Should Employers have the right to request staff be vaccinated?

[Ginseng]

It has been truly eye-opening for me to witness the discussion in this thread. It's one thing to read about the various rationales in support of or opposition to the individual choice or decision to vaccinate. It's another thing altogether to see it unfold in an actual person's words and line of reasoning. For sure, it's difficult trying to see common ground.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Ginseng
"choice" to "choice or decision" as these are two different concepts

[Puros Y Vino]

Just now, Grateful13 said:

 

Yeah man that’s a totally legit, reasonable, and comparable situation, you don’t sound absolutely insane at all.  On the other hand, while I will ignore your US Politics posting, it seems like my post did score a direct hit with you!

The allegory couldn't be any simpler or clearer. And that it went right over your head is sad, but revealing. 

Let me put it another way.

“Your liberty to swing your fist ends just where my nose begins.”

[Ciscojohansson]

1 minute ago, CommanderJWBond said:

This would be true if governments mandated the vaccine, and that would not be good. But it in the context of private businesses it really doesn’t apply. Businesses are not mandated to hire or retain any of their employees at any time.

If the public sector demands the vaccine for travel etc depending on country and if the private sector demands it for work and patronizing, you cannot say the vaccine is not mandatory. To be able to function as before the pandemic you are forced to take the vaccine. The definition of the totalitarian state is that all of life becomes politics. This is just one step in that direction in what used to be the free west. Good or bad, that is a reality. Look at what you could say in comments 10-15 years ago, today you could be arrested in some countries for being rude in your internet comments.  

[Cigar Surgeon]

1 minute ago, Ginseng said:

It has been truly eye-opening for me to witness the discussion in this thread. It's one thing to read about the various rationales in support of or opposition to the individual choice to vaccinate. It's another thing altogether to see it unfold in an actual person's words and line of reasoning. For sure, it's difficult trying to see common ground.

None of it surprises me. These are the same conversations I've been having since February of 2020. Despite going on three live webshows and accurately predicting the infection numbers and deaths, people who refused to believe it never came around.

For the most part now I don't bother engaging because I don't believe people engaging in the discussion are interested in broadening their understanding, they're only interested in being right. 

[Grateful13]

8 minutes ago, Puros Y Vino said:

 

“Your liberty to swing your fist ends just where my nose begins.”

 

Thats a great way to put it. I am glad we agree mandates are terrible. After all, your liberty to swing your needle ends at my nose and skin. 

Is that what you’re trying to say? Or are you just saying it doesn’t apply when you are swinging or decide that you are right and that everyone else has to do what you think?

Or are you saying someone unvaxxed is putting you at risk? How so? Does the vaccine work or does it not?

[rcarlson]

24 minutes ago, Puros Y Vino said:

 I think you just described the anti-mask/vax crowd with that bit. 🤔

• Cult activity is putting on a red cap and following someone who had a chance to make it better but made it worse. 
• A cult has to mandate anti-mask laws while their states are drowning in new COVID-19 cases.
• A cult goes out to protest businesses trying to keep their staff and patrons safe.

This reads like an argument for being that guy in London who leaves his lights on during the air raids.  While a bomb may not hit his house, his neighbors who did their part, pay the price.  But hey, it's his right to read at night right?

 

 

This logic is reversible.  

[Puros Y Vino]

1 minute ago, Grateful13 said:

 

Thats a great way to put it. I am glad we agree mandates are terrible. After all, your liberty to swing your needle ends at my nose and skin. 

Is that what you’re trying to say? Or are you just saying it doesn’t apply when you are swinging decide that you are right and that everyone else has to do what you think?

It actually means that what you think is your "freedom" actually does harm to your neighbour.  So being the guy who doesnt turns off his lights when the bombers are coming, or doesn't take a shot or even put on a damn mask because "my rights".  There are consequences to your actions and in-actions whether or not you choose to recognize them.  The guy whose house got hit, lost his wife and kids might just remember you were the dick with your lights on and may be heading over to your house with a crowbar for a discussion.  Sure, that's a bit dramatic but we are talking life and death.  Even though COVID may not affect you, you can sure carry it. And if you have a cavalier attitude towards your fellow citizen along the lines of IDGAF then you're not fit to live in society. 

[Ciscojohansson]

6 minutes ago, Ginseng said:

It has been truly eye-opening for me to witness the discussion in this thread. It's one thing to read about the various rationales in support of or opposition to the individual choice to vaccinate. It's another thing altogether to see it unfold in an actual person's words and line of reasoning. For sure, it's difficult trying to see common ground.

You put your finger on the main thing. The common ground is hard to see and to be honest I think it is going. We live in the afterglow of Christianity, when the glow dies out there will be no great idea or thought that holds us together.

