a different country. It's a hard sell to a new market - buy this very good, very prestigious, very expensive cigar made from the finest Cuban tobacco. Its called Trinidad. Yes I know it's not a Cuban name but it is Cuban, really it is, oh you've gone for the Cohiba again...


Sent by spooky action at a distance
 

 

4 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

Trinidad is one of Cuba's "First Cities" and its more than 5 years older than Havana. Its fallen from Grace in the last half century or so, but it was also one of the richest/most important cities on the entire planet during the colonial sugar rush. The same people (Columbus, then the Spaniards in General) "Found" Cuba, then "found" Trinidad country 6 years later. It took even longer than that for them to start calling it Trinidad.  

Trinidad the City was founded in 1514, the country was officially formed in 1962. It's only a 448 year difference, but I think the Cuban's might have a slight Edge on any copyright claims. The City of Trinidad, CO was founded before the country (1879) I'm guessing they copied the Cuban's too, but I don't think of the Southern, CO mountains when I light one up.   

Honestly in my mind I had no doubt it was a reference to the word/name itself. Trinidad in Spanish translates to trinity. There's three T's on the logo and/or band.. 

Discarded the island reference early on. I didn't know of the history of the city though, so thanks for sharing

[chris12381]

12 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I don't think that price is correct--Fundys were $10.90 or $261.60 as late as mid-2020. When I was there in Nov 17 they were even lower than that but only singles. They may have gone to the $341.65 price you have in the strange period in late 20-early 21 when the CUC was ended but Fundys were always one of--if not the--best deal on the island. 

I went back and looked at earlier pricing.  From 2001 - 2003 Fundadores were listed at $14.00 each and a box price of 336.00.  Also listed at $13.50 each in 50 count box at $675.00. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20020402111232/http://www.geocities.com:80/freddycigar/price.htm

It does appear they received a significant price adjustment downward which made them more affordable.  I have a big gap in my pricing history (and travel) between 2004 and 2013 "on island" so I don't know when that adjustment occured.      

 

[Akela3rd]

Trinidad is one of Cuba's "First Cities" and its more than 5 years older than Havana. Its fallen from Grace in the last half century or so, but it was also one of the richest/most important cities on the entire planet during the colonial sugar rush. The same people (Columbus, then the Spaniards in General) "Found" Cuba, then "found" Trinidad country 6 years later. It took even longer than that for them to start calling it Trinidad.  
Trinidad the City was founded in 1514, the country was officially formed in 1962. It's only a 448 year difference, but I think the Cuban's might have a slight Edge on any copyright claims. The City of Trinidad, CO was founded before the country (1879) I'm guessing they copied the Cuban's too, but I don't think of the Southern, CO mountains when I light one up.   

True, it's an old Cuban city and good info ( I didn't know about Trinidad CO) but the country of Trinidad and Tobago is better known worldwide, which is my point. Could be that I live near West London with it's strong Caribbean culture so that's my initial point of reference. There we are, I've already talked myself out of it. Carry on chaps...


Sent by spooky action at a distance

[Carrie Nation]

It’s not that Cohibas and Trinidads are too expensive. It’s more like you’ve been getting them on the cheap for a long, long time and didn’t realize it. Both Cohiba and Trinidad have been undervalued since the beginning. 

Pricing for Cohiba has been a raging internal hot-button issue within Habanos since Habanos was formed. Because Cuba is exporting so much less these days, the income deficit has to be partially accounted for by the increased prices…again, something that many at Habanos have wanted to do for decades anyway. Now they have no choice and here we are, reminiscing amongst ourselves like bitter fogies in a nursing home… “I remember when Vigias in Havana only cost $10 each…”  

The Bordeaux/Burgundy analogy is spot on. If you can't afford them, then it's time to reach for a Rhône…or a Partagas.  

[Hammer Smokin']

1 hour ago, Carrie Nation said:

It’s more like you’ve been getting them on the cheap for a long, long time and didn’t realize it.

I wonder if anyone can actually say that with a straight face. 

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, Carrie Nation said:

It’s more like you’ve been getting them on the cheap for a long, long time and didn’t realize it. Both Cohiba and Trinidad have been undervalued since the beginning. 

I've heard that one before but the supply & demand equilibrium says otherwise. Before 2020 all Cohiba and Trini was available on demand and took at least a year to cycle through. Siglo I, II and CoRo was never out of stock, especially in Cuba. The very existence of the gray market is due to surplus at the retail level. If anything was undervalued, we have 4 years of BR auctions to show us that Cohiba was adhering to historical norms of appreciation or about 10% per year. 

