Should Employers have the right to request staff be vaccinated?

[Ryan]

It's in the interest of most, if not all employers to mandate vaccinations.

There are some people who cannot receive a vaccine due to medical conditions, allergies, immune system issues etc. and those people should get a pass, but even that may change as status of the virus changes, for example how new variants behave with vaccines, availability of boosters, degree of illness caused by new variants. All kinds of things that are coming to light now or will in the future.

Vaccinated people can get Covid and can pass it on, but are less likely to, with a lower viral load. But even with this, new information is coming out as the data comes in and as the virus evolves. What has been shown, conclusively, is that vaccinated people, so far, are much less likely to get sick, require hospitalisation or die from Covid.

After 100s of millions of shots given around the world to every demographic over age 12, and studies on the under-12s have started, there is no denying that the risk from getting the disease is far, far higher than the risk from any vaccine. Yet there are still those who say that more people die from the vaccine than from Covid. Even the blood clotting risk has already dropped, from already miniscule, to almost zero as doctors have discovered how to treat it.

To get back to the employer mandate. Government paid Covid assistance to employers exists in many western countries, that will be going away soon as the money dries up. If I have a restaurant with 10 staff in a kitchen who have to work closely indoors, I'd want them vaccinated for the sake of the business and the jobs and income of the staff. Same with a bar, store, office or any indoor working environment. If I had a farm or construction site with workers spread out and not sharing indoor spaces or transport, rules could be different. But for the sake of simplicity and closing loop-holes and excuses, mandate vaccines for all staff who, at any time, work in the same location as one or more other staff-member. There are no excuses anymore. Just conspiracy theories and biased selections of specific facts or notions about the disease and the vaccines.

The only excuses left sound very, very similar to the "Well having a seat-belt on in a crash sometimes kills people" BS. Yes that's true, possibly, but it's still a BS excuse as the proven benefits far outweigh the risk.

I've had both my kids vaccinated as soon as they were eligible, actually a bit sooner than they were officially eligible. I want them fully vaccinated before going back to school. It's a no-brainer, I want them to be healthy.

 

 

 

 

 

[Trapper99]

49 minutes ago, Nino said:

I'd always choose the one that has vaccinated staff/crews, in this case United, even paying more for the airfare.

What is the sense in me being double vaccinated if I have to share the risk of unvaccinated staff and/or other pax ?

The problem/issue are the unvaccinated not the other way around.

So conform, just do it, or you're the problem and shall be cast from society as unclean.

Again, the world has lost nuance and there is nothing that is right for everyone. Someone who is 75 years old who is against the vaccine, I'll say "yea, you might want to reconsider" as covid is much bigger risk for them. I'm 33, my wife is 26, and we are getting ready to try and grow our family and are both healthy. For us, the right choice is not to take the vaccine as covid is statistically zero risk for us. Covid is also statistically zero risk for those who took the vaccine. That is all good!! If society looks down on us for that choice, I guess that's fine but it's not good. It will further divide and cause a parallel economy. That's why mandates are bad. The underlying issue is it's time to stop living in fear of covid cause everyone is adults and can make their own choice. 

To me that means, whether you have the vaccine or not, I don't care. I'd take 10 random members from here and smoke a cigar around a table with you, and not care whether you took the vaccine or not, or will give me covid. Would you do the same with me?  

[joeypots]

Wow, how times have changed. NYC vaccinated 6 million people in less than a month in1947.  It's interesting to read about how people think the vaccine is dangerous. Vaccines are one of the greatest inventions of all time. The average life expectancy at birth of humanity worldwide in 1950 was something like 45 to 48 years. It is now something like 72 to 74 years world wide. Vaccines are responsible for most of that gain. I think the fact that polio, peruses, measles, mumps, rubella, are small pox are no longer diseases that people are familiar with has a lot to do with vaccine hesitancy.  There's and old adage, good news travels slowly, bad news has wings. Maybe it's better said that truth travels slowly, there's loads of misinformation out there that reenforces bias.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/nyregion/nyc-smallpox-vaccine.html

  

[djrey]

26 minutes ago, Trapper99 said:

So conform, just do it, or you're the problem and shall be cast from society as unclean.

Again, the world has lost nuance and there is nothing that is right for everyone. Someone who is 75 years old who is against the vaccine, I'll say "yea, you might want to reconsider" as covid is much bigger risk for them. I'm 33, my wife is 26, and we are getting ready to try and grow our family and are both healthy. For us, the right choice is not to take the vaccine as covid is statistically zero risk for us. Covid is also statistically zero risk for those who took the vaccine. If society looks down on us for that choice, I guess that's fine but it's not good. It will further divide and cause a parallel economy. That's why mandates are bad. The underlying issue is it's time to stop living in fear of covid cause everyone is adults and can make their own choice. 

To me that means, whether you have the vaccine or not, I don't care. I'd take 10 random members from here and smoke a cigar around a table with you, and not care whether you took the vaccine or not, or will give me covid. Would you do the same with me?  

Spot on brother. I’m 30 and plan on a starting a family in the next 2 years. My fiancé and I have nearly zero risk of Covid complications and know well over 30 friends who barely knew they had it. We also know 3 people personally who have either had miscarriages and other pregnancy issues after receiving the vaccines. Related? Who knows but we aren’t taking the risk.
 

So the govt/employer thinks it’s going to mandate a shot and potentially compromise my RIGHT to have a family because people are scared? Come and get me. I have just as much a right to be concerned of a new vaccine and others have a right to be scared of Covid. 
 

Go get the vaccine and remain confident in its abilities and your choice. But don’t dare step on my right to choose. 
 

As you said, people in our mindset don’t belittle people for their opinions and their choices and I’d gladly light up a cigar with anyone on this forum. It’s sad that it’s not mutual and becoming a vaccine vs non vaccine world. There are more with our principles than many believe, hold fast.

[Trapper99]

1 hour ago, therealrsr said:

I am liable under the laws of my country if I place an employee in a dangerous situation that turns tragic.  Unless they grant legal immunity for Covid transmission I demand the right to hire and fire based on status.

Our US House Representative came by our small business for a “dog and pony PR” tour a few weeks after the first PPP was passed to see how it helped small business stay open. One of the topics that we brought up that he was for was liability protections for business. It was shot down in Congress, and I see why now unfortunately.

[Nino]

43 minutes ago, Trapper99 said:

So conform, just do it, or you're the problem and shall be cast from society as unclean.

Again, the world has lost nuance and there is nothing that is right for everyone.

To me that means, whether you have the vaccine or not, I don't care. I'd take 10 random members from here and smoke a cigar around a table with you, and not care whether you took the vaccine or not, or will give me covid. Would you do the same with me?  

 

18 minutes ago, djrey said:

As you said, people in our mindset don’t belittle people for their opinions and their choices and I’d gladly light up a cigar with anyone on this forum. It’s sad that it’s not mutual and becoming a vaccine vs non vaccine world. There are more with our principles than many believe, hold fast.

@Trapper99 - Seems to me your reply is not very nuanced as you imply something I didn't say, I do not call people outcasts or unclean for not having the jab, but they do pose a problem that they cannot dispell even using all their logic for not taking a jab.

There is a very good word : Choice. Yours is as good as mine as long as you don't pose a health risk to me.

As for smoking a cigar with you or @djrey - no problem with that.

I just had 3 days of cigars with buddies from all over Europe here in my village. Even the vaccinated ones had to have tests ( gvt. regulation ) to be here but we felt safe as we knew the status of each other.

But if one would not even take a test he will not join us and can very well smoke alone.

 

[Chibearsv]

1 hour ago, Nino said:

I'd always choose the one that has vaccinated staff/crews, in this case United, even paying more for the airfare.

What is the sense in me being double vaccinated if I have to share the risk of unvaccinated staff and/or other pax ?

The problem/issue are the unvaccinated not the other way around.

I agree partially here.  I'd love it if the airlines would require double vax for passengers and crew but I don't think it's necessary for me to make a purchase decision.  I don't really see that I'm at much risk after being vaccinated by unvaccinated crew or pax.  I see that the risk is taken by those that aren't vaccinated.  Since there has now been ample opportunity for individuals to get the vaccine, I'm sure those that choose not to take it must understand and accept the risks.  

[Trapper99]

25 minutes ago, Nino said:

 

@Trapper99 - Seems to me your reply is not very nuanced as you imply something I didn't say, I do not call people outcasts or unclean for not having the jab, but they do pose a problem that they cannot dispell even using all their logic for not taking a jab.

There is a very good word : Choice. Yours is as good as mine as long as you don't pose a health risk to me.

As for smoking a cigar with you or @djrey - no problem with that.

I just had 3 days of cigars with buddies from all over Europe here in my village. Even the vaccinated ones had to have tests ( gvt. regulation ) to be here but we felt safe as we knew the status of each other.

But if one would not even take a test he will not join us and can very well smoke alone.

 

If my reply/what I implied is not what you meant by saying “unvaccinated are the problem”, I did not mean that but that is how it came across. I would welcome a better explanation. 

