Should Employers have the right to request staff be vaccinated?

[Jimmy_jack]

On 8/10/2021 at 8:43 PM, HarveyBoulevard said:

I held off as long a possible...

As an employer in the US (California), the rules I mention may or may not be applicable to other locals.

So, if my employee gets Covid-19, it is presumed to have been contracted at work.  I must PROVE it was not to avoid all the fun stuff that comes next.  He cannot be fired and now gets an ungodly amount of paid leave and/or worker's compensation.  I must now hire someone to do his job while I pay him NOT to do his job.  So, my small business increases its payroll and gets reduced productivity because my employee contracted a mostly preventable illness (last part is opinion

Now, if an employee does not WANT to be vaxxed, I am fine with that.  However, the employment protections should not apply to said employee.  The employer should not bear the burden of the risk of the employee. Risk mitigation pure and simple.  Unfortunately, I live in a place that views what I just expressed as pure unmitigated evil so that won't work for me.

Now, SHOULD I be able to force vax for my employee as term of employment?  Your bet your ass I can.  If he gets sick, I pay for his choice to refuse, not him.

WILL I force vax...No way in hell.  Goes against everything I believe in and I will never force it.

So, my position is that if someone gets vaxxed, they should get the benefits required by law (even if I think it is a bit excessive).  If someone refuses to get vaxxed, I am not paying for their refusal and the government benefits should NOT attach.

Don't get it if you don't want to but don't ask me to pay the price for your freedom of choice.  You can pay that yourself.

How does any of the paying a sick employee work when they are vaccinated and still get sick? The vaccine does not stop a person from contracting the illness. It may make the reaction and symptoms less severe....may...not guaranteed. 

[El Presidente]

3 minutes ago, Jimmy_jack said:

 It may make the reaction and symptoms less severe....may...not guaranteed. 

The numbers are pretty clear in relation to hospitalisation rates of vaccinated and non vaccinated with Covid. They can be found on this thread. 

article form August 10 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-breakthrough-infections-vaccines.html

 

It is the reason Insurance companies here are waiting until the end of the year before ramping up cover cost for the non vaccinated. 

[Jimmy_jack]

5 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

The numbers are pretty clear in relation to hospitalisation rates of vaccinated and non vaccinated with Covid. They can be found on this thread. 

I understand that. What I wish people would make more clear though, or at least acknowledge is this. Masks stop the spread...not vaccinations. Distance helps stop the spread, not vaccinations. The idea that a vaccinated person can be willy-nilly is incorrect. There are plenty of non vaccinated that had Covid and it was a walk in the park. 

More to the point...I don't think an employer should be able to demand a jab. Then again...a person doesn't have to work there.

However...if we all get the vaccine maybe we will all be okay and have much fewer deaths and hospitalizations as a result. OR...we all grow a tail in ten years. A tail would be cool.

[El Presidente]

Just now, Jimmy_jack said:

I understand that. What I wish people would make more clear though, or at least acknowledge is this. Masks stop the spread...not vaccinations. Distance helps stop the spread, not vaccinations. The idea that a vaccinated person can be willy-nilly is incorrect. There are plenty of non vaccinated that had covid and it was a walk in the park. 

Agreed except people are largely herd animals with questionable attention spans even when they have good intentions. 

There are plenty of non vaccinated indeed that found covid a walk in the park. There are plenty that are buried under one as well. 

Vaccination is a significant part of a solution to functioning normally as a society. However so are masks and general hand hygiene. 

[Fosgate]

I got the vax a few month back. Being I earned a Public Health degree I approve the use of vaccines and the hypothesis of science constantly evolving new hypothesis. I also earned a degree in Business Management and understand what it takes to run a business as being an independent myself. 

That said, In my humble opinion the people driving the bus really do not know what they are doing to fight this and are just assessing daily what the best damage control they can take and save face and use people in places that will march to the beat. Don't question, hypothesis cant be changed, shutting up people in the medical field and censoring anyone that asks questions is not the scientific method I was educated in. 

Personally, I feel looking at the overall picture and remembering details as they started coming out, this thing is here to stay no different that any other airborne respiratory infection like Influenza that we have never been able to eradicate. I think Dr Dan Stock in the below video shares the similar stance as me. 

