Is Elon Musk correct? Remote Work

[Bijan]

2 hours ago, cjmaas said:

I work with my hands, so I’m genuinely clueless about much of this. But I’m extremely curious how WFHs can seemingly feel so secure. If you can do it 100% remotely, can’t somebody else halfway around the world do it just as well (or better) for centavos on the peso? Even if you’re well educated and perform a couple standard deviations above the mean, there are at least thousands of motivated people around the world just as capable and they’re willing and able to do your job for less. How do you sleep knowing that? 

I mean office or WFH is not going to make the difference. I work in such an industry with WFH, and we already had offices in all the places you'd expect us to go to outsource work way before WFH started. It ends up not being too bad. I mean manufacturing is worse because once they decide to move to somewhere cheaper that's where the factory is going, no matter how skilled some individuals in the high labour cost area are. In our case in theory at least the difference in productivity is being weighed against the difference in wages.

Edit: I don't know the differences in productivity in physical labour, skilled or otherwise. But in some computer desk jockey jobs, especially programming, 10 to 1 differences in productivity between people in the same office are not unusual at all. And the differences in wages between those 2 will not be anywhere near 10 to 1. Maybe not even 2 to 1 most of the time.

[El Presidente]

7 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

interesting topic but i must confess that i originally thought it might be a piss take given that i believe Di, Lisa and the team have you sign a visitor's book on the rare occasions you drop by. i came by to say hi earlier this week. i thought i was going to find your photo on a milk carton. most of your staff thought you were a myth (the tobacco version of the wizard of oz, yet to come out from behind the curtain). 

 

..,..I Iike to think I am the Keyzer Soze of the cigar world 😊

[99call]

when people harp on about the importance of in person meetings,  the grim truth that they are not being honest to,  is that it's actually 'corridor meetings' that they miss. 

Here in the UK at least,  and I suspect all over the world,  there are lots of people who only successfully operate from back dealing, deception, side deals etc. 

I think the truth is, is that when this sort of thing goes on, you want to be in the flesh, and to look in someones eyes/body language..........something thats quite hard to do on zoom. 

Yes, no doubt I think some genuinely miss the camaraderie, or creative brainstorming etc........but I think there are probably a large number of snide bullies who have found zoom has curtailed their ability to get what they want. 

 

[El Presidente]

19 hours ago, 99call said:

when people harp on about the importance of in person meetings,  the grim truth that they are not being honest to,  is that it's actually 'corridor meetings' that they miss. 

Here in the UK at least,  and I suspect all over the world,  there are lots of people who only successfully operate from back dealing, deception, side deals etc. 

I think the truth is, is that when this sort of thing goes on, you want to be in the flesh, and to look in someones eyes/body language..........something thats quite hard to do on zoom. 

Yes, no doubt I think some genuinely miss the camaraderie, or creative brainstorming etc........but I think there are probably a large number of snide bullies who have found zoom has curtailed their ability to get what they want. 

 

 

I would hate to work in your world Stefan! 😦

Without in person communication you cannot build personal relationships. Personal relationships are the foundation of great teams. 

If someone was more than capable of doing the task but had no wish to be part of a "team",  I would rather hire someone else. 

My job is always to build a high performance unit that is flexible, committed and self managing. Some roles can partly be done WFH and Zoom/MTS. Not 100%. Never.  It may not suit the employees to come in 1-2 days a week. Tough titties. 

[BlueRidgeFly]

22 hours ago, cjmaas said:

I work with my hands, so I’m genuinely clueless about much of this. But I’m extremely curious how WFHs can seemingly feel so secure. If you can do it 100% remotely, can’t somebody else halfway around the world do it just as well (or better) for centavos on the peso? Even if you’re well educated and perform a couple standard deviations above the mean, there are at least thousands of motivated people around the world just as capable and they’re willing and able to do your job for less. How do you sleep knowing that? 

That's a real good point. Quick thoughts on the only business I can speak about...

A lot of shops in the software industry hire people overseas to work remotely. Sometimes it works great and they save a ton of $, exactly as you said. Other times it's a cluster****. I've been involved with both.