Even if Cohiba & Trini were slightly underpriced they certainly weren't underpriced by half. 

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, Carrie Nation said:

It’s not that Cohibas and Trinidads are too expensive. It’s more like you’ve been getting them on the cheap for a long, long time and didn’t realize it. Both Cohiba and Trinidad have been undervalued since the beginning. 

 

Certainly in some markets and that led to the arbitrage. 

There has only been a marginal increase in price in the UK/Asia/Oz/ME

In terms of Trini price. Stock purchased at old prices can certainly be discounted online by those desperate for cashflow. They can only play that card while those stocks last. 

New stock purchased will have a price floor as the HSA price is now uniform to distributors globally.  It will take a pricing adjustment at the HSA level to move the pricing needle significantly on Trini. 

[Chas.Alpha]

10 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Certainly in some markets and that led to the arbitrage. 

There has only been a marginal increase in price in the UK/Asia/Oz/ME

In terms of Trini price. Stock purchased at old prices can certainly be discounted online by those desperate for cashflow. They can only play that card while those stocks last. 

New stock purchased will have a price floor as the HSA price is now uniform to distributors globally.  It will take a pricing adjustment at the HSA level to move the pricing needle significantly on Trini. 

I would still love to know how HSA/PCC moves the margins so that retailer "A" is still in the game with "B", when B has drastically more taxes to pay...🤔

[El Presidente]

2 minutes ago, Chas.Alpha said:

I would still love to know how HSA/PCC moves the margins so that retailer "A" is still in the game with "B", when B has drastically more taxes to pay...🤔

.....see what happened to Spain 

In all seriousness it isn't leggo. Anomolies will exist. There are just a shiteload less anomolies now than before. 

Stock "surging" back onto shelves is likely years away. Of course those shelves will likely be full of Padron/Tatuaje/Tabacalera brands

[Hammer Smokin']

51 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Certainly in some markets and that led to the arbitrage. 

There has only been a marginal increase in price in the UK/Asia/Oz/ME

In terms of Trini price. Stock purchased at old prices can certainly be discounted online by those desperate for cashflow. They can only play that card while those stocks last. 

New stock purchased will have a price floor as the HSA price is now uniform to distributors globally.  It will take a pricing adjustment at the HSA level to move the pricing needle significantly on Trini. 

are we the only country that bases our taxes on the retail price? So now that the retail price is up 2x, 3x, or more, our tax has doubled, tripled, or more. For the places that based their taxes on things like weight, I get that this didn't make much (or any difference). But I can't imagine that Canada is the "only" country in the world that now charges 3x (or more) in taxes on the NEW price. 

[El Presidente]

5 minutes ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

are we the only country that bases our taxes on the retail price? So now that the retail price is up 2x, 3x, or more, our tax has doubled, tripled, or more. For the places that based their taxes on things like weight, I get that this didn't make much (or any difference). But I can't imagine that Canada is the "only" country in the world that now charges 3x (or more) in taxes on the NEW price. 

Canada would appear to have a unique system (in terms of Habanos). The tax load (multi)  magnifies an already bad situation. 

 

[Hammer Smokin']

absolutely. 

The USA is the cheapest country in the world to purchase Cuban cigars. 

[JohnS]

What went wrong for Trinidad? I'm pressed for time this morning so I may elaborate more later.

Basically, in a nutshell, Habanos S.A have been reactionary and lost sense of their objectivity because they entered into a long-term legal dispute with the Trinidad Family over this marca and in doing that, they've maintained a position that Trinidad must be seen as practically equal to Cohiba as a premium marca. In my opinion, this understanding goes a long way to explain the history of the Trinidad brand over the last twenty years.

[Bijan]

24 minutes ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

are we the only country that bases our taxes on the retail price? So now that the retail price is up 2x, 3x, or more, our tax has doubled, tripled, or more. For the places that based their taxes on things like weight, I get that this didn't make much (or any difference). But I can't imagine that Canada is the "only" country in the world that now charges 3x (or more) in taxes on the NEW price. 

Not the only country, and basically it's likely that Habanos will let in a trickle at lower price, so that low price * 3 = closer to new prices.

Just enough to maintain our tiny volume of fully taxed sales.

[El Presidente]

15 minutes ago, JohnS said:

I'm pressed for time this morning so I may elaborate more later.

 

Those kids won't teach themselves John! 

 

Bring in your teachers aid and catch you on zoom