[DanWil84]

This would be true if governments mandated the vaccine, and that would not be good. But it in the context of private businesses it really doesn’t apply. Businesses are not mandated to hire or retain any of their employees at any time.

And in the mean time government has a big say in what businesses can or can't do. There is nothing like "private" anymore. Looking at the companies that decided to make getting vaccinated a demand for even keeping your job there neck deep into what government wants from them and needs them for.

My country says it won't, but when covid hit they also said they wanted to spread the virus for herd immunity. In the meantime we had 3 waves, lockdowns, curfew, masks, testing before visiting a concert (they gave 1 billion dollars to 1 company to organize this, smells baaaaaad) and what not. Vaccins being pushed. If there something I don't like its stuff getting stuffed in my throat not being able to spit it out, just swallow it and attaboy! I got the vaccin with the greatest of hesitation, but also thought about the consequences of not getting it and it just outweight it a tiny bit on the scale vs being able to control what I put in my body out of free choice.

Funny thing is especially American companies go far with their demands. Alphabet/Google has a big data centre here in the Netherlands. They demand A fully vaccination B a test 72 hours prior to the visit C a test before entering the building. So if they have a large scale problem they want to solve they will have to wait 5 days before a engineer can show up as no company will ask all their service ppl to do the above mentioned.

Its bonkers. Having policy not trusting a vaccin which is greatly pushed means it just doesn't work.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn VOG-L29 met Tapatalk

[Grateful13]

Just now, Puros Y Vino said:

It actually means that what you think is your "freedom" actually does harm to your neighbour.  So being the guy who doesnt turns off his lights when the bombers are coming, or doesn't take a shot or even put on a damn mask because "my rights".  There are consequences to your actions and in-actions whether or not you choose to recognize them.  The guy whose house got hit, lost his wife and kids might just remember you were the dick with your lights on and may be heading over to your house with a crowbar for a discussion.  Sure, that's a bit dramatic but we are talking life and death.  Even though COVID may not affect you, you can sure carry it. And if you have a cavalier attitude towards your fellow citizen along the lines of IDGAF then you're not fit to live in society. 

Again, your comparison is totally legit, true, and doesn’t make you sound absolutely insane at all. 🙄

How is someone who is not vaxxed a risk to vaccinated people if the vaccine works?  Why won’t you address that?  Why are Iceland and Israel having huge surges despite near universal vaccination? Why do we need booster shots?  Why are all the goal posts shifting?

its amazing how thin skinned these little authoritarians and covid truthers are when they face even basic questions about why the goal posts have suddenly shifted!

 

[Hammer Smokin']

I see the yanks have taken over the discussion. 

 

 

[RedLantern]

25 minutes ago, Grateful13 said:

Your hate and intolerance are duly noted. 

 

1 minute ago, Grateful13 said:

its amazing how thin skinned these little authoritarians and covid truthers are when they face even basic questions about why the goal posts have suddenly shifted!

 

QFI

[Cigar Surgeon]

2 minutes ago, Grateful13 said:

Again, your comparison is totally legit, true, and doesn’t make you sound absolutely insane at all. 🙄

How is someone who is not vaxxed a risk to vaccinated people if the vaccine works?  Why won’t you address that?  Why are Iceland and Israel having huge surges despite near universal vaccination? Why do we need booster shots?  Why are all the goal posts shifting?

Epidemiology 101 of pandemics is that in order for a pandemic to end, sufficient resistance must be in place in the world population. Since that resistance is only coming in the form of a vaccine we can either move forward with people getting vaccinated or we can continue to live in this half-in half-out environment and continue the pandemic indefinitely.

All of that doesn't even touch the fact that the longer the virus sits in unvaccinated population and mutates, the greater the potential for a mutation that has a greater infection rate, higher mortality, or both.

All of this information is available on the Internet with a minimal amount of searching.

5 minutes ago, Grateful13 said:

its amazing how thin skinned these little authoritarians and covid truthers are when they face even basic questions about why the goal posts have suddenly shifted!

I don't think the name calling and labelling is productive. I don't see anyone doing that to you. 

[Nino]

52 minutes ago, Grateful13 said:

And these people actually believe they are being heroic by advocating for this. They really think sitting on their ass and getting a vaccine makes them some kind of hero.

Nope, I don't think it makes me or the people getting the jab heroes.

Just less dead than the ones sitting on their asses and not giving a flying f##ck about the people they might infect and kill, hope it is only themselves but they have parents, grandparents etc.

This discussion would not take place in any Asian society - and I do not mean China - as the WE is stronger than the ME there.

