Cigar Journal top 25 2021

[Enduin]

8 minutes ago, Monterey said:

What is interesting is in the past magazine they reviewed the Sir Winston (2017) and gave it a poor score due to all their samples being plugged.  But all Cuban cigars lovers just want to seem to sweep constructions issues under the rug.  Cubans will always suffer in ratings due to poor construction. 

That doesn't sound fair to the community here. Sure there will be some fanboys, as for everything, but for the most part it seems to me that people here are well aware of the QC issues with CCs but choose to accept it because they value flavor over construction. Which is precisely the reason why I switched from NCs to CCs.

[Bijan]

Just now, Monterey said:

Sir Winston is one of the greatest cigars of all time.  And despite my current venting, I'm mostly a Cuban guy.  Probably 70/30.

The sir winston got an 88.  Had they had another one from the box that wasn't plugged, it would have gotten a 95.  And that is the problem!

It's more of a problem with halfwheel's methodology actually. Because in general CA will do separate reviews for each cigar so you'll get the cigar scoring in the 80s on the duds and in the 90s on the good ones, or CA will just withhold the duds most of the time.

Halfwheel will smoke 2 or 3 singles and if any of them are bad/plugged it will tank the overall review. Maybe more "honest" but anyone smoking CCs knows QC is a crapshoot and really what I want from a review is to know what the cigar will smoke like when it isn't plugged.

[Monterey]

7 hours ago, Enduin said:

That doesn't sound fair to the community here. Sure there will be some fanboys, as for everything, but for the most part it seems to me that people here are well aware of the QC issues with CCs but choose to accept it because they value flavor over construction. Which is precisely the reason why I switched from NCs to CCs.

Now were going off on a tangent.  So because people here (including me) accept the construction issue, the various top 25 lists should take that into consideration for their top 25 lists????

 

7 hours ago, Bijan said:

It's more of a problem with halfwheel's methodology actually. Because in general CA will do separate reviews for each cigar so you'll get the cigar scoring in the 80s on the duds and in the 90s on the good ones, or CA will just withhold the duds most of the time.

Halfwheel will smoke 2 or 3 singles and if any of them are bad/plugged it will tank the overall review. Maybe more "honest" but anyone smoking CCs knows QC is a crapshoot and really what I want from a review is to know what the cigar will smoke like when it isn't plugged.

I get that, and it is a valid point.  However, if you are going to pay 600-1000 for a box of cigars, the amount of plugs is something that is important to a lot of people.  RyJ Churchill is a cigar I love, but I find that cigar to be plugged 50% of the time.  So notes of others also seeing the plug, combined with recent price increases plays into my desire to buy my next box. 

[Cigar Surgeon]

27 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Last I remember @Cigar Surgeon said that either 2020 or 2021 was a bad year for NCs as lack of ability to visit the factories meant QC went downhill, or something like that. But that's not an area I know about, so I leave it at that.

2020 was a bad year for NC consistency, 2021 was appalling. We saw construction, draw, and blend discrepancies almost completely across the board from all manufacturers. 

In a year where we're going to publish a top 25 list, the commentary is likely going to be focused on the fact that outside the first 5-7 cigars, we wouldn't actually go out and actively purchase anything else on the list. 

[Bijan]

Just now, Monterey said:

I get that, and it is a valid point.  However, if you are going to pay 600-1000 for a box of cigars, the amount of plugs is something that is important to a lot of people.  RyJ Churchill is a cigar I love, but I find that cigar to be plugged 50% of the time.  So notes of others also seeing the plug, combined with recent price increases plays into my desire to buy my next box. 

Yeah definitely. I'm just saying for me personally I'd like to have those as separate ratings. This is a 96 point cigar, but 1/3 of our samples were plugged or had construction issues. Not this is a 70 point cigar.

Anyways back to the Sir Winston it scored 94 in both 2018 and 2019 in CA reviews. But wasn't on the top 25 in 2019 even though JL2 at 93 and Rio Seco at 92 were. So there's some editiorial decisions going on.

[Monterey]

1 minute ago, Bijan said:

Yeah definitely. I'm just saying for me personally I'd like to have those as separate ratings. This is a 96 point cigar, but 1/3 of our samples were plugged or had construction issues. Not this is a 70 point cigar.