Should an employer be able to require you to be injected with a vaccine to work there? To go to college one must have their shots and vaccines including hepatitis to attend. However, those are tested and approved with the side effects etc known. The Covid vaccine is not. By requiring someone to be injected in an experimental vaccine is clearly in the sights of the Nurenburg Agreement of 1947 addressing Medical Experimentation. Pay attention to the highlighted area in this medical journal. http://www.cirp.org/library/ethics/nuremberg/ . Therefore in accordance to satisfy the "certain basic principles must be observed in order to satisfy moral, ethical and legal concepts:" I feel that if that vaccine does not pass all these requirements and a business or other entity forces someone to get the vaccine, that business or entity should without a doubt be held responsible for any future problems that employee has linked to the vaccine. 

Sure you may think your saving a customer or other employee etc. But what if we discover 10 yrs from now that this unproven vaccine is the next Agent Orange, or the mystery pill soldiers took at the start of Desert Storm believed to have been linked to horrific birth defects and medical problems of returning vets from that campaign, of our generation. I would think fine, if your going to require a vaccine that does not pass muster, your assuming future liability. 

So my answer is both yes and no under conditions. 

 

 

[HarveyBoulevard]

46 minutes ago, Jimmy_jack said:

How does any of the paying a sick employee work when they are vaccinated and still get sick? The vaccine does not stop a person from contracting the illness. It may make the reaction and symptoms less severe....may...not guaranteed. 

In theory (as I am convinced no one actually knows what they are talking about), if he gets the vaccine, the ODDS of my employee getting sick go WAY down.  IF he does get Covid, the severity and length of illness, and thus the length of time I am paying for him not to work, goes WAY down.  So, the ODDS are in my favor if he gets the vaccine.

I say because it is my business that I built and that I fund and that I work to maintain, I get to set the rules.  Despite that, I would never force him to get a vaccine as I would not want someone to do that to me.  What I CAN do is not necessarily what I SHOULD or WILL do.

Your statement that "The vaccine does not stop a person from contracting the illness" is your opinion.  I may hold a different opinion based upon the research I have read.  I don't pretend to correct, I just base my belief on the information I am able to obtain.

[Jimmy_jack]

2 minutes ago, HarveyBoulevard said:

In theory (as I am convinced no one actually knows what they are talking about), if he gets the vaccine, the ODDS of my employee getting sick go WAY down.  IF he does get Covid, the severity and length of illness, and thus the length of time I am paying for him not to work, goes WAY down.  So, the ODDS are in my favor if he gets the vaccine.

I say because it is my business that I built and that I fund and that I work to maintain, I get to set the rules.  Despite that, I would never force him to get a vaccine as I would not want someone to do that to me.  What I CAN do is not necessarily what I SHOULD or WILL do.

Your statement that "The vaccine does not stop a person from contracting the illness" is your opinion.  I may hold a different opinion based upon the research I have read.  I don't pretend to correct, I just base my belief on the information I am able to obtain.

Pretty sure there is evidence in "breakthrough" cases. I dont have an opinion as I am not a medical professional or statistician. I just know what I am reading. 

[HarveyBoulevard]

Just now, Jimmy_jack said:

Pretty sure there is evidence in "breakthrough" cases. I dont have an opinion as I am not a medical professional or statistician. I just know what I am reading. 

I 100% agree there are breakthrough cases.  That is a fact.  How many cases have been avoided by a vaccine I do not know (if any), but I'd lay odds it is a lot.  So, if someone does all they can (vaccine, mask, hygiene), they should be afforded employment protections.  If someone refuses to anything to help the situation, well, I am not paying for their choices.

[Bijan]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy_jack said:

Pretty sure there is evidence in "breakthrough" cases. I dont have an opinion as I am not a medical professional or statistician. I just know what I am reading. 

Yes. Odds of getting covid go down after the vaccine. They are not 0 but they are less than without a vaccine.

It's like a bulletproof vest. Might as well say don't wear one in a firefight because they don't protect against headshots.

[Jimmy_jack]

Bijan and Harvey. Pretty sure we are saying/thinking the same way. My only argument is that vaccine or not…masks are the most important. That’s all. 

