Should Employers have the right to request staff be vaccinated?

[HarveyBoulevard]

I held off as long a possible...

As an employer in the US (California), the rules I mention may or may not be applicable to other locals.

So, if my employee gets Covid-19, it is presumed to have been contracted at work.  I must PROVE it was not to avoid all the fun stuff that comes next.  He cannot be fired and now gets an ungodly amount of paid leave and/or worker's compensation.  I must now hire someone to do his job while I pay him NOT to do his job.  So, my small business increases its payroll and gets reduced productivity because my employee contracted a mostly preventable illness (last part is opinion

Now, if an employee does not WANT to be vaxxed, I am fine with that.  However, the employment protections should not apply to said employee.  The employer should not bear the burden of the risk of the employee. Risk mitigation pure and simple.  Unfortunately, I live in a place that views what I just expressed as pure unmitigated evil so that won't work for me.

Now, SHOULD I be able to force vax for my employee as term of employment?  Your bet your ass I can.  If he gets sick, I pay for his choice to refuse, not him.

WILL I force vax...No way in hell.  Goes against everything I believe in and I will never force it.

So, my position is that if someone gