Bad experiences at your local B&M/Lounge

[jonahs_whale]

Had a pretty odd experience the other day at a local lounge that I tried out for the first time that left a really bad taste in my mouth. Curious your opinions and what other stories people have had.

A few friends and I went to a lounge that we hadn't been to before. It's BYO drinks situation so they have a $20 cutting fee or buy a stick from the lounge situation. It was our first hangout of the year, so we wanted to smoke our CCs (had a PSP2 and it was fantastic) so we had decided to purchase a stick. I walked into the humidor and before I even get to say hi, one of the employees asks me "do you like mild, medium, or heavy?" I reply that I'm looking for something a bit lighter. Without hesitating he grabs something random off the wall and hands it to me and says "buy this." No further explanation of what it is or why i might like it. 

I kindly ask where he got it from, put it back and start actually looking through the humidor to see what i might want. He seems annoyed and leaves the walk-in humidor. A few minutes later, I go up to the cash register to pay and he makes a stink that the stick that i chose wasn't expensive enough and that I should have bought the one that he chose for me because it was a $30 stick. At this point I'm starting to get annoyed. The rules were pretty simple, $20 cutting fee or buy a stick. There were plenty of real cheap sticks, but i picked up a Trinindad NC that was about $18, figured that was fine per the rules, but the employee is making a stink that it's not enough. I would have happily just picked up another stick to get to the cost if the rules were clearer, also the two employees didn't agree on what the cutting fee was either, one said $20 the other said $25. 

All this to say, it was an annoying experience. More than the cutting fee situation, I hated that: 1 he assumed that i didn't know a damn thing about cigars despite having brought in my own sticks (should show that i at least have some idea) 2 basically just chose one of the pricier sticks and handed it to me with 0 explanation of what it is or why. The whole thing was super transactional and really didn't live up to the lounge experiences i've had elsewhere. 

Thanks for listening - end rant

[Puros Y Vino]

First off. It's great that you are able to enjoy a cigar lounge. Many around the world cannot.  With that said, just select your own stick up front or explicitly mention you'll pay that cutting fee.    For every customer that is knowledgeable about cigars there's a least one who isn't.  Their assumption isn't wrong, though it can be annoying.  Failing that. Go "full Karen" on him and ask to speak to the manager.

 

[CaptainQuintero]

17 minutes ago, Puros Y Vino said:

First off. It's great that you are able to enjoy a cigar lounge. Many around the world cannot.  With that said, just select your own stick up front or explicitly mention you'll pay that cutting fee.    For every customer that is knowledgeable about cigars there's a least one who isn't.  Their assumption isn't wrong, though it can be annoying.  Failing that. Go "full Karen" on him and ask to speak to the manager.

 

  Stop being so reasonable Frank, go down with Pig's advice: load up on eggs and burritos for breakfast then spend a good half an hour in their walk in before lunch changing the aroma!

[eLJardins]

Their policy should be clearer. 

Minimum amount for a purchase or a set cutting fee.

The lounge/shop should understand that some people might prefer to store their cigars in their personal humidors that are set up with their preferred temp and humidity. 

The shop has the right to have their own special rules but they need to be communicated clearly.

[BrightonCorgi]

BYO liquor situation is very interesting. 

[jonahs_whale]

I'm kicking myself for not better remembering what he recommended, but I do remember it being over $30 for the stick and he mentioned something briefly about it having some affiliation to Nat Sherman, but that's about all he said

[Corylax18]

While I agree with you that the service you described was inadequate, I also have a slightly different view regarding cutting fee vs. cigar purchases in these cases. I travel a lot for work and because of that I have had the opportunity to try some lounges all around the country. I don't think that buying the equivalent $$ Value in cigars is the same as paying the cutting fee. I've never had any trouble, anywhere in the country doing what I describe below.

The Cutting fee has no hard costs associated with it. It really just goes to cover the overhead. When you buy a cigar, at least 50% of that is paying the shop for the cigar, the other 50% (those are the %s I use because I don't want to do real math) can be counted towards the "cutting fee". 

So in this case, if the cutting fee is $20, I would try to buy about $40 worth of cigars, drinks, accessories, whatever.  as @Puros Y Vino mentioned, we're pretty lucky to have these lounges at all and I don't mind going a bit heavy if it helps these places stay open. I lost my all time favorite, go-to, lounge just as Covid hit and I still haven't found a good replacement. 

This is really the only way I've purchased an NC Cigar in the last 12 years or so. It gives me a chance to remind myself how lucky I am to have access to Cuban's. 😁

[Ites]

As far as I know, there's really only one lounge here in the country, and I've never been. But as has been stated before, I agree that what you describe is poor customer service.