[Puros Y Vino]

Just now, Grateful13 said:

Again, your comparison is totally legit, true, and doesn’t make you sound absolutely insane at all. 🙄

How is someone who is not vaxxed a risk to vaccinated people if the vaccine works?  Why won’t you address that?  Why are Iceland and Israel having huge surges despite near universal vaccination? Why do we need booster shots?  Why are all the goal posts shifting?

its amazing how thin skinned these little authoritarians and covid truthers are when they face even basic questions about why the goal posts have suddenly shifted!

 

Ah yes, the "my brain is devoid of logic so I'll use a personal attack vs understanding and properly rebutting the argument" tactic.  🙄

 

"Perfect is the enemy of good".  Ever hear that?  You want to deal in absolutes but they don't exist. You want a black and white world; doesn't exist either.  The belief that a vaccine is "perfect" and 100% effective doesn't exist.  The ones that are out there are meant to curb the spread of the virus over time.  At first, things like masks, social distancing were the measures. Again, not perfect but the best we had at the time to reduce the harm.  A year later vaccines appeared and have started to do their thing. But as long as a large part of the population resists or in some cases, gov'ts are too slow to roll out, occurs, the virus mutates, the efficacy of the vaccine wanes.  And yes, "booster" shots may be needed.  Why is this happening?  Simple math.  The numbers to reach herd immunity are not there because too many people have chosen to politicize a Pandemic vs giving a damn about doing their part and helping their fellow neighbour.  The surges are easy to explain. Too many selfish idiots not doing even their slightest part to help their fellow citizens get over it.  The longer this lingers on, the more complex and tough the virus becomes, the more booster shots or updated vaccines will be needed.  Or perhaps the holdouts will get Darwin'd out?  Time shall tell.

[CommanderJWBond]

I see the yanks have taken over the discussion. 
 
 

I’m sure it is a sensitive topic for a lot of people. But here in the US, it is on the same level of politics. Diametrically opposed and anger fueled. I have witnessed this very discussion in my own family and it was awful. I just sit back and look forward to 24:24 each day.

[Puros Y Vino]

13 minutes ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

I see the yanks have taken over the discussion.

Yank this!!  😁

It's not just them. The same rhetoric is also growing on our side of the border.  Anti maskers/vaxxers are getting in people's faces on patios while people are trying to enjoy businesses reopening.  They want "rights" respected but only theirs. 

[Hammer Smokin']

1 minute ago, Puros Y Vino said:

Yank this!!  😁

It's not just them. The same rhetoric is also growing on our side of the border.  Anti maskers/vaxxers are getting in people's faces on patios while people are trying to enjoy businesses reopening.  They want "rights" respected but only theirs. 

yah, I was just referring to this thread. 

First 3 pages was adult. Last few pages have turned to what I expected. 

[Nino]

5 hours ago, Puros Y Vino said:

 And yes, "booster" shots may be needed.  Why is this happening?  Simple math.  The numbers to reach herd immunity are not there because too many people have chosen to politicize a Pandemic vs giving a damn about doing their part and helping their fellow neighbour.  The surges are easy to explain. Too many selfish idiots not doing even their slightest part to help their fellow citizens get over it.  The longer this lingers on, the more complex and tough the virus becomes, the more booster shots or updated vaccines will be needed.  Or perhaps the holdouts will get Darwin'd out?  Time shall tell.

I just read a BBC report today that "herd immunity" will not be reached due to the Delta variant....

The more idiots the more variants the more ....

Hope Saint Darwin helps out.

 

5 hours ago, Grateful13 said:

It seems to be working well in places like Sweden currently.  That’s why the high risk should minimize their risk and the young and healthy should live life.

That’s all I’ll have to say on this thread. 

You just declared yourself to be totally falsely informed by using Sweden as a model.

Just shows a BIG Atlantic cultural & information divide, no problem.

Gives me the perfect excuse to put you on my ignore list 🙂

Cheers

[rjake100]

7 minutes ago, Grateful13 said:

That’s all I’ll have to say on this thread. 

🎵Nothing left to do but smile smile smile🎵

[Cigar Surgeon]

3 minutes ago, Grateful13 said:

That’s simply not true and you know it. There is also natural immunity from infection, which in most people leads to minor symptoms if not asymptomatic.  It seems to be working well in places like Sweden currently.  That’s why the high risk should minimize their risk and the young and healthy should live life.

Uh .. no. This is why people are getting infected multiple times, because new variants come out and start the COVID party all over again. It's a constantly evolving virus.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210714/e2809cHerd-immunitye2809d-not-responsible-for-Swedene28099s-control-of-COVID-19-say-researchers.aspx

6 minutes ago, Grateful13 said:

Its also a great example of a false choice, a favorite tactic of the little authoritarians - take this medicine or we will lock you down, be afraid!  And make sure you watch the 24/7 propaganda on TV in case you start questioning the fear narrative. We can’t have people asking questions now.   

