Should Employers have the right to request staff be vaccinated?

[Hammer Smokin']

5 minutes ago, Chibearsv said:

I haven't experienced that at all around here yet.  That policy should have started with commercial airline flights instead of sitting everyone a few inches apart and requiring mask wearing and quarantine (which no one monitors).  

Here's an example from your backyard

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/coronavirus/metro-chicago-to-require-proof-of-covid-vaccination-at-upcoming-concerts-venue-says/2578964/

[d2d4]

Won’t touch the Covid Vax subject with a 10’ pole especially after reading so many opposing comments and opinions on this thread.
 

Would suggest many who care and love others give thought to history as it relates to historical viruses and breakthrough vaccines that we take for granted today…For too many years the public pleaded for God or Medical science to end the misery of Measles, Mumps, Rubella. Smallpox, Chickenpox, Typhoid, TB, Polio, Cholera, rabies, “Spanish Flu”, Pneumococcal…. just to name a few off top of my head. If everyone in history was staunchly Anti-vax as many apparently are today, we likely would all be dead and not reading this thread.  My how times have changed

To each his own but don’t make me, your employer be legally or financially responsible for your choices, whatever they are and whoever they may affect. 

[El Presidente]

1 minute ago, d2d4 said:

Won’t touch the Covid Vax subject with a 10’ pole especially after reading so many opposing comments and opinions on this thread.
 

To be fair, FOH has always been an advocate of respectful and open discussion. 

Well, we give it every chance 

So far, this thread is an example of how it should occur. 

[HarveyBoulevard]

20 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

To be fair, FOH has always been an advocate of respectful and open discussion. 

Well, we give it every chance 

So far, this thread is an example of how it should occur. 

Don’t lose hope. This thread is still young. 🙂

[NSXCIGAR]

52 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

I am pretty sure in this country at least that the govt can cross reference. They already have electronic access to every businesses pay system (by law).  It wouldn't take much for them to run vaccination compliance checks. 

But who can the government give that information to? Just anyone? The government would have to provide that to the employer. If an employer can just call up and get it then pretty much anyone can. Imagine if you're applying for jobs. Every prospective employer would have to get the info. I suppose the employee could consent for the government to share it but what is the law regarding sharing of medical information in Australia? I know in the US there are very strict federal laws about medical privacy and it would have to be fully consented to by the patient for a specific individual to see it and I don't think you can pick and choose what info is shared. It's all or nothing and no one would think it's reasonable to have to share that. 

Are we talking about employers mandating vaccinations on their own or are we talking about the government mandating employers verify it? Two very different things. I was under the impression the question was can employers mandate vaccines on their own. In that case, an employer can just check with the government for anyone's vaccination status? Doesn't seem right.

[Hammer Smokin']

that is why many federal governments world wide are creating vaccine ID's for their citizens. 

More info found here: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56522408

What the Israeli passport looks like. 

[B44]

As cuban cigar smokers here in the states I’d imagine that the lion share of us would be opposed to forced mandates. However we’re not talking about the devils lettuce or some fermented leaves, we’re talking about the ability to maintain work performance in light of a global pandemic.
 

For those of us in essential sectors, having to deal with employee illness, remote logistics where remote just won’t do and quickly having to ensure that everyone came into work all of last year, we now have an easy answer. We now have the ability to have a work force that is more resilient and has a less likely chance of coming down with Covid or atleast mitigating their chance at serve illness or death. I for one believe it is an easy choice to mandate employee vaccination.
 

We have begun to require this for our employees and are providing financial incentives to do so. $500 for both doses and a company lottery of $10k in which all employees go into once everyone is vaccinated. 

[Fuzz]

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

I am pretty sure in this country at least that the govt can cross reference. They already have electronic access to every businesses pay system (by law).  It wouldn't take much for them to run vaccination compliance checks. 

 

26 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

But who can the government give that information to? Just anyone? The government would have to provide that to the employer. If an employer can just call up and get it then pretty much anyone can. Imagine if you're applying for jobs. Every prospective employer would have to get the info. I suppose the employee could consent for the government to share it but what is the law regarding sharing of medical information in Australia? I know in the US there are very strict federal laws about medical privacy and it would have to be fully consented to by the patient for a specific individual to see it and I don't think you can pick and choose what info is shared. It's all or nothing and no one would think it's reasonable to have to share that. 

Are we talking about employers mandating vaccinations on their own or are we talking about the government mandating employers verify it? Two very different things. I was under the impression the question was can employers mandate vaccines on their own. In that case, an employer can just check with the government for anyone's vaccination status? Doesn't seem right.

