5G and Airline flights?

[Corylax18]

13 minutes ago, Dynamo320 said:

The A320CEO has not in any way been approved for all operations at all affected airports. I fly both CEO and NEO models. I’ve not had any correspondence regarding differences between the two. The FAA issued an airworthiness directive that pertains to ALL aircraft, except 787 which will have its own set of rules regarding Mel’s among other performance related data. All aircraft would be restricted from utilizing autoland, cat 1 SA, ILS cat2, cat 3, and Rnav rnp. That is pretty far from uninhibited ops. 1500 notams have been issued and are ready to be unleashed. Radio altimeter problems are a whole other ball of wax.  It’s data is integral to so many different systems. I’m an operator, not an engineer or telecommunications expert. 

Airliners have been using current radio altimeter technology forever. Playing devils advocate, Why should they be forced to change a system that obviously has worked for a long time to accommodate Verizon and AT&T?  Understand that I know virtually nothing about that technology!

 

Touche on the Boeing data. I’ve got about 15,000 hours in the Bus and zero in Boeing. 

The FAA issued an Updated Airworthiness directive yesterday clearing two Radio Altimeter models that are used by about 45% of the active commercial aircraft in the US. It just happened. The A320 CEO and 737NG both use one of the two models. I quoted the article below. Boeing and Airbus don't manufacture their own Altimeters, so that's why the list isn't exclusively one or the other manufacturer. The new directive allows all of these planes to operate unrestricted, even at the "affected" airports. The other 55% of active models appear to be mainly 787, 777, A380 and MAX/NEO's. They still cant operate at the 50 listed airports, but the remaining hundreds are open for business. 

The FAA revised the list on Monday and cleared two radio altimeter models used in many Boeing and Airbus passenger aircraft. However, more than half the commercial passenger jets flying in the US are not utilizing those radio altimeter models, including Boeing 777s and 787s.

20 minutes ago, Dynamo320 said:

Airliners have been using current radio altimeter technology forever. Playing devils advocate, Why should they be forced to change a system that obviously has worked for a long time to accommodate Verizon and AT&T?

Because those are the rules. The military owned the rights to the majority of this spectrum for years. The government decided it was worth more to sell it, A4A didn't have the $94 billion to pony up for exclusive rights to use these spectrums across the country. Neither did my company, or any other satellite internet company, so we all have to spend our millions to play within the rules. The major airlines get to follow the rules and pay their millions like everyone else. Its very simple. 

If the airlines want to go play around in the unlicensed bands or man up buy their own bands they're more than welcome to. But, they don't need to. The government already carved out a chunk of spectrum within the C-Band that the Airlines get to continue using FOR FREE(excuse me, at the expense of the taxpayer, nothing is free). Their complaint is that the government sold spectrum too close to that band and it MIGHT interfere with their "just good enough" equipment. The filters on the 5G equipment operate within their licensed bands, these "out of spec" altimeters dont. The altimeters that have been approved must work in a narrower band, within the band, that airlines are approved to use. 

For anyone interested I copied links to the ATC Audio of an Air India 777 Landing at Newark a few years ago after a double RA failure. Several other items failed, ceilings where low and they where also very low on fuel. This would be your "worst case scenario" here. 

 

 

[Dynamo320]

@Corylax18Thanks for the background as I truly have no idea how all that techie stuff works and the bu$iness behind it. If my schedule says go to San Francisco, I go to San Francisco 🤣. 
 

Minutes ago I got an email of pending fleet specific requirements that I will have to comb through when I finish this cigar and find my work iPad.   Seems to be what you are alluding to. Although at least for tomorrow, all 5G related notice to airmen will be complied with until things are official. 

[Duxnutz]

NOTAMs (Notice to Airman - kinda like a memo) that lots of airports now have higher landing minimums temporarily whilst they figure this quagmire out. CAT 1 minima now (basically have to see the runway to land) vs CAT 3 auto land minima. 
 

It IS winter in the states so this should be fun, we did an auto land into Seattle last week. 
 

 

 

15 hours ago, Dynamo320 said:

The A320CEO has not in any way been approved for all operations at all affected airports. I fly both CEO and NEO models. I’ve not had any correspondence regarding differences between the two. The FAA issued an airworthiness directive that pertains to ALL aircraft, except 787 which will have its own set of rules regarding Mel’s among other performance related data. All aircraft would be restricted from utilizing autoland, cat 1 SA, ILS cat2, cat 3, and Rnav rnp. That is pretty far from uninhibited ops. 1500 notams have been issued and are ready to be unleashed. Radio altimeter problems are a whole other ball of wax.  It’s data is integral to so many different systems. I’m an operator, not an engineer or telecommunications expert. 