Anyways back to the Sir Winston it scored 94 in both 2018 and 2019 in CA reviews. But wasn't on the top 25 in 2019 even though JL2 at 93 and Rio Seco at 92 were. So there's some editiorial decisions going on.

yeah, no clue on that.  They re-review the cigar for the top 25, they probably got plugged cigars on the 2nd round.  Only thing that I can come up with.

[Edicion]

17 hours ago, Monterey said:

It had to be a new release in the past 12 months.  So that basically removes the possibility of any cubans being on their top 25. 

2020s PL Galanes, Connie 2, LFDC Elegidos should be eligible.

 

[Ford2112]

Gurkha

[coug28]

12 minutes ago, Ford2112 said:

Gurkha

This sums it up nicely. Short & sweet. 
 

Justifying the rationale for such a ‘top 25 list’….on a Cuban cigar forum no less, well, it’s just not a winnable debate. Discuss, certainly…but taking offense to opinions offered doesn’t seem all that necessary. 
 

My .02.  Carry on.

[Monterey]

7 hours ago, Edicion said:

2020s PL Galanes, Connie 2, LFDC Elegidos should be eligible.

 

Perhaps they were.  I had 2 of the 3.  Those 2 do not belong on the list!

 

8 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

2020 was a bad year for NC consistency, 2021 was appalling. We saw construction, draw, and blend discrepancies almost completely across the board from all manufacturers. 

In a year where we're going to publish a top 25 list, the commentary is likely going to be focused on the fact that outside the first 5-7 cigars, we wouldn't actually go out and actively purchase anything else on the list. 

That's unfortunate.  So far, my non-cubans over the past 12 months have been phenomenal.  Not a single construction issue.  But my volume of non-cubans is quite low and tend to be with the higher quality brands.

[Silverstix]

1 hour ago, Monterey said:

As I said previously, CA does a top 25 list of the reviews they did in the past 12 months.  A combination of new and old releases. 

I never thought about it, but how do you think they select the cigars that they are going to review?  Conspiracy type folks could argue that the deck is stacked if they are only selecting XYZ type of cigars to review.  I have no idea how they choose what they're going to review 

[Monterey]

16 minutes ago, Silverstix said:

I never thought about it, but how do you think they select the cigars that they are going to review?  Conspiracy type folks could argue that the deck is stacked if they are only selecting XYZ type of cigars to review.  I have no idea how they choose what they're going to review 

Good point.  Yeah, beyond me how that comes.  Most of the reviews are done in the states, but then the cuban ones are done by a different team in another country??

I'm no expert on the various review process.  I just get frustrated every year with the top 25 summaries.  Every whiny person comes out with the same tired lines "It's rigged!", "It's about the advertisements"  All with no proof.  And based on the above, without reading the rules of how the various places do their lists.  All just because their view is that Cubans are the undisputed champions of the world.  And if their cuban doesn't make the list, then they are going to rip the process.  I just wish the top 25 lists would die, except Rob's    It also assumes that we all have the same tastes.  And there truly is 1 cigar that is the best cigar ever for everyone.  Despite Rob's demonstration that every Cuban is liked by 2/3 and hated by the other 1/3

[Cigar Surgeon]

6 hours ago, Silverstix said:

I never thought about it, but how do you think they select the cigars that they are going to review?  Conspiracy type folks could argue that the deck is stacked if they are only selecting XYZ type of cigars to review.  I have no idea how they choose what they're going to review 

They have an explanation on the site but the short version is they have a buyer who goes to local shops, blind to the reviewers, buys cigars and takes the bands off for the selected review panel.

5 hours ago, Monterey said:

Good point.  Yeah, beyond me how that comes.  Most of the reviews are done in the states, but then the cuban ones are done by a different team in another country??

I'm no expert on the various review process.  I just get frustrated every year with the top 25 summaries.  Every whiny person comes out with the same tired lines "It's rigged!", "It's about the advertisements"  All with no proof.  And based on the above, without reading the rules of how the various places do their lists.  All just because their view is that Cubans are the undisputed champions of the world.  And if their cuban doesn't make the list, then they are going to rip the process.  I just wish the top 25 lists would die, except Rob's    It also assumes that we all have the same tastes.  And there truly is 1 cigar that is the best cigar ever for everyone.  Despite Rob's demonstration that every Cuban is liked by 2/3 and hated by the other 1/3

I mean I'll say that the CA process is predictable when Cigar Coop has a show on guessing the Top 25 CA list and every year they're able to nail not only the brands that are represented, but often the exact cigar and the exact place. Additionally there are brands that will always make the list, despite what they've released in the past 24-36 months.