The vaccines are linked to Medicare here in Aus. And if you link your Medicare to your MyGov account (like you can with many licences you may have; eg driver's, occupational, permits), then an employer would be able to use their own MyGov or state based Service app to check your vaccination status. You can already check occupational licences (builders/plumbers/electricians etc) online.

So it wouldn't be much effort to check the validity of someone's vaccine digital certificate. I already have my digital cert on my phone, ready for when it will be required for entry/service etc.

[NSXCIGAR]

59 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

 

The vaccines are linked to Medicare here in Aus. And if you link your Medicare to your MyGov account (like you can with many licences you may have; eg driver's, occupational, permits), then an employer would be able to use their own MyGov or state based Service app to check your vaccination status. You can already check occupational licences (builders/plumbers/electricians etc) online.

So it wouldn't be much effort to check the validity of someone's vaccine digital certificate. I already have my digital cert on my phone, ready for when it will be required for entry/service etc.

So any employer has access to your info on this MyGov? What other medical info can they see? And what constitutes an "employer" that has privileges to see this? Sounds pretty easy for just about anyone to get someone else's info on this MyGov. Surely the media could. So really no one can hide their vaccination status in Australia? 

Occupational licenses are no big deal--those are usually publicly available anywhere. Personal medical info is another story. 

[El Presidente]

21 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

So any employer has access to your info on this MyGov? What other medical info can they see? And what constitutes an "employer" that has privileges to see this? Sounds pretty easy for just about anyone to get someone else's info on this MyGov. Surely the media could. So really no one can hide their vaccination status in Australia? 

Occupational licenses are no big deal--those are usually publicly available anywhere. Personal medical info is another story. 

No. Govt has access only unless they are prepared (which hasn't happened as yet) to disclose someones vaccination status to a an employer.  

I can't see that happening. I am not sure I want to see it. 

However, should an employee state they are vaccinated and in my returning weekly/fortnighly wage disclosure to the government I have flagged them as "vaccinated"....and they are not, then technically, the government could raise a red flag immediately. 

[NSXCIGAR]

16 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

However, should an employee state they are vaccinated and in my returning weekly/fortnighly wage disclosure to the government I have flagged them as "vaccinated"....and they are not, then technically, the government could raise a red flag immediately. 

Got it. But in that case, it would be a matter of the government requiring the employer to state whether the employee has disclosed it to them. I consider that effectively a government mandate. If the government is asking for the info from the employer in order to cross-check it on their end, the employer really isn't free to set policy. They must ask. And why would the govt ask to request that from employers unless they had an agenda? 

Are they actually requesting this info on wage reports you submit?

[Duxnutz]

Yes. I believe they can. My employer just came out and gave us til Sept to get vaccinated. People kicking up a fuss but I highly doubt anyone would be willing to throw away their job over it. 

Travel industry related field - Airlines.

[Fuzz]

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

No. Govt has access only unless they are prepared (which hasn't happened as yet) to disclose someones vaccination status to a an employer.  

I can't see that happening. I am not sure I want to see it. 

However, should an employee state they are vaccinated and in my returning weekly/fortnighly wage disclosure to the government I have flagged them as "vaccinated"....and they are not, then technically, the government could raise a red flag immediately. 

Each vaccine digital cert has a document number. That could be put in a Govt register and you just look up the number. It could only show your name and date of vaccination. Register is only searchable by document number, not name. That way you can't go and find a similar name and use that doc number.

I don't see the Govt doing the checking (Scummo doesn't hold the register). They will leave that up to employers... and let them worry about all the problems.

[Meklown]

In HK, some businesses (e.g. restaurants, bars) have restricted opening hours in a tiered system, of which, one factor is the vaccination status of their employees.

If an employee's choice of (in)action has an impact on the employer's operating hours and hence ability to conduct business, I believe the employer should also have the right to terminate* or refuse to hire this person. 

@Hammer Smokin' got it nailed on though, it's a free market where employees can choose their employers and vice versa. 

*termination is a tricky one because it may not be legal to terminate an employee for a medical reason, much like how it is illegal to terminate a woman because she got pregnant. In HK, some establishments have stated that non-vaccinated employees will be exempt from discretionary bonuses and promotions. 

[CommanderJWBond]

I am new to this group, but this is a topic that can get many people where I live to go off the rails. It is refreshing to see a normal discussion of a complex and often sensitive topic.

[Nino]

5 hours ago, Duxnutz said:

Yes. I believe they can. My employer just came out and gave us til Sept to get vaccinated. People kicking up a fuss but I highly doubt anyone would be willing to throw away their job over it. 

Travel industry related field - Airlines.

Yes, they should and I understand it.

Airlines asking for vacc certificate from their passengers and not from their staff/crews ...  ??
that would be too stupid.