Airliners have been using current radio altimeter technology forever. Playing devils advocate, Why should they be forced to change a system that obviously has worked for a long time to accommodate Verizon and AT&T?  Understand that I know virtually nothing about that technology!

 

Touche on the Boeing data. I’ve got about 15,000 hours in the Bus and zero in Boeing. 
 

edit: I read the link you provided, but that information has not been communicated with me from company or union at this point in time. I’m off, so I’m just reading from my emails. I’m not out there in the workplace right now. I guess 48 of 88 airports approved but that still leaves 40. Who knows?

We got an OEB today on the big bus I believe (I don’t read emails on days off). Funny that Airbus seem less susceptible to this when we had all those issues with the RA on the A321 - I got COVID displaced to the baby bus for the last year .

 

[Corylax18]

14 hours ago, Dynamo320 said:

@Corylax18Thanks for the background as I truly have no idea how all that techie stuff works and the bu$iness behind it. If my schedule says go to San Francisco, I go to San Francisco 🤣. 
 

Minutes ago I got an email of pending fleet specific requirements that I will have to comb through when I finish this cigar and find my work iPad.   Seems to be what you are alluding to. Although at least for tomorrow, all 5G related notice to airmen will be complied with until things are official. 

 

6 hours ago, Duxnutz said:

We got an OEB today on the big bus I believe (I don’t read emails on days off). Funny that Airbus seem less susceptible to this when we had all those issues with the RA on the A321 - I got COVID displaced to the baby bus for the last year .

 

I have to admit, I'm a bit jealous of you guys! I know it probably wears off a bit over the long term, but it has to be thrilling flying such large complex machines. The adrenaline rush I get from flying a little 172 is hard to describe, I cant imagine what it would be like to land an A320 or something even larger during a storm. I just keep my fingers crossed that the United crew has "channel 9" turned on so I can listen in on all the details. 

[Dynamo320]

6 hours ago, Duxnutz said:

We got an OEB today on the big bus I believe (I don’t read emails on days off). Funny that Airbus seem less susceptible to this when we had all those issues with the RA on the A321 - I got COVID displaced to the baby bus for the last year .

 

Funny because I never read them either on my days off. I’m sitting reserve this week so been following in case. The idea behind bidding reserve was to not work though!

[Digi]

Remember the big scare around planes and 4G?  How about WiFi?  How about Blutetooth?  How about when hand-held GPS devices became popular?  How about old portable CD players?  Seems like a recurring theme, haha.  None of this tech gets "dropped" on the public.  The standards and ratification takes years and the roll-outs often take longer.  There has to be a profit loss tie in for the airline with the 5G roll out - maybe the equipment upgrades?

[Cairo]

20 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

The FAA doesn't care about the FCC's rules, so they haven't mandated a date by which the airlines need to upgrade or retrofit their planes. They should have.

The FAA and FCC should have negotiated this years ago--so I blame .gov and not the airlines.

The problem (imho) is that both agencies have "regulatory capture" by their industries, so they had no interest in taking the "high road" and negotiating a solution for the public good.

[Corylax18]

33 minutes ago, Cairo said:

The FAA and FCC should have negotiated this years ago--so I blame .gov and not the airlines.

The problem (imho) is that both agencies have "regulatory capture" by their industries, so they had no interest in taking the "high road" and negotiating a solution for the public good.

Agreed. But as I mentioned in one of my other posts above, the FCC struggles to manage the system within their own rules. Everything gets done, but its much more difficult and time consuming than it needs to be. Trying to get the FAA and FCC to collaborate would be like herding cats. 

You're right about the "Regulatory capture" Neither agency spends much time listening/learning or negotiating. Most of it is spent telling entities who's existence is 100% beholden to them what to do. Neither agency is particularly interested in being "informed" by the other.  

Its really a bummer to me to see these CEO's Both here in the US and now around the world, flat out lying to people. Regardless of how poorly the government handled things, this was not a surprise. I worked on the First VZW 5G install in Colorado in March of 2017. It was a very early, prototype, design. But real world data has been accumulating Terabytes at time for the last 4 years on real installs. The auctions on these bands happened 2 years ago. If nobody at any of these airlines saw this coming until a couple weeks ago, then they have departments full of people who are genuinely not qualified to hold the positions they do. 