Effective communication is more critical and more difficult with a remote team, and a lot of people already suck at that, in the office or WFH. And if there are different languages and cultures involved... I work on one project like this and it's tough when you're having meetings and one group is doing it at midnight their time and neither of us speaks the other's language well. I've also worked with groups in other countries who do it all better than Americans I've worked with. It's always a risk up front, though.

About feeling "so secure" -- yeah, anyone who feels that way in any job is asking for trouble!

[pitbos]

All points made in this thread are valid. Change is a hard pill for many to swallow - especially for those that were born and bread into a specific mindset. But the world is/has changed and we are currently in a state of flux which leaves many feeling very uncomfortable. But the writing is on the wall - companies can function efficiently and profitably without having to bring employees into an office environment. This provides an opportunity to reduce real estate costs/operating costs in perpetuity. The math is simply too enticing for many companies not to bite. Couple this with the idea that top tier talent, from around the globe, is now accessible to companies that might never have otherwise been able to secure said talent, and well…you have a strong force which will only continue to build. Working from home at scale is in its infancy. But when technology catches up and provides a level of virtual interaction that we never even imagined, this work from home phenomenon will become the new normal.

The in person deal making that many speak of is of course, highly important. And that will inevitably continue for the foreseeable future. But let’s be honest, the vast majority of this interaction is at the executive level and that represents only a very small percentage of the overall office work force.

Just my opinion. I develop large scale Class A office towers for a living and I see the fear in many real estate developers eyes. They’re trying to will it back to the old ways…but I’m not so sure this force can be stopped.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chibearsv]

We really miss the in person mentorship that occurs when each team is together at the office. For the old veterans, WFH is no problem, but then our less experienced employees don’t get the benefit of veteran assistance. Productivity is fine but QC is lagging without that experience. 

[Bijan]

1 hour ago, Chibearsv said:

We really miss the in person mentorship that occurs when each team is together at the office. For the old veterans, WFH is no problem, but then our less experienced employees don’t get the benefit of veteran assistance. Productivity is fine but QC is lagging without that experience. 

I started my current job last June/July WFH and got some mentoring/onboarding and I'm now mentoring a new hire myself.

I don't know if it's this team's system as opposed to the other teams I worked in in the past but I've never had such follow up. I was meeting with my mentor online on MS teams 3 times a week for the first month or two when I started. And I'm following up with my mentee multiple times a day now.

Never in any previous job did I have a fraction of that follow up in either direction. Generally I'd get a, how is ramp up going? question once a week.

[99call]

7 hours ago, El Presidente said:

I would hate to work in your world Stefan! 😦

Without in person communication you cannot build personal relationships. Personal relationships are the foundation of great teams. 

If someone was more than capable of doing the task but had no wish to be part of a "team",  I would rather hire someone else. 

My job is always to build a high performance unit that is flexible, committed and self managing. Some roles can partly be done WFH and Zoom/MTS. Not 100%. Never.  It may not suit the employees to come in 1-2 days a week. Tough titties. 

Sorry to give the wrong impression.  Obviously the ideal, is to have a work place that feels like family, fun, social, hardworking, challenging, rewarding, aspirational.    At times in my life I've worked under people that fostered this atmosphere, and I loved them for it, and I gave them all my loyalty.  Indeed whenever I have employed people on the rare occasion, I've tried to create and harbour a similar dynamic. 

I guess I was talking about the larger current situation in the UK.   Verified sources have reported Murdoch papers are on the record for saying to government "we will do anything you want.....but you must get people back in the office".   This is my main gripe,  it's that work shouldn't be a daily drudge.  It shouldn't be astronomical annual train tickets, for a service that barely operates,  it shouldn't be a terrible coffee priced like it's made from molten gold. 