[Monterey]

11 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

They have an explanation on the site but the short version is they have a buyer who goes to local shops, blind to the reviewers, buys cigars and takes the bands off for the selected review panel. 

 

I think the point that he was making is that  what the buyer is told to buy is where the bias could happen. Maybe the reviews are accurate, but if they don't buy cigars evenly and fairly, the bias happens on day 1.

[Mr. Japan]

Difficult...very difficult.

Prez next time put on the Amateur du Cigar list and we will be all happy.

[Cigar Surgeon]

1 hour ago, Monterey said:

I think the point that he was making is that  what the buyer is told to buy is where the bias could happen. Maybe the reviews are accurate, but if they don't buy cigars evenly and fairly, the bias happens on day 1.

I agree, there's a potential for quite a number of biases in the process. 

• If the local shops that they frequent don't carry X brand, it is nearly impossible for X brand to make the list
• The same is true if the local shop carries X brand but didn't bring in their new release for that year.
• If the buyer has internal biases to how they select cigars, Y brand may not get any representation that year.
• If the buyer has been directed to always pick up Y brand (Padron, Fuente, Alec Bradley, General, Altadis), then there is a high likelihood they will be represented
• If company Z has more releases in a given year than a smaller brand, and they are the Y brand on the selection list, they are almost guaranteed to appear on the Top 25 list
• Each reviewer will have their own internal review and taste biases, regardless of how 'blind' the process is
• Many time cigars released in an earlier time of the year are going to smoke quite differently later in the year. This is true for both CCs and NCs.
• The 100 point scale is deeply as only 10-15 points of the scale is effectively used. 

Edit:

• Missed a big one; Cigars reviewed in Q4, that score highly, have a much higher likelihood of making the Top 25 list than cigars reviewed at the beginning of the year.

[Ford2112]

My take away has always been " tons of cigars nobody has ever heard of ". I also feel like it's a little like the top 100 guitar players of Rolling Stone. I mean. We all know Jimi will be number one. And at number 14 will be Kurt Cobain,who I love,but not for his guitar playing. And at number 14 on the CJ list? You guessed it....

 

 

Gurkha

[Monterey]

1 hour ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

I agree, there's a potential for quite a number of biases in the process. 

• If the local shops that they frequent don't carry X brand, it is nearly impossible for X brand to make the list
• The same is true if the local shop carries X brand but didn't bring in their new release for that year.
• If the buyer has internal biases to how they select cigars, Y brand may not get any representation that year.
• If the buyer has been directed to always pick up Y brand (Padron, Fuente, Alec Bradley, General, Altadis), then there is a high likelihood they will be represented
• If company Z has more releases in a given year than a smaller brand, and they are the Y brand on the selection list, they are almost guaranteed to appear on the Top 25 list
• Each reviewer will have their own internal review and taste biases, regardless of how 'blind' the process is
• Many time cigars released in an earlier time of the year are going to smoke quite differently later in the year. This is true for both CCs and NCs.
• The 100 point scale is deeply as only 10-15 points of the scale is effectively used. 

Edit:

• Missed a big one; Cigars reviewed in Q4, that score highly, have a much higher likelihood of making the Top 25 list than cigars reviewed at the beginning of the year.

One of the better arguments I've seen for question the top 25.

I also think that construction plays a big role against Cubans.  Like my conversation with Bijan above. Similar box of Sir Winston net a 94 and an 88 due to all their samples being plugged.  I think without a doubt that Cubans would be higher up if it wasn't construction related.  Review the notes about cubans, over and over in CA they mention snug draws when they review cubans.  It doesn't make sense to sample a cigar, ignore it because it is tight, then get a great one and claim the cigar is a 95.  Construction and quality have to play a role in the score.

[SpecialK]

I just wish they would make the bands bigger... all the manufacturers are dropping the ball.