 

[Corylax18]

Remember when 5G was going to crash every plane in the world? 😂

Well, now that the airlines can make money charging you for it, its the next revolution in passenger service! 

As I said above, follow the money. Nobody was ever at risk, all of the above was a pathetic attempted money grab. 

What the below article doesn't mention is that we're still a few years from deployable equipment on any scale and new satellite technologies broadcasting across multiple bands (5G included) will provide much more robust service by that point. But, its progress at least.

https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/5g-european-union-mobile-phones-planes

[Cigar Surgeon]

[wathabanos]

On 1/18/2022 at 5:05 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

Sounds like we have a bunch of "studies" and not a bunch of "evidence". And experts on both sides of the question. 

5G is available in many major US cities. Haven't heard a thing.

As far as the radio altimeters being used in what I assume is the TCAS collision avoidance system wouldn't those incidents occur at relatively high altitudes? Is 5G able to have an impact at 30,000 feet? 

At anything above a FL180 (18,000') here in the states altimeters are set to standard (29.92), however the issue isn't so much at FL300. It's on the approach and landing segments of the flight. Imagine going into Salt Lake City in the soup and having the 5G screw up your altimeter so you think you're 1,000' higher than you are. You'd quickly find out that mountains like to live in the clouds

I'm all for faster speeds, but agree we should err on the side of caution

[El Presidente]

Just landed in DFW. 14 hours no internet as Qantas isn't introducing internet to international flights until next year. 

This was an evening flight (14 hours) so not a major issue. Quite nice actually.  Day flights however it is a pain and I fly emirates/qatar/etihad simply due to net connection.

[Chas.Alpha]

2 hours ago, wathabanos said:

At anything above a FL180 (18,000') here in the states altimeters are set to standard (29.92), however the issue isn't so much at FL300. It's on the approach and landing segments of the flight. Imagine going into Salt Lake City in the soup and having the 5G screw up your altimeter so you think you're 1,000' higher than you are. You'd quickly find out that mountains like to live in the clouds

I'm all for faster speeds, but agree we should err on the side of caution

Oh, you have now been followed on my FOH!!!

CAH: SELI/MELI/COMM 🛩️

[Chas.Alpha]

11 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Just landed in DFW. 14 hours no internet as Qantas isn't introducing internet to international flights until next year. 

This was an evening flight (14 hours) so not a major issue. Quite nice actually.  Day flights however it is a pain and I fly emirates/qatar/etihad simply due to net connection.

You're in the states and you didn't call me?... 🤔

[El Presidente]

5 minutes ago, Chas.Alpha said:

You're in the states and you didn't call me?... 🤔

Jesus, I just landed and about to catch a plane to Miami.

You will make a great wife one day 🤣

[Chas.Alpha]

Just now, El Presidente said:

Jesus, I just landed and about to catch a plane to Miami.

You will make a great wife one day 🤣

🤣🤣🤣

[JohnS]

4 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Jesus, I just landed and about to catch a plane to Miami.

You will make a great wife one day 🤣

Make sure you run to your connecting flight at Dallas Airport. I still have great memories of almost missing my connecting flight this time 4 years ago to Orlando from Dallas.

[Chas.Alpha]

6 minutes ago, JohnS said:

Make sure you run to your connecting flight at Dallas Airport. I still have great memories of almost missing my connecting flight this time 4 years ago to Orlando from Dallas.

Still the worst over here is Chicago O'Hare. Shaped like an "L" and would have to blitz one end to the other in 90 seconds flat! They even made a commercial about it featuring O.J. Simpson. We all know how that ended up... 😳

[wathabanos]

15 minutes ago, JohnS said:

Make sure you run to your connecting flight at Dallas Airport. I still have great memories of almost missing my connecting flight this time 4 years ago to Orlando from Dallas.

Been there done that at DFW, JFK, and the horror that is ORD...I even had the little pewter mil miler card from AA, I flew so much with them...Then one year I missed the $$ for Exec Plat by less than $100 and they knocked me off. Now I fly Delta, when I do fly commercial...

 

33 minutes ago, Chas.Alpha said:

Oh, you have now been followed on my FOH!!!