In my head the whole idea of bring your own liqour and cutting fee is all a bit strange. I would feel wierd going to a serving establishment (café/bar/restaurant) and not buy what they have to offer. I recognise it's a cultural thing and perhaps embargo stuff but unless the place have something interesting to offer I'd be looking elsewhere. If I want to enjoy what I have myself I'd just stay home or go outside. No offense though, it's just culturally different on your side of the pond

[Corylax18]

Just now, Ites said:

As far as I know, there's really only one lounge here in the country, and I've never been. But as has been stated before, I agree that what you describe is poor customer service.

In my head the whole idea of bring your own liqour and cutting fee is all a bit strange. I would feel wierd going to a serving establishment (café/bar/restaurant) and not buy what they have to offer. I recognise it's a cultural thing and perhaps embargo stuff but unless the place have something interesting to offer I'd be looking elsewhere. If I want to enjoy what I have myself I'd just stay home or go outside. No offense though, it's just culturally different on your side of the pond

The BYOB thing is really more of a Government oversite thing. Its can be very difficult and expensive to obtain a liquor license (license to resell alcohol) in many parts of the country. There are even, technically, still some "dry" counties here in the US Mostly in Idaho and the South. Most lounges would love to get the markup from liquor sales, but just cant.

But, here in Colorado, I've gotten my hand slapped for bringing in my own Cuban rum to establishments before. If someone saw it being served, they could say that the bar provided it and is breaking the law. Then they loose their license.

We cant all agree on anything over here, this is just another one of those things. 🙂

[jonahs_whale]

22 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

 

The Cutting fee has no hard costs associated with it. It really just goes to cover the overhead. When you buy a cigar, at least 50% of that is paying the shop for the cigar, the other 50% (those are the %s I use because I don't want to do real math) can be counted towards the "cutting fee". 

Yeah that totally makes sense and I'm happy to comply with that logic. Just make it clear and have consistent messaging between your employees. I fully expect to spend money when i go to a lounge. If it was a more traditional lounge, I'd easily spend over $50 in drinks/food.

 

The bigger annoyance is really the poor treatment when I was looking for a cigar. The other employee was really helpful and tried to meet me where I was, asking me what I usually smoke and if i was looking for something new or match something I'm familiar with. 

[Ites]

1 hour ago, jonahs_whale said:

Yeah that totally makes sense and I'm happy to comply with that logic. Just make it clear and have consistent messaging between your employees. I fully expect to spend money when i go to a lounge. If it was a more traditional lounge, I'd easily spend over $50 in drinks/food.

 

The bigger annoyance is really the poor treatment when I was looking for a cigar. The other employee was really helpful and tried to meet me where I was, asking me what I usually smoke and if i was looking for something new or match something I'm familiar with. 

Agreed, they need to be clear so that the costumer can make an informed decision as to which way he/she prefers to go. 

 

1 hour ago, Corylax18 said:

The BYOB thing is really more of a Government oversite thing. Its can be very difficult and expensive to obtain a liquor license (license to resell alcohol) in many parts of the country. There are even, technically, still some "dry" counties here in the US Mostly in Idaho and the South. Most lounges would love to get the markup from liquor sales, but just cant.

But, here in Colorado, I've gotten my hand slapped for bringing in my own Cuban rum to establishments before. If someone saw it being served, they could say that the bar provided it and is breaking the law. Then they loose their license.

We cant all agree on anything over here, this is just another one of those things. 🙂

Oh yes, I'm sure it's all a bit messy and not at all as clear-cut as I made it out to be. 

[BrightonCorgi]

Some people are just douches and they work in all sectors.

[dominattorney]

2 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

The BYOB thing is really more of a Government oversite thing. Its can be very difficult and expensive to obtain a liquor license (license to resell alcohol) in many parts of the country. There are even, technically, still some "dry" counties here in the US Mostly in Idaho and the South. Most lounges would love to get the markup from liquor sales, but just cant.

But, here in Colorado, I've gotten my hand slapped for bringing in my own Cuban rum to establishments before. If someone saw it being served, they could say that the bar provided it and is breaking the law. Then they loose their license.

We cant all agree on anything over here, this is just another one of those things. 🙂

Byo liquor is common in colorado because of draconian smoking indoors laws. You can't get a liquor license if you allow smoking indoors unless you're grandfathered in and the rules for that are tight. Only other option is a social club, but you have to exist for 2 years without slinging hooch before you apply for the license and even then, they don't have to give you one. I buddied up to a lady on a local liquor licensing board and she told me point blank, you aint getting the license for whatever reason they can think of if you're running a smoking lounge. Plain and simple.