[Chibearsv]

8 hours ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

Here's an example from your backyard

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/coronavirus/metro-chicago-to-require-proof-of-covid-vaccination-at-upcoming-concerts-venue-says/2578964/

I see.  I guess I don't consider mass population events like concerts or sporting venues the same as I would an every day shop or restaurant.  And there might be a business or 2 around the area that might start requiring a vaccine card for service but it certainly isn't widespread at all...not yet at least.  As I said, it's not something I've experienced. 

[Trapper99]

I believe businesses can legally, but I don’t believe they should. I don’t like how, at least here in the states, when .gov realizes they can’t do something, they pressure/influence/demand private corporation to do it instead. It is a terrible precedent that the gov has figured out since COVID began (that personally I think is of questionable legality at best). 

Stats do show the vaccine really protects you from getting seriously sick. I think most people who haven’t taken the vaccine understand that, but for a variety of reasons don’t want to get it. People who are vaccinated shouldn’t really care if someone isn’t vaccinated, cause they themselves are protected from serious COVID. It’s on the person who chose not to get it. My wife and I are young and healthy, and soon will be trying to grow our family, so the risk reward calculation for us says we’d rather not chance the unknown long term effects of the vaccine. We’d rather get covid, and natural immunity.

It’s obvious now that the vaccine is not a way to zero COVID, as it will likely be with us forever but getting more contagious but less deadly. I believe this counters the argument that you should be mandated to get the vaccine for public health. If you get the vaccine, you have almost no risk for serious covid so if someone chose not to get it for whatever reason, it’s on them. The world today has lost nuance. There are groups that should absolutely get the vaccine, but that doesn’t mean everyone should be mandated. They chose not to get it, likely doing a risk calculation, and people should respect that choice 

Covid is probably going to keep getting more contagious but less deadly, as viruses generally mutate this way. They don’t like to kill their host as that is their vector for transmission. Everyone is going to get or be exposed to Covid, it’s unavoidable. This is where nuance comes in, so bear with me. What is the acceptable death rate before we live our lives not in fear and with restrictions that don’t even stop the spread? It seems now the goal is zero deaths with covid. How come we don’t have the same goal and restrictions with the flu or common cold? Today I will likely do many things that have an associated death rate with it, but I do it anyway. It’s a complex, nuanced, risky world made up of 8 billion individuals, and for this reason, I don’t think mandates are generally good. I believe businesses can legally ( for employees, patrons is questionable), but shouldn’t (to answer the original question 😂)

[99call]

No US poliitics but a little slice of UK politics. 

Interestingly a huge percentage of the right wing in the UK, will harp on about "my Grandad didn't fight Hitler so...enter any hyperbolic statement".     My Grandad also fought in the war, and I'm hugely proud of him,  So proud that I wouldn't want to cheapen his service by trying to construct some sort of crass argument, that gives me a free pass to do whatever I want. 

Back on topic.    So in the early days of the pandemic in the UK, Boris Johnson expressed no confidence in the UK people by suggesting we were unlikely to be able to mirror the efforts and control of South Korea, Taiwan etc etc. i.e follow rules, self isolate etc etc.    But as he did this (pound shop Churchill that he is desperate to be) he also tried invoke the 'Blitz spirit' and that we would fight the pandemic on the beached blah blah blah. 

After lots of polls, and research, it turns out that the UK, is actually still a massively observant of rules and Boris completely sold us short. People in the UK were desperate for simple rules, and to be confident that they would work.  Lack or respect, tollerance and observation of the rules only seeped in when the Government themselves made and absolute mockery of them, and that directions seemed to change every minute etc etc. 

What was great about the 'Blitz spirit' is people were not asked how they felt about blacking out windows for bombing raids, or wearing gas masks, they were ordered to do it and they did, people cared about doing 'their bit'. To much of the worlds ill's these days is operating and the pace of the slowest kid in the class.  If some dumb ass want the liberty to abandon all societal responsibility, then society (in turn) owes them absolutely nothing. 

To answer Robs question, I think it's all about awareness.  If a company or an employee wants the right not to be vaccinated, it is their responsibility to make it clear to customers of their position, and how safe or not safe their products or site is. I think it becomes difficult when you have a workforce that are split, and members of staff may demand not to work alongside other non vaccinates staff. 

As much as there are obvious negatives about authoritarian countries where it's people have to step in line or be punished,   I think there are also massive negatives on radical libertarianism, where people are obsessed with freedom to the point where they may opt against something, not because they don't agree with it, but rather that someone else has sanctioned it, and they flatly refuse to do anything they are told to do.

 

[Ginseng]

Here's a related question for travelers.