CAH: SELI/MELI/COMM 🛩️

Ohhh almost all the letters, what no ATP? What happened to that CFI? You let it fall off? (I jest of course and I know, I know...make no assumptions, but CFI for pilots with MELI & COMM is a pretty safe bet, lol). Just a little PPL here, training training and more training. Will be going after IFR/IMC next. Then on to find me a Cherokee 6 or something similar.

[Corylax18]

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

Just landed in DFW. 14 hours no internet as Qantas isn't introducing internet to international flights until next year.

They're waiting on the company I work for to finish our "VS3" constellation. Sorry, haha. We're launching the first of 3 new satellites within the next month, another later in the year and the third early 2024. Each one capable of over 1.5 Terabytes per second of through put. Google Viasat

I'm responsible for building the ground network feeding the satellite that cover the America's, so I'm confident it will work over at least 1/3rd of the planet. We subbed a lot of the construction and fiber buildout to Telstra for our AU network though, so I'm not promising anything! 😂

[Chas.Alpha]

18 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

They're waiting on the company I work for to finish our "VS3" constellation. Sorry, haha. We're launching the first of 3 new satellites within the next month, another later in the year and the third early 2024. Each one capable of over 1.5 Terabytes per second of through put. Google Viasat

I'm responsible for building the ground network feeding the satellite that cover the America's, so I'm confident it will work over at least 1/3rd of the planet. We subbed a lot the construction a fiber buildout to Telstra for our AU network though, so I'm not promising anything! 😂

Rendering my new astrophotography setup absolutely moot. 1 nebula, 16 streaks of light... 😔

 

18 hours ago, wathabanos said:

Been there done that at DFW, JFK, and the horror that is ORD...I even had the little pewter mil miler card from AA, I flew so much with them...Then one year I missed the $$ for Exec Plat by less than $100 and they knocked me off. Now I fly Delta, when I do fly commercial...

 

Ohhh almost all the letters, what no ATP? What happened to that CFI? You let it fall off? (I jest of course and I know, I know...make no assumptions, but CFI for pilots with MELI & COMM is a pretty safe bet, lol). Just a little PPL here, training training and more training. Will be going after IFR/IMC next. Then on to find me a Cherokee 6 or something similar.

No CFI. I am a student's worst nightmare. No ATP. I don't want to hear you whine about how long the flight is or how bumpy it might be. I'm happy and my wife knows better...

[wathabanos]

13 minutes ago, Chas.Alpha said:

No CFI. I am a student's worst nightmare. No ATP. I don't want to hear you whine about how long the flight is or how bumpy it might be. I'm happy and my wife knows better...

Awesome, sounds like you're living the dream! Student's worst nightmare eh? Is that a challenge I hear? lol

[NSXCIGAR]

10 hours ago, wathabanos said:

Imagine going into Salt Lake City in the soup and having the 5G screw up your altimeter so you think you're 1,000' higher than you are. You'd quickly find out that mountains like to live in the clouds

Sure, but you know people are turning their phones on during landings now. Wouldn't the default be to the radar altimeter? The pilots should be calling out at <1000 anyway. Any anomaly in altitude should be detected pretty quickly and I don't think a crash would occur but we certainly would be hearing of reports of this kind of event, or at least the FAA would be very aware and start addressing it. 

[Duxnutz]

41 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Sure, but you know people are turning their phones on during landings now. Wouldn't the default be to the radar altimeter? The pilots should be calling out at <1000 anyway. Any anomaly in altitude should be detected pretty quickly and I don't think a crash would occur but we certainly would be hearing of reports of this kind of event, or at least the FAA would be very aware and start addressing it. 

We cross check the 2500ft auto call out from the Radar Altimeter and pre brief what we would do if things start going awry long before 1000ft. Storm in tea cup. 

[wathabanos]

9 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Sure, but you know people are turning their phones on during landings now. Wouldn't the default be to the radar altimeter? The pilots should be calling out at <1000 anyway. Any anomaly in altitude should be detected pretty quickly and I don't think a crash would occur but we certainly would be hearing of reports of this kind of event, or at least the FAA would be very aware and start addressing it. 

True, lest we forget the 737 max disaster.

8 hours ago, Duxnutz said:

We cross check the 2500ft auto call out from the Radar Altimeter and pre brief what we would do if things start going awry long before 1000ft. Storm in tea cup. 

Yeah, I'm not IFR cert'd yet but wouldn't the cross check not matter if the 5G radio waves were affecting the altimeters? I imagine if it were affecting one, it'd affect the 2nd and even 3rd altimeter, if equipped.