Here in the UK, lots of people doing shit jobs, have had an awakening, and that they were simply going through the motions, living a life that puts the employer, the private train operator, the extortionate sandwich company etc etc in the driving seat.    Currently the edict from the government is "get back to the office, or else".  I think lots of modern entrepreneurialism in the UK, is based around 'mining the poor'.  Whether it be insecure/unregulated zero hours contract jobs, or people with energy meters paying more than anyone else in the country.  I just thinks its rotten, and the pandemic has given people an arial view of it, and they've said no!  never mind your terms.....I have my own terms.        Also because of the utter folly of Brexshit, and the cut off of skilled foreign work, the employer is increasingly being held over a barrel.     Strike action is also on the rise. 

I think people are happy to work, but balance of advantage between employer and employee needs rectifying

[Hammer Smokin']

On 6/2/2022 at 9:45 PM, Fuzz said:

Well, that's the rub. If you only want WFH, do not complain when your job suddenly gets outsourced to another country, because there is little difference.

that is a very common, but in most cases, very inaccurate comment. 

We tried it. There is a big difference. 

3 years we used India for extremely basic services. 

It was horrible. 

It flunked badly. 

We cancelled our Genpack contract this year. 

Outsourcing for ANY job that requires communication (and sales) isn't an option. 

[PigFish]

I am well suited to work from a remote office. I have done it for 4 years now. However, there is a balance, and the one working remote (autonomously) must be trustworthy enough to know the need to isolate and work, or be present with the team and work.

There are many other factors here. Do you have a dining room table or an actual office? Having been self-employed for decades I understand the need for a remote office, not a desk in my living room. There is a huge difference. MHO.

My company pays for my office equipment, but I support it with my own. I have no more downtime than the company does as far as technology is concerned. I pay for my own 'seat' for software that I want to use if different from the company. I run it on my own computer(s). I work more like a consultant than an employee...

When you sell your life force for money the arrangement should be bilateral. Depending on the work, your skill level, value of your time, this may not be the case for all people. I think the employer should have the rights to call the shots here. I do what my employer asks, and if they ask too much, I will move on. I will not commute 100 miles each way to our corporate office. Nor will I commute 40 miles each way to downtown LA at the cost of 5 hours a day of my own time. Those are breaking points for me. I will however, fly commute, once a week if necessary, on demand if necessary to support my jobs and my teams. Most in my industry teammates need to be on the job site. I don't... However I do know when I have to go and I don't duck it.

Flying for work sucks... don't get me wrong. However it is better to keep my autonomy and work outside of local, keeping my remote office, than to commute daily and work at a job site. There is a compromise. Most that do what I do, want to work close to their home. I don't care... But for the days that I am not 'out of town, on-site' I work from a remote office (at my home).

There is no, 'one size fits all' here. This is the reason that the government should stay out of it and the employer should do what they feel is right for their own company.

For me... I am far more productive at my office. My teams are comprised of people I love and care for. I believe they feel the same about me. We eat, bitch, talk, joke and pal-around together, when together. It is frankly harder for all of us, in many cases, with me around, unless I am just there to solve problems.

In the end a 'one person hour' problem should be solved by a person in an hour. Often collaboration is the best solution, but when a one person hour problem becomes a three and four person hour problem, time and effort is squandered and the company we work for gets cheated. I can spend an hour solving a problem in person, that I can solve in 5 minutes over the phone. Togetherness, can be both good and bad for the company's time.

Flexibility is the right move here. If one falls in the camp of all or none; that is a mistake. MHO.

-tP

[hrs1]

Similar to many who work in software, productivity has gone up on average for the companies I work with (at least in the crude terms of time logged into a computer vs time spent in office).    

My two cents: remote/distributed teams magnify the impact of management for good or ill.

Companies that handle distributed or remote teams well avoid a one size fits all approach.   They take deliberate steps to ensure that the informal relationship building and learning that used to happen in the office happens virtually.    They stress frequent company wide, cross-functional communications.  They recognize the company needs to be together in person on some regular cadence (e.g., monthly/quarterly ‘onsites’) to drive team cohesion and alignment.   They know some people need to be in office more than others (early & late career employees, sales & marketing … extraverts in general , exec teams with consensus-driven decision making styles, early stage project teams, etc.).   Simply put, they understand their people aren’t all the same and take care to ensure they are supported to help drive the company towards its goals.