 

Luckily in colorado springs where I live there's this awesome private club where monthly dues are reasonable. You bring your own sticks, but buddy will sell you one if you like too. You bring your own hooch and as a member the perk is that it gets poured for you. You step behind the bar or touch a bottle, you're out. Makes sense. And everyone has a great time there. 

I've rage quit more than a few places where situations similar to that described by the OP occurred. One in particular where I spent around 3 to 4 hundred a month I had this 18 year old literally put out my cc I had sitting in an ash tray while engaged in a conversation with other patrons, and then tell me I wasn't allowed to bring my own sticks. This was not part of the policy, as I had an understanding with the manager, and spent more than most other guys did at the shop. Kind of dumb because no one told the kid not to be a clown about it and the shop lost my business for good. 

[dominattorney]

2 hours ago, jonahs_whale said:

Yeah that totally makes sense and I'm happy to comply with that logic. Just make it clear and have consistent messaging between your employees. I fully expect to spend money when i go to a lounge. If it was a more traditional lounge, I'd easily spend over $50 in drinks/food.

 

The bigger annoyance is really the poor treatment when I was looking for a cigar. The other employee was really helpful and tried to meet me where I was, asking me what I usually smoke and if i was looking for something new or match something I'm familiar with. 

Happens too many times to count. These places treat you poorly and then bemoan that they're in a dying industry. Hard for me to generally sympathize with them based on lots of behavior. There are 3 shops in my town and I won't set foot in 2 of them for bad customer service experiences of one type or another. Usually it's similar to what you describe. Go into buy a stick and you're treated like a moron if you don't like the flavor of the moment that they unsolicitiously recommend. I usually go in with a positive attitude toward fitting in also, like @Corylax18 describes. But some folks just want to talk at you and not leave you be. Then they wonder why I'm not buying boxes. 

[Kaptain Karl]

That's a bummer. My local B&M is a gem. Only issue is no CC talk allowed when the owner is in, other than that it's super friendly, low key, and BYOB. 

[Chas.Alpha]

7 minutes ago, Kaptain Karl said:

That's a bummer. My local B&M is a gem. Only issue is no CC talk allowed when the owner is in, other than that it's super friendly, low key, and BYOB. 

I remember a convo that I had with my shopkeep over in Tampa. He was getting annoyed with a certain group that would bring their own sticks, order a $1.00 bottle of water then occupy 6/7 chairs and a table for a few hours. Of course, he had a beer and wine license. I'm not sure he ever actually brought it up to them. I wouldn't get near the place this poor chap discovered.

[El Presidente]

5 hours ago, jonahs_whale said:

All this to say, it was an annoying experience. More than the cutting fee situation, I hated that: 1 he assumed that i didn't know a damn thing about cigars despite having brought in my own sticks (should show that i at least have some idea) 2 basically just chose one of the pricier sticks and handed it to me with 0 explanation of what it is or why. The whole thing was super transactional and really didn't live up to the lounge experiences i've had elsewhere. 

Thanks for listening - end rant

 

That is a disappointing experience. 

As the owner of that business I would like to know what is going on. An email to the establishment detailing your experience may lead to a change. 

No change and it's future isn't bright. 

 

[dominattorney]

23 minutes ago, Chas.Alpha said:

I remember a convo that I had with my shopkeep over in Tampa. He was getting annoyed with a certain group that would bring their own sticks, order a $1.00 bottle of water then occupy 6/7 chairs and a table for a few hours. Of course, he had a beer and wine license. I'm not sure he ever actually brought it up to them. I wouldn't get near the place this poor chap discovered.

See, from a shop owners perspective that is absolutely annoying. If I were him I'd approach the group and offer them a more robust beverage. If declined I'd consider posting conspicuously a new policy after they left stating a drink or spend minimum or cutting fee in lieu of purchase. 

[El Presidente]

Just now, dominattorney said:

See, from a shop owners perspective that is absolutely annoying. If I were him I'd approach the group and offer them a more robust beverage. If declined I'd consider posting conspicuously a new policy after they left stating a drink or spend minimum or cutting fee in lieu of purchase. 

People who do this stuff are either remarkably ignorant or simply the type of pricks you don't want. 

"Listen tightarses, don't take this the wrong way. You are welcome to smoke whatever you like but have some decency and as a minimum leave the same $ value in cigars or drinks in this establishment. If you can't do that, piss off and go smoke in the park. Let me kick off our new relationship by shouting you a jug of beer."

[Chas.Alpha]

2 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

People who do this stuff are either remarkably ignorant or simply the type of pricks you don't want. 