And yes, I agree with you on choice. You can choose to smoke a cigar with me or not, same as I can choose to agree with your terms or decline. My terms are no terms. In the same way as it relates to El Pres’ OP, I think businesses can mandate legally, but I don’t think they should. Mine won’t. Employees and patrons then have their choice. No matter what one chooses, I’ll respect that.

[Hammer Smokin']

I see "Zero Risk" has different meaning for different people. 

and yet, "zero" is a pretty clear defining factor. 

such strange times we live in. 

[Nino]

40 minutes ago, Chibearsv said:

Since there has now been ample opportunity for individuals to get the vaccine, I'm sure those that choose not to take it must understand and accept the risks.  

Fully agree - that's what it will come down to in the end.

[Ginseng]

7 minutes ago, Nino said:

Fully agree - that's what it will come down to in the end.

Doesn't it entail more than just individual risk, though? Every infection is an opportunity for the virus to mutate into a strain that could evade current vaccines, spread even more easily, or increased virulence. With respect to Covid, individual risk assessment and tolerance overlap with considerations of the greater good. That is, the good of all.

[Nino]

14 minutes ago, Ginseng said:

Every infection is an opportunity for the virus to mutate into a strain that could evade current vaccines, spread even more easily, or increased virulence. With respect to Covid, individual risk assessment and tolerance overlap with considerations of the greater good. That is, the good of all.

Well, being extremely ironic/sarcastic here, I see it as being good for BioNTech, the German company that developed the Pfizer vaccine right next to my village here as they would have a nice order for new vaccines ( that they are working on right as we speak).

Their stock has risen 2500% since IPO 2 years ago and I happen to have some in my portfolio.

Irony off.

[rjake100]

@Ginseng that is a good point.  Novel virus risk-math is pretty hard to calculate for a single person.  Risk-math for the World's population is a little bit easier to compute.  The medical experts concluded that for the good of all we should get the shots. For me that gives employers (not govts) the green light to mandate.  Everybody has their choice.  There are consequences for every decision.

[CommanderJWBond]

Doesn't it entail more than just individual risk, though? Every infection is an opportunity for the virus to mutate into a strain that could evade current vaccines, spread even more easily, or increased virulence. With respect to Covid, individual risk assessment and tolerance overlap with considerations of the greater good. That is, the good of all.

You’re right. There is a greater good. People who have major non covid health issues will have a difficult time finding a bed in an ICU in the southern US if they need it.

Many employers will require it, and people can get the vaccine or get a new job. That’s just going to be the cost of being in certain parts of society going forward. It will be the same with travel and many other areas of life.

[Ciscojohansson]

This poll shows that totalitarianism will come at our own request. Fear will make us less free and we will welcome our chains as they give us a sense of security.

[Nino]

Let's get some humour in here - hope nobody feels offended.

[Grateful13]

 

24 minutes ago, Ciscojohansson said:

This poll shows that totalitarianism will come at our own request. Fear will make us less free and we will welcome our chains as they give us a sense of security.

Sad reality. The amount of intolerance and outright hate from the pro-government, pro-violence (mandating someone shove a needle with experimental treatments into their arm IS advocating for violence), and pro segregation (vax “passports”) crowd is truly disturbing. 

And these people actually believe they are being heroic by advocating for this. They really think sitting on their ass and getting a vaccine makes them some kind of hero. It’s classic cult behavior with the covid truthers. When their predictions of doomsday (covid will kill us all, 15 days to stop the spread!) and/or miracles (the vaccine is safe and works) don’t come to fruition, they always double down on their zealotry. The new covid religion. 

[RedLantern]

5 minutes ago, Grateful13 said:

 

Sad reality. The amount of intolerance and outright hate from the pro-government, pro-violence crowd (mandating someone shove a needle with experimental treatments into their arm IS advocating for violence) is truly disturbing. 

And these people actually believe they are being heroic by advocating for this. They really think sitting on their ass and getting a vaccine makes them some kind of hero. It’s classic cult behavior. When their predictions of doomsday (covid will kill us all) and/or miracles (the vaccine is safe and works) don’t come to fruition, they always double down on their zealotry. The new covid religion. 

I don’t think you understand what mandating or experimental means in this context.

 

If you chose not to take on minimal risk for the benefit of society, don’t cry when you cannot the reap all the benefits of society.

[Ciscojohansson]

6 minutes ago, therealrsr said:

How does a private business owner's employment requirements turn into totalitarianism?

This sets a president. What will we do when the next disease comes? or the next problem that will end the world? Give up your freedoms and rights in the name of security and liberalism. Like Churchill said:The fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists

[HarveyBoulevard]

31 minutes ago, Ciscojohansson said:

This poll shows that totalitarianism will come at our own request. Fear will make us less free and we will welcome our chains as they give us a sense of security.