When I work with software companies who are/were struggling with the transition, I usually come across poor or inexperienced managers.  The HR departments didn’t fully understand the ways in which informal networks in the office were managing their teams.   The leadership usually doesn’t appreciate that the reduction in real estate spend is somewhat offset by increased T&E, software purchases, investments in training, etc. that make hybrid or remote work work.   For companies in this position, requiring people to return to the office is probably the best choice they could make in the short run.

[El Presidente]

7 hours ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

that is a very common, but in most cases, very inaccurate comment. 

We tried it. There is a big difference. 

3 years we used India for extremely basic services. 

It was horrible. 

It flunked badly. 

We cancelled our Genpack contract this year. 

Outsourcing for ANY job that requires communication (and sales) isn't an option. 

They are getting much better. 

We have a requirement (different business) for a remote CRM solution. 

US owned, US trained, Philipine and/or India based. 

Having gone through this process 10 years ago, the progress/improvement in remote CRM delivery is impressive.  Then again, you get what you pay for. 

Mind you, our product is simple and 99% of inquiry will be about package delivery or explaining to the intellectually challenged which way AA batteries should go. 

[Ryan]

Looks like somebody did a study.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-06-02/are-workers-more-productive-at-home?utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_medium=social&utm_content=view&cmpid=socialflow-facebook-view&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR25AAvbubZVRDbViVgva3tanCIqS51ZtgsFvrrANSURAR_Haq2pCpyXm5g

Worth the read.

 

Personally I'm lucky. I've been working from home and on the road full time since 2016. So nothing new for me in 2020 with the pandemic. When we built our house in 2005, we put in only 3 bedrooms but me and my wife each got our own office in the house. Every room wired from a hub for CAT5, phone and coax.

With me, my wife and the kids working and schooling from home during pandemic, we had no internet traffic issues as I had already put in decent router to handle any traffic. With the kids downloading 50 gB games and all of us on video calls at the same time it becomes apparent very quickly.

People who know me know I work at any hour. When I was last regularly working in an office, I got to know the doorman of the "Gentlemen's Club" beside the building as he would have to have cars moved when I went in at 3 am to get some work done. Then, as now, I wake up at any hour with "a solution" that I need to get done right away. That's much easier now when all I have to do is go upstairs.

Individual creative work, work that requires focus, is definitely much easier when there are no distractions of other people, phone calls, emails etc. It's the team stuff of course, workshopping projects, bouncing ideas, "getting on the same page", that is more difficult remotely.  

[Cigar Surgeon]

Preface by saying: WFH obviously won't work for all roles and all people. I'm a Business Analyst in the Energy sector and I've been largely WFH since 3/20 and my productivity is through the roof.

I find it ironic that the people that tout office culture in my company seem to have no issues with salespeople popping out of the office for hours at a time for a coffee. Or taking off for a 2 hour "client lunch". I really question how productivity is being measured for WFH versus in the office. My direct observation on days that I come into the office:

• I'm almost always the first one in the office
• The office is routinely half vacant from the people that are supposed to be at the office full time
• The justification for being from the office is 'face time availability', and yet it almost never happens
• Most in person meetings could either be discarded or reduced significantly and nothing of value would be lost
• There is far more time spent socializing and BS'ing in the office

It's far easier for me to roll out of bed in the morning, make myself two cups of coffee and start working than all the preparation and waste of time and gas to go into the office. 

[avaldes]

We did a study at my place to really dig into what was making the WFT/In Office experience more or less efficient. We are a small engineering firm and we started out with remote employees from the very beginning.

The "gotta be in the office" crowd generally said that they needed to have face to face interactions and for remote people to be available at any time of the day to solve a problem. Which was interesting because we HEAVILY use Teams and our entire staff is online during the day.

At the end of the day, that group of people were not willing to embrace the technology or means available to reach remote people. It wasn't that remote people were unavailable, it's that they were not willing to pick up the phone or do a video conference "because they should be here."

I am pretty sure the majority of this debate is due to people's unwillingness to embrace change.

[El Presidente]

I look forward to the continued development and  introduction of VR into this space. 