"Listen tightarses, don't take this the wrong way. You are welcome to smoke whatever you like but have some decency and as a minimum leave the same $ value in cigars or drinks in this establishment. If you can't do that, piss off and go smoke in the park. Let me kick off our new relationship by shouting you a jug of beer."

Mostly, I would go to the cigar lounge with my own sticks. That said, I'm ALWAYS up for a bucket of beer with my smoke! Sharing an occasional E2 with the proprietor never hurts, either.

[SpecialK]

1 hour ago, dominattorney said:

Luckily in colorado springs where I live there's this awesome private club where monthly dues are reasonable. You bring your own sticks, but buddy will sell you one if you like too. You bring your own hooch and as a member the perk is that it gets poured for you. You step behind the bar or touch a bottle, you're out. Makes sense. And everyone has a great time there. 

 

Was in the Springs and Woodland park many years ago... I remember a shop  at the other end of Academy (not near the interstate) that I would frequent ..  went back 5 years ago to visit my old haunts and my house on Rockrimmon.. It's grown to much for me.. 

I'm lucky here in the Boise Area.. both of our lounges have liquor license's and no cutting fees.. I still reimburse them for my stay... I'm not an animal  

[dominattorney]

7 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

Was in the Springs and Woodland park many years ago... I remember a shop  at the other end of Academy (not near the interstate) that I would frequent ..  went back 5 years ago to visit my old haunts and my house on Rockrimmon.. It's grown to much for me.. 

I'm lucky here in the Boise Area.. both of our lounges have liquor license's and no cutting fees.. I still reimburse them for my stay... I'm not an animal  

That is lucky. You're speaking of the Stag. I agree. It's grown too large, and the experience is not wholly pleasant. 

[Corylax18]

1 hour ago, Chas.Alpha said:

Sharing an occasional E2 with the proprietor never hurts, either.

I cant over state how far this can get you. For the last 5 or 6 years, I pretty much had to go behind the bar and print a bill for myself if I wanted to pay them anything at my local spot. A half a dozen Cubans for the crew every couple months goes a lllloooongggg way. 

 

2 hours ago, dominattorney said:

Byo liquor is common in colorado because of draconian smoking indoors laws. You can't get a liquor license if you allow smoking indoors unless you're grandfathered in and the rules for that are tight. Only other option is a social club, but you have to exist for 2 years without slinging hooch before you apply for the license and even then, they don't have to give you one. I buddied up to a lady on a local liquor licensing board and she told me point blank, you aint getting the license for whatever reason they can think of if you're running a smoking lounge. Plain and simple.

 

Luckily in colorado springs where I live there's this awesome private club where monthly dues are reasonable. You bring your own sticks, but buddy will sell you one if you like too. You bring your own hooch and as a member the perk is that it gets poured for you. You step behind the bar or touch a bottle, you're out. Makes sense. And everyone has a great time there. 

I've rage quit more than a few places where situations similar to that described by the OP occurred. One in particular where I spent around 3 to 4 hundred a month I had this 18 year old literally put out my cc I had sitting in an ash tray while engaged in a conversation with other patrons, and then tell me I wasn't allowed to bring my own sticks. This was not part of the policy, as I had an understanding with the manager, and spent more than most other guys did at the shop. Kind of dumb because no one told the kid not to be a clown about it and the shop lost my business for good. 

I feel like its just like that in the springs though. I'm not aware of a BYOB place around Denver, or even in the Boulder area. They may exist, I'm just not aware of them. I think the state has a certain sales % requirement for tobacco vs. everything else. My old go-to technically had two separate businesses. The cigar store/lounge and the "bar" next store. Same owner, staff, hours, everything. One sold tobacco, the other sold the booze. I never saw the interior door between the two closed. The wall was glass, it was really one business. 

Unfortunately, I've had experiences more similar to the OP and other posters here at most of the others lounges in the Denver area. I'm going to try a new (to me) lounge with my Dad in the next couple weeks. We also lost the smoking room at our local steakhouse(Del Frisco's) about a 5 minute drive from me during the pandemic. I didn't realize until it was gone how much I miss washing back a big steak with a nice cigar. Its getting harder and harder to enjoy the habit outside of your own home, that's for sure. 

[dominattorney]

49 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

I feel like its just like that in the springs though. I'm not aware of a BYOB place around Denver, or even in the Boulder area. They may exist, I'm just not aware of them. I think the state has a certain sales % requirement for tobacco vs. everything else. My old go-to technically had two separate businesses. The cigar store/lounge and the "bar" next store. Same owner, staff, hours, everything. One sold tobacco, the other sold the booze. I never saw the interior door between the two closed. The wall was glass, it was really one business. 