 

 

[Cigar Surgeon]

21 minutes ago, Ford2112 said:

My take away has always been " tons of cigars nobody has ever heard of ". I also feel like it's a little like the top 100 guitar players of Rolling Stone. I mean. We all know Jimi will be number one. And at number 14 will be Kurt Cobain,who I love,but not for his guitar playing. And at number 14 on the CJ list? You guessed it....

I think you have to follow the NC release list fairly carefully each year to be on top of it.

Curiously of the CJ top 25 list, I smoked and reviewed 17 / 25 and my site collectively smoked and reviewed 18 / 25. Of the remaining, 1 is on the upcoming review schedule and 1 was skipped because; fuck that (Immenso). 

[coug28]

43 minutes ago, Monterey said:

One of the better arguments I've seen for question the top 25.

I also think that construction plays a big role against Cubans.  Like my conversation with Bijan above. Similar box of Sir Winston net a 94 and an 88 due to all their samples being plugged.  I think without a doubt that Cubans would be higher up if it wasn't construction related.  Review the notes about cubans, over and over in CA they mention snug draws when they review cubans.  It doesn't make sense to sample a cigar, ignore it because it is tight, then get a great one and claim the cigar is a 95.  Construction and quality have to play a role in the score.

Can you see the irony of your outrage regarding the ‘advertising money’ arguments etc. that negate the validity of these top 25 lists…when your contrarian opinion for the NC side of the coin is the exact same thing strictly NC smokers always say about Cuban cigars? “Construction issues”. 
 

Bottom line, it’s just a list of some random dude(s) opinion(s). Only they know the real answers to these questions. Even if they shared them, it still likely would have significant flaws. Getting upset over any of it is pointless. It’s a song as old as time….at least since I’ve been following along. Live and let live…smoke what you like….or choose your own cliché  

[Monterey]

16 minutes ago, coug28 said:

Can you see the irony of your outrage regarding the ‘advertising money’ arguments etc. that negate the validity of these top 25 lists…when your contrarian opinion for the NC side of the coin is the exact same thing strictly NC smokers always say about Cuban cigars? “Construction issues”. 
 

Bottom line, it’s just a list of some random dude(s) opinion(s). Only they know the real answers to these questions. Even if they shared them, it still likely would have significant flaws. Getting upset over any of it is pointless. It’s a song as old as time….at least since I’ve been following along. Live and let live…smoke what you like….or choose your own cliché  

No, I don't.  I regularly deal with constructions issues in Cuban cigars.  It isn't a theory.  I'm not guessing.  I'm regularly having to use my perfect draw on my cuban cigars.  I have never once needed to use the perfect draw on a non-cuban.

[coug28]

5 minutes ago, Monterey said:

No, I don't.  I regularly deal with constructions issues in Cuban cigars.  It isn't a theory.  I'm not guessing.  I'm regularly having to use my perfect draw on my cuban cigars.  I have never once needed to use the perfect draw on a non-cuban.

But your presumption is that Construction issues are why Cubans aren’t included more on these pseudo top-25 lists. That’s speculation at best. An opinion. You don’t know this for fact. It would be impossible, unless you work for them. Hence, the irony. 

[Monterey]

2 hours ago, coug28 said:

But your presumption is that Construction issues are why Cubans aren’t included more on these pseudo top-25 lists. That’s speculation at best. An opinion. You don’t know this for fact. It would be impossible, unless you work for them. Hence, the irony. 

My statement was "I also think that construction plays a big role against Cubans."  Why did I say that?  Because that is what they say when the lower the score for a review.   Here is the exact wording of the review of the Sir Winston (ending only)

" . . . A Tasty cigar, but the firm draw hurt the score"

What happens when the score drops?  It drops off the top 25.  So AGAIN, it isn't a presumption.  They are telling me verbatum that they dropped the rating due to the poor construction.  I did not infer or make any presumption whatsoever.

2 hours ago, coug28 said:

But your presumption is that Construction issues are why Cubans aren’t included more on these pseudo top-25 lists. That’s speculation at best. An opinion. You don’t know this for fact. It would be impossible, unless you work for them. Hence, the irony. 

 

[El Presidente]

I don't know. 

It's their mag and they can do what they like (make rules, ignore rules, change rules). However in terms of the top 25?  if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck.....

In terms of Cuban consistency the two below 2020 polls provide the best insight that I have seen.  Anecdotally it has only improved from there.