VR meetings would be a gamechanger. 

VR herfs would be a hell of a lot of fun!

 

[dobbs]

On 6/2/2022 at 6:45 PM, Fuzz said:

Well, that's the rub. If you only want WFH, do not complain when your job suddenly gets outsourced to another country, because there is little difference.

On 6/4/2022 at 7:36 AM, Hammer Smokin' said:

that is a very common, but in most cases, very inaccurate comment. 

We tried it. There is a big difference. 

3 years we used India for extremely basic services. 

It was horrible. 

It flunked badly. 

We cancelled our Genpack contract this year. 

Outsourcing for ANY job that requires communication (and sales) isn't an option. 

52 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

I look forward to the continued development and  introduction of VR into this space. 

VR meetings would be a gamechanger. 

VR herfs would be a hell of a lot of fun!

 

i'll somewhat echo el presidente. i think that currently there are a lot of desk jobs that cannot be outsourced, but it is only a matter of time. not that long ago chinese manufacturing was a joke...

-dobbs

[NapaNolan]

Can't make wine from home.

Unless I'm being bombarded with emails I have to be on-site.

[Duxnutz]

6 hours ago, NapaNolan said:

Can't make wine from home.

Unless I'm being bombarded with emails I have to be on-site.

Can’t fly a plane from home…….. wait….. oh cr@p!

[dominattorney]

On 6/2/2022 at 8:28 AM, Chibearsv said:

 I don't think the world revolves around me whatsoever, but I'm going to enjoy what I've earned.  Do younger people really believe that my generation never worked or earned or struggled?  Give it a rest.

 

There's a certain subset of young people that do believe this, though. It's a fact. I don't think anyone here is saying the belief is either objectively supported by evidence or even reasonable, but it's one that is shared by many younger people in the United States at least. I certainly don't condone the belief but I can't pretend it's not part of the political climate. Read comments about loan forgiveness online if you don't believe me. Pretty aching divide. 

[asudevil08]

On 6/5/2022 at 10:07 AM, Cigar Surgeon said:

Preface by saying: WFH obviously won't work for all roles and all people. I'm a Business Analyst in the Energy sector and I've been largely WFH since 3/20 and my productivity is through the roof.

I find it ironic that the people that tout office culture in my company seem to have no issues with salespeople popping out of the office for hours at a time for a coffee. Or taking off for a 2 hour "client lunch". I really question how productivity is being measured for WFH versus in the office. My direct observation on days that I come into the office:

• I'm almost always the first one in the office
• The office is routinely half vacant from the people that are supposed to be at the office full time
• The justification for being from the office is 'face time availability', and yet it almost never happens
• Most in person meetings could either be discarded or reduced significantly and nothing of value would be lost
• There is far more time spent socializing and BS'ing in the office

It's far easier for me to roll out of bed in the morning, make myself two cups of coffee and start working than all the preparation and waste of time and gas to go into the office. 

Amen to all of this.  Pretty much summed up my thinking.

[El Presidente]

On 6/6/2022 at 3:07 AM, Cigar Surgeon said:

. My direct observation on days that I come into the office:

• I'm almost always the first one in the office
• The office is routinely half vacant from the people that are supposed to be at the office full time
• The justification for being from the office is 'face time availability', and yet it almost never happens
• Most in person meetings could either be discarded or reduced significantly and nothing of value would be lost
• There is far more time spent socializing and BS'ing in the office

It's far easier for me to roll out of bed in the morning, make myself two cups of coffee and start working than all the preparation and waste of time and gas to go into the office. 

Condolences. You unfortunately have a shitty office culture! 

[benfica_77]

21 hours ago, El Presidente said:

I look forward to the continued development and  introduction of VR into this space. 

VR meetings would be a gamechanger. 

VR herfs would be a hell of a lot of fun!

 

I'm not sure if i'm ready to see Ken in his underwear in VR....LOLL

[Fugu]

When I hear those statements of folks complain about the “younger generation” it always strikes me, are you not parents of sons and daughters yourself?! Teach them life, best you can, but don’t whine.