Unfortunately, I've had experiences more similar to the OP and other posters here at most of the others lounges in the Denver area. I'm going to try a new (to me) lounge with my Dad in the next couple weeks. We also lost the smoking room at our local steakhouse(Del Frisco's) about a 5 minute drive from me during the pandemic. I didn't realize until it was gone how much I miss washing back a big steak with a nice cigar. Its getting harder and harder to enjoy the habit outside of your own home, that's for sure. 

Apologies for taking this response out of order, but no more smoking lounge at Del Friscos?  You're killing me.  My wife and I used to love that place back when I lived in Castle Rock.  We'd hit that place up every Wednesday night where there was this bomb jazz trio with a vocalist who could just SANG.  The burgers you could get in there were spectacular as well.  We made a mental note to do it again soon while driving to the airport for our scheduled vacation.  That's a real shame. 

Going back to the beginning, it's not just the Springs.  (Not actionable legal advice because I don't care that much to take the time here to be 100% accurate, but close enough for our purposes here) The Colorado Clean Indoor Air Act (CRS 25-14-204) prohibits smoking in most indoor places.  There is an exception for a cigar-bar, but that is defined in CRS 25-14-203 as a bar that, as of the end of 2005, made at least 5% of its revenue from the sale of tobacco products.  If you don't meet that definition, you're not a cigar bar. Also, if you have an off year and don't make 5% or 50K from the sale of tobacco (or renting on site humidors) you lose the classification for good and its no longer legal to smoke there.  And CRS 25-14-204 prohibits smoking in regular bars, and pretty much everywhere else (including museums--unclear how that ever came up, mostly because Colorado has for crap museums on average, not because it wouldn't be sweet to fire up a Lusi and take in a Rembrandt). 

So, when they passed the Act, there were only a few places that met the definition of cigar-bar.  I know the place you're referring to in your response above, and also find that place to be pretty nice when I'm in the area.   But it's my understanding that it is grandfathered in--though maybe it gets around that issue by having the glass wall you described, not 100% sure.  So was Del Friscos.  I've heard Shanahans is as well but I don't know for sure.  Oddly, Shotgun Willies was also, or was but they moved locations (see also that the CIAA prohibits a cigar bar from expanding its size or changing locations or it will no longer be classified as such and then you can't smoke there anymore).  "The Dirty"--what we called the Castle Rock Bar and Grill, used to be an exception, but they inexplicably decided to give up the classification and ban smoking there.  There are vanishingly few places in Colorado that retain the ability to both serve alcohol and allow you to smoke inside. 

The other obvious exception is for a tobacco store, which is why you can smoke in a cigar shop.  That's where things get annoying.  I know this because I tilted at windmills on behalf of a few friends who wanted to start a cigar bar in Castle Rock near the new expanded Outlet Mall.  Would have been a great idea, and made money hand over fist as you could drop your wife off with a credit card on Sunday and grab a few beers/malts while you catch the game.  Everyone wins.  But there is no way around the nanny state, sadly.  The exception we (I--pro bono I may add) explored was the social club exception, another potential exception, because it's not explicitly disallowed, and would not be a place of employment, necessarily (also not allowed under the Act).  However, that's where I hit a wall with the liquor board, which is another ball of wax.  It CANNOT be done.  You can not open a cigar lounge that serves alcohol in any fashion that is generally open to the public.  Or you can't for very long before someone finds out and you get shut down.  That's Colorado.  Purple we are, liberal we lean. 

That leaves but one, lone option.  Be a social club that sells cigars.  Members only, and guests allowed with members.  That way members can bring their own alcohol and it appears to be in compliance with the law.  At least, that's where I left off 7 years ago when I last dived deep into the cesspool that is the governmental regulation of our fine hobby.  The problems there are obvious--you'd make more money by far if you could sell booze or food, and you lose out by allowing people to bring their own--but it's the only way to run the show if you're in it for the long haul and don't have a grandfathered cigar-bar. 

On a closing note, I'd love to hear what places you usually frequent in CO.  I'm mostly down in the southland, so I don't get up to the Metro Area much, but my recollection is Churchills at the Brown Palace is still a neat place to hit if you can get a table.  Used to know a member so it wasn't a problem, but he moved to New Zealand and I didn't want to buy him out of his locker. 

 

[Chibearsv]

I wonder if the shop was "encouraging" you to buy a cigar of their choice for the "permission" to smoke cuban cigars on their premises.  Maybe their cutting fees and buy a stick policy assumed NCs being brought in and their way of charging more for a CC service was to point you to the cigar they wanted you to buy (maybe an expensive slow mover).  Just a theory...no knowledge on my part.