[BrightonCorgi]

As @Fosgate noted; these are still experimental vaccines and totally agree with where he is coming from.  Vaccines that have been around for a while; that is different.

Once they have worldwide approval; the uptick will accelerate.  It would be easier to compel individuals at that point too.

[Chibearsv]

News seen this morning reported that McDonalds Headquarters in Chicago was requiring all employees in the corporate office to be vaccinated.  The Governor of Illinois was seen applauding this decision so it looks like government will not take a stand on mandatory vaccines but is happily relying on individual businesses to make that hard decision.  I think if the ultimate goal is to get maximum people vaccinated, the businesses are going to have to mandate that their customers are vaccinated and not just their employees.

McDonald’s will require US office employees get the COVID-19 vaccine

By LAUREN ZUMBACH

CHICAGO TRIBUNE |

AUG 11, 2021 AT 5:42 PM

McDonald’s will require all of its U.S. office employees to get the COVID-19 vaccine, joining the growing list of employers requiring that at least some workers get the shots.The Chicago-based fast-food chain is also delaying its official office reopening from Sept. 7 to Oct. 11 to give employees more time to get fully vaccinated, according to an internal note to employees.

In the note, McDonald’s Chief People Officer Heidi Capozzi said the increase in COVID-19 infections caused by new variants “has made many of us uneasy.”

The McDonald's global headquarters in the Chicago's West Loop in 2019. (Zbigniew Bzdak / Chicago Tribune)

“Since the Town Hall, we’ve heard from many of you that you would feel more comfortable returning to the office if you had more certainty your colleagues were vaccinated,” Capozzi said in the note. “We are also being asked by state and local governments to require vaccinations for corporate employees because getting more of the population vaccinated reduces our own chances of being infected and contributes to community protection.”

Companies had been hesitant to require employees to get vaccines earlier in the pandemic, but that’s started to change as COVID-19 variants have spread and case numbers have grown. Amtrak also announced plans on Wednesday to require all employees and contractors to receive the COVID-19 vaccine. Last week, Chicago-based United Airlines said it would require all U.S.-based employees get the COVID-19 vaccine, joining companies including Google, Microsoft, Facebook and Tyson Foods.

The Chicagoland Chamber of Commerce issued a statement encouraging employers to mandate vaccines.

“Businesses are in a unique position to help change the direction of the pandemic, and we encourage businesses of all sizes and industries to require vaccinations so we can protect ourselves, those around us, and continue on our path to economic recovery,” said Jack Lavin, president and CEO of the Chicagoland Chamber of Commerce.

McDonald’s decision to mandate the vaccine was first reported by The Wall Street Journal.

The requirement will apply to suppliers and contractors visiting McDonald’s Chicago headquarters or other U.S. offices, but McDonald’s will not mandate vaccines for employees at restaurants it owns, or franchised restaurants, according to the note to employees.

Employees who are already fully vaccinated are encouraged to still return to the office Sept. 7.

Masks are currently required in offices for all employees, regardless of vaccination status, except while workers are eating, drinking or alone in an enclosed room. The company hopes requiring vaccinations will let it go back to making masks optional in the future, according to the note.

Capozzi said the company will provide more information on requesting an exemption for a medical or religious reason in the coming weeks.

[Jimmy_jack]

Pretty sure Vaccine Passports are coming. Voluntary at first no doubt. Won’t be required but certainly you can be denied access if you don’t present one. 

[CommanderJWBond]

Pretty sure Vaccine Passports are coming. Voluntary at first no doubt. Won’t be required but certainly you can be denied access if you don’t present one. 

Very true. I got vaccinated, and maybe a 1/4 of my rationale is I knew eventually it would be required for things I like and want to do. Especially traveling internationally.

[Cairo]

49 minutes ago, clint said:

McDonalds mandating medical treatment....you can't make this stuff up,  LMAO!

Many decades ago I spent a year of my life as a night manager at Arby's (junk fast food roast beef).

I lost twenty pounds doing that job--all food made me sick after watching what was done there...