United Airlines is the only major carrier at this point to mandate vaccinations for their employees. Neither Southwest, American, nor Delta are mandating, only strongly suggesting. If there are two carriers with flights into your destination, would you  choose United because of their mandate even if the ticket were more expensive? Would you choose one of the other carriers because they don't mandate, if the United fare was cheaper?

[Cigar Surgeon]

If you're talking about the US, this is a moot point as they technically already do. If your employer can mandate you're not allowed to be a tobacco user, then they can mandate that you must be vaccinated.

As far as Canada goes: Absolutely yes. But only healthcare providers are going to mandate it. 

As far as whether the decision should be left to employers; Absolutely not. Governments around the world have been passing the buck on responsibility. Governments absolutely should be setting up vaccinate mandates for things like large indoor gatherings, plane travel, etc. Those are the easiest vectors for transmission, and certain people have taken a hard line stance against getting vaccinated.

[Cigar Surgeon]

11 hours ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

 

Happening all across North America right now. Businesses requiring their customers being double vaxx'd. (surprisingly enough, more so in the USA than Canada, which I would have never guessed)

That's easy to explain. Vaccine and virus denial was politicized in the US, not so much in Canada. As a result bad consumer behavior directed at employees was much, much worse in the US than in Canada. It took Alberta just under 3 months to go from unvaccinated to over 70% single jab vaccinated, so it's clear the average person up here is much more accepting than down there.

  

11 hours ago, BellevilleMXZ said:

 In Ontario, we have required for years that school aged kids get vaxed for various things, or you can't go. I don't see how this is different.

It's the same way for much of the US as well as I understand it, I think people just like to ignore what's in front of their face. Try sending a kid with chickenpox to a public school and see what happens.

[djrey]

18 minutes ago, Ginseng said:

Here's a related question for travelers.

United Airlines is the only major carrier at this point to mandate vaccinations for their employees. Neither Southwest, American, nor Delta are mandating, only strongly suggesting. If there are two carriers with flights into your destination, would you  choose United because of their mandate even if the ticket were more expensive? Would you choose one of the other carriers because they don't mandate, if the United fare was cheaper?

I would pay double to use the airline that doesn’t mandate vaccines for their employees. Just as I would never dine at a restaurant that requires proof of vaccination. 

A loss of employees who prefer to choose what goes in their bodies along with a 20 maybe 30%? loss in business is what will be in store for business’ that decide to enforce draconian measures. People will be voting with their wallet on these issues.

 

[Nino]

38 minutes ago, Ginseng said:

Here's a related question for travelers.

United Airlines is the only major carrier at this point to mandate vaccinations for their employees. Neither Southwest, American, nor Delta are mandating, only strongly suggesting. If there are two carriers with flights into your destination, would you  choose United because of their mandate even if the ticket were more expensive? Would you choose one of the other carriers because they don't mandate, if the United fare was cheaper?

I'd always choose the one that has vaccinated staff/crews, in this case United, even paying more for the airfare.

What is the sense in me being double vaccinated if I have to share the risk of unvaccinated staff and/or other pax ?

The problem/issue are the unvaccinated not the other way around.

[Puros Y Vino]

I think for roles that predominantly deal with the public it should definitely be considered.  When I finished high school, I worked at a Hospital for the summer.  They liked me, wanted to hire me but I needed to be subjected to two weeks of various health testing.  Bloodwork, urine samples and stool samples as well.   Once I was cleared I could work in the storeroom, next to the Kitchen.  If you're in the medical field, this should be a no brainer. Take the shot. Or leave.  Food service industry? Perhaps.  I wouldn't even want someone with a cold cooking or serving me food. 

On a more recent note. My employer is considering sending us back to the office with the goal of 30% occupancy per building with staff working 1-2 days at the office, the rest of the week remote.  One large roadblock is that we're not allowed to ask people going in if they've been vaxxed thanks to Privacy Laws, which IMO do more to protect the organization than the individuals. 🙄 So, in effect. Someone's privacy trumps everyone else's safety.  Many of us are not happy about that and if it comes to a head, the effort will backfire.  We already suspect we have anti-mask/vax crazies among our ranks.  And this non-measure gives them an opportunity to play the rebel in their tiny minds at their co-workers expense.  As someone who has worked in the Canadian Health care industry, I can easily dispel the notion that we have privacy when it comes to health data.  I worked close with a few ex Insurance guys.  Our healthcare data definitely crosses the borders over to US insurance subsidiaries.  It's privacy theatre and it is being used by our gov'ts to not take a stand and put a "vax passport" measure in place. 

In short, I'd say "yes" to the question if the roles require a lot of public or interoffice interaction.  In general, everyone should aim to do their part as we are seeing right now the cost of not vaccinating has done.  The majority of new cases are amongst the unvaxxed.  The longer they hold out, the more the virus mutates and lingers on.