Your fear mongering about unvaxxed causing covid mutations here is without any evidence. There are also leaky vaccines that lead to new varieties. Similar to how anti biotic resistant bacteria developed. It could be natural evolution. Blaming mutations on “unvaccinated” is simply without real evidence - but it’s a good propaganda point!

If you don't believe COVID mutations are happening in unvaccinated populations, despite the mountain of available evidence for you to read, I'm certainly not going to be able to convince you. The same is true of 'leaky' vaccines. Breakthrough infections are extremely rare. 

8 minutes ago, Grateful13 said:

Of course you don’t see a problem with the name calling - you agree with them. 

That’s all I’ll have to say on this thread. 

I have a problem with name calling because it's unproductive and only creates a hostile, defensive environment. 

[Hammer Smokin']

1 minute ago, rjake100 said:

🎵Nothing left to do but smile smile smile🎵

Once and a while you get shown the light, 

In the strangest of places if you look at it right.

 

But when you are blind, it can be tough to see. 

 

[Nino]

Sweden ... the "role model country" that did it all wrong, according to the Lancet, the most prestigious medical publication :

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00885-0/fulltext

In December, 2020, we wrote about the Swedish response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

¹

Our hope was that our Comment, together with hundreds of other fact-based articles, would gain the attention of the Swedish Public Health Agency (Folkhälsomyndigheten [FHM]), that they would revisit and change the national strategy that they had designed so that it would be more aligned with global best practice, and that the political decision makers would act on it. They did not. Since then, the FHM has recorded more than 5600 deaths from COVID-19 in Sweden, and cases and deaths continue to rise as we face the third wave without any widespread sense of gravity or urgency.

The debate among critics of the Swedish national approach to the pandemic has been consistent since March, 2020: be strategic, test and trace more, follow the growing evidence base and recommend the use of face masks, and enforce regulations about physical distancing and ventilation, especially in schools if they are open. Some critics have advocated for more government-led legal interventions such as reinforcing quarantine or lockdown. It has been a call for timely implementation of basic principles of pandemic prevention and control to contain the spread and flatten the curves of hospitalisations, deaths, and chronic illness.

 

Instead of following evolving evidence, the FHM has doubled down and defended its approach without reconsidering the assumptions on which the failed national approach is based. It has downplayed the roles of asymptomatic spread, aerosol transmission, children as potential source of infection, and the use of face masks. It has maintained an approach that mainly builds on recommendations to take voluntary actions, guided (in our view) more by public opinion than by sound public health policy. The media has played a crucial role in this pandemic response, mostly lacking in investigative journalism and failing to question or hold the public health agency accountable, with some exceptions.

²

Dagens Nyheter, a major newspaper, recently exposed

³

Sweden's large inequities in COVID-19 deaths across income, education, and origin of birth—data that should have informed the national strategy from its inception.

As of April 16, 2021, more than 13 700 people have died from COVID-19 in Sweden. The country has one of the highest infection rates in western Europe according to Our World in Data COVID-19 statistics, with 606 new infections per million per day, while its neighbours Denmark, Finland, and Norway reported 115, 62, and 112 new infections per million per day, respectively (April 15, 2021). New and more infective and deadly variants have taken over, and by April 15, 2021, the UK SARS-Cov-2 variant was supected to have caused 75–100% of all new cases in all regions. This indicates more rapid spread, more deaths, and that more young people will be affected, with intensive care units already at full capacity in some regions.

⁴

While other countries are closing down in response to this new surge in cases, Sweden is opening up—high schools were opened on April 1, 2021. To continue on the same trajectory in the face of current trends, without timely action by agency and government leadership, raises concerns about governance and accountability, and ultimately about fundamental ethics and values.

 

[Grateful13]

1 hour ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

None of it surprises me. These are the same conversations I've been having since February of 2020. Despite going on three live webshows and accurately predicting the infection numbers and deaths, people who refused to believe it never came around.

For the most part now I don't bother engaging because I don't believe people engaging in the discussion are interested in broadening their understanding, they're only interested in being right. 

Do you have any self awareness at all?  One sentence you tell us how right you are about everything, then in the very next sentence you say debate is pointless because people are "only interested in being right"

😭

Okay that's really it this time LOL

[Nino]

Hope it is ...

The view from this side of the pond - if you can find a vein get it in there ... love it.

NSFW in the other side of the prudish pond ... 🙂