[Trapper99]

1 hour ago, Chibearsv said:

News seen this morning reported that McDonalds Headquarters in Chicago was requiring all employees in the corporate office to be vaccinated.  The Governor of Illinois was seen applauding this decision so it looks like government will not take a stand on mandatory vaccines but is happily relying on individual businesses to make that hard decision.  I think if the ultimate goal is to get maximum people vaccinated, the businesses are going to have to mandate that their customers are vaccinated and not just their employees.

 

This is my main problem with the mandates. The gov leaning on business to enforce what they can't do. Yesterday Fauci said, "screw you freedom, yes I think businesses should mandate vaccines". He is a gov official, and in the same interview he said "yes, I don't believe we will see a national mandate" (because they can't). To me that is a problem and a terrible precedent having businesses act as agents of the gov to enforce something the gov can't do, but under the cover "it's private business". 

I wouldn't say my position is anti-vax. Yes, at this time I have chosen that the vax is not for, and my wife chose the same, but that is subject to change as the situation changes. Who knows, maybe covid mutates to become as deadly in the young as the old. Maybe after a few years, more long term data is out on everything. But coercion, mandates, bribes, and "screw your freedom" is not the way. If an elderly person asked me if i should get the vax or not, I'd say the stats say you have a pretty good risk of dying from covid. I wouldn't say I'm anti-vax, but I am anti-mandate. I know many people who have had the vax, that are also anti-mandate.

In disagreements like this, I try and figure out what is the fundamental difference that causes there to be a different point of view. Like in Inception where they try to strip down the idea to it's simplist form, what is that simplist form here? Both sides can spout everything from talking points, experiences, stats, and even agreed upon facts, but there is a fundamental difference that is hard to bridge. Best I can come up with on this topic is a difference on some level of "self government" v "community duty". I'm sure others see it a different way as I am looking at it from one POV. I'd welcome any other views on what one thinks the fundamental difference is... 

[Vetteman]

The situation has to be pretty disappointing to the thousands of healthcare workers throughout the world who risked their lives, working incredible hours under heartbreaking conditions to get us to the point of having a vaccine, only to have a substantial percentage refuse it. Not to mention the poor countries in the world who would love to have vaccines but can’t get them. The danger is that as the virus continues to spread it will continue to mutate. One of these mutations may prove impervious to the vaccine putting humanity back at square one. There’s also the possibility that a mutation will “screw up” and become extremely lethal.

[HarveyBoulevard]

16 minutes ago, Vetteman said:

The situation has to be pretty disappointing to the thousands of healthcare workers throughout the world who risked their lives, working incredible hours under heartbreaking conditions to get us to the point of having a vaccine, only to have a substantial percentage refuse it. Not to mention the poor countries in the world who would love to have vaccines but can’t get them. The danger is that as the virus continues to spread it will continue to mutate. One of these mutations may prove impervious to the vaccine putting humanity back at square one. There’s also the possibility that a mutation will “screw up” and become extremely lethal.

One of the things I find most strange in my location is the number of doctors and nurses that refuse to get it and tell their friends it is unnecessary. I would bet I know a good 30 or 40 nurses and at least 10 physicians who have not gotten it and tell others they don’t need to get it. These are ER doctors and pediatricians and internal medicine specialists.

Obviously I did not listen to them as I got vaccinated but I do find it odd.

[Fosgate]

Whatever happens we have to get back to working full fledged soon and get kids back in school. I have not lost any family or friends to covid yet but I've lost 4 friends to suicide since this thing started. One shot himself within 30 minutes of my brother dropping him off from hunting and after my brother dropped his brother off he came back out to the first ones house and found his blood trail where he shot himself in the head with a deer rifle and lived long enough to crawl back to the house. His twin brother committed suicide 6 months later. Both left a wife and traumatized young son behind them. I lost two more single friends, one male and one female as well. All very tragic and all caused by the added stress in their lives over the last 18months. 

[Hammer Smokin']

31 minutes ago, HarveyBoulevard said:

One of the things I find most strange in my location is the number of doctors and nurses that refuse to get it and tell their friends it is unnecessary. I would bet I know a good 30 or 40 nurses and at least 10 physicians who have not gotten it and tell others they don’t need to get it. These are ER doctors and pediatricians and internal medicine specialists.