As much as it pains me to say, I believe you are correct...

There is a great movie, Hot Fuzz, that puts 'the greater good' into a satirical context but many things, both wonderful and horrific have been done in the name of 'the greater good'.  It is always a term I view with great skepticism.

[Puros Y Vino]

10 minutes ago, Grateful13 said:

 

Sad reality. The amount of intolerance and outright hate from the pro-government, pro-violence (mandating someone shove a needle with experimental treatments into their arm IS advocating for violence), and pro segregation (vax “passports”) crowd is truly disturbing. 

And these people actually believe they are being heroic by advocating for this. They really think sitting on their ass and getting a vaccine makes them some kind of hero. It’s classic cult behavior with the covid truthers. When their predictions of doomsday (covid will kill us all, 15 days to stop the spread!) and/or miracles (the vaccine is safe and works) don’t come to fruition, they always double down on their zealotry. The new covid religion. 

 I think you just described the anti-mask/vax crowd with that bit. 🤔

• Cult activity is putting on a red cap and following someone who had a chance to make it better but made it worse. 
• A cult has to mandate anti-mask laws while their states are drowning in new COVID-19 cases.
• A cult goes out to protest businesses trying to keep their staff and patrons safe.

This reads like an argument for being that guy in London who leaves his lights on during the air raids.  While a bomb may not hit his house, his neighbors who did their part, pay the price.  But hey, it's his right to read at night right?

 

 

[Grateful13]

18 minutes ago, RedLantern said:

 

If you chose not to take on minimal risk for the benefit of society, don’t cry when you cannot the reap all the benefits of society.

Why should I be forced to take on any risk for someone else’s alleged benefit?  Are you actually admitting there is risk in taking the vaxx?

How exactly does “society” benefit from me getting it? It seems like I would be the one benefiting.  Or does it just make you feel better when you can force your own decisions onto others?

If you get it and believe the vaccine works, why do you care if someone is unvaxxed? Do you not actually believe you are protected by it?  Or is it magic, like your your vaccine force field only activates when mine is activated too?  That’s certainly not what we were promised with this perfectly safe and effective vaccine. 

Why are Israel and Iceland - two of the most vaccinated states - seeing record cases leading the US State department to issue travel warnings for them?  And what’s this about booster shots? We were told one or two then back to normal. 

Why are the goal posts shifting all of a sudden?

[CommanderJWBond]

This sets a president. What will we do when the next disease comes? or the next problem that will end the world? Give up your freedoms and rights in the name of security and liberalism. Like Churchill said:The fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists

This would be true if governments mandated the vaccine, and that would not be good. But it in the context of private businesses it really doesn’t apply. Businesses are not mandated to hire or retain any of their employees at any time.

[RedLantern]

6 minutes ago, Grateful13 said:

Why should I be forced to take on any risk for someone else’s alleged benefit?  Are you actually admitting there is risk in taking the vaxx?

How exactly does “society” benefit from me getting it? It seems like I would be the one benefiting.  Or does it just make you feel better when you can force your own decisions onto others?

If you get it and believe the vaccine works, why do you care if someone is unvaxxed? Do you not actually believe you are protected by it?  Or is it magic, like your your vaccine force field only activates when mine is activated too?  That’s certainly not what we were promised with this perfectly safe and effective vaccine. 

Why are Israel and Iceland - two of the most vaccinated states - seeing record cases leading the US State department to issue travel warnings for them?  And what’s this about booster shots? We were told one or two then back to normal. 

Why are the goal posts shifting all of a sudden?

I can explain these questions to you, but I’m afraid I can’t help you understand it, if you haven’t by now.
 

Again, you suffering the natural consequences of your antisocial behavior is not the same as being forced to take the vaccine.

[Grateful13]

6 hours ago, RedLantern said:

I can explain these questions to you, but I’m afraid I can’t help you understand it, if you haven’t by now.
 

Again, you suffering the natural consequences of your antisocial behavior is not the same as being forced to take the vaccine.

Your hate and intolerance are duly noted. 

 

6 hours ago, Puros Y Vino said:

This reads like an argument for being that guy in London who leaves his lights on during the air raids.  While a bomb may not hit his house, his neighbors who did their part, pay the price.  But hey, it's his right to read at night right?

 

Yeah man that’s a totally legit, reasonable, and comparable situation, you don’t sound absolutely insane at all.  On the other hand, while I will ignore your US Politics posting, it seems like my post did score a direct hit with you!