Obviously I did not listen to them as I got vaccinated but I do find it odd.

 

Nurses, yes.

Doctors, very rare.

[Chibearsv]

1 hour ago, Trapper99 said:

This is my main problem with the mandates. The gov leaning on business to enforce what they can't do. Yesterday Fauci said, "screw you freedom, yes I think businesses should mandate vaccines". He is a gov official, and in the same interview he said "yes, I don't believe we will see a national mandate" (because they can't). To me that is a problem and a terrible precedent having businesses act as agents of the gov to enforce something the gov can't do, but under the cover "it's private business". 

I wouldn't say my position is anti-vax. Yes, at this time I have chosen that the vax is not for, and my wife chose the same, but that is subject to change as the situation changes. Who knows, maybe covid mutates to become as deadly in the young as the old. Maybe after a few years, more long term data is out on everything. But coercion, mandates, bribes, and "screw your freedom" is not the way. If an elderly person asked me if i should get the vax or not, I'd say the stats say you have a pretty good risk of dying from covid. I wouldn't say I'm anti-vax, but I am anti-mandate. I know many people who have had the vax, that are also anti-mandate.

In disagreements like this, I try and figure out what is the fundamental difference that causes there to be a different point of view. Like in Inception where they try to strip down the idea to it's simplist form, what is that simplist form here? Both sides can spout everything from talking points, experiences, stats, and even agreed upon facts, but there is a fundamental difference that is hard to bridge. Best I can come up with on this topic is a difference on some level of "self government" v "community duty". I'm sure others see it a different way as I am looking at it from one POV. I'd welcome any other views on what one thinks the fundamental difference is... 

I agree with much of what you say here. Sadly, this is a time where governance is required, and instead, these governmental prima donnas pass on tough decision making so they don’t risk losing an election and the only job they could keep.  I’m not usually in favor of the government mandating anything but this is either a legitimate emergency that needs to be addressed and dealt with in strictest terms or it’s not. I’d start by listening to healthcare workers and as we’ve heard here, they’re limit up on tolerating the management of this disease by measuring maximum healthcare labor and facility capacities.  This thing will never go away unless mandates happen. Can we live with that?  

[riderpride]

1 hour ago, Fosgate said:

Whatever happens we have to get back to working full fledged soon and get kids back in school. I have not lost any family or friends to covid yet but I've lost 4 friends to suicide since this thing started. One shot himself within 30 minutes of my brother dropping him off from hunting and after my brother dropped his brother off he came back out to the first ones house and found his blood trail where he shot himself in the head with a deer rifle and lived long enough to crawl back to the house. His twin brother committed suicide 6 months later. Both left a wife and traumatized young son behind them. I lost two more single friends, one male and one female as well. All very tragic and all caused by the added stress in their lives over the last 18months. 

I can't even imagine how difficult that must be Fos.

I have one that 'opted out' in Nov, one died from the 'vid over Christmas (no one was able to visit including his long-term gf and his daughter) and a buddy dealing with brain cancer that contracted it and is still ticking. The only places he was were at home and the cancer center itself.

A return to normal can't come soon enough  - we're just not programmed to be isolated and it's certainly taking it's toll.

[Yellot00tr]

Employers should have the right to ask. Employees should have the right to refuse. Employers can then try to replace those employees.

Google, Facebook, Citigroup, Tyson, UAL among those mandating vaccines. Once there is full FDA approval, it’ll become more common.

[Cigar Surgeon]

13 hours ago, HarveyBoulevard said:

One of the things I find most strange in my location is the number of doctors and nurses that refuse to get it and tell their friends it is unnecessary. I would bet I know a good 30 or 40 nurses and at least 10 physicians who have not gotten it and tell others they don’t need to get it. These are ER doctors and pediatricians and internal medicine specialists.

Obviously I did not listen to them as I got vaccinated but I do find it odd.

There are pilots that at flat earthers. Let that sink in.

[Cigar Surgeon]

It looks like whatever your feelings are on the matter, businesses are moving forward with the requirement and 'vaccine passports' have arrived.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/13/us/new-orleans-vaccination-proof/index.html

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-vaccine-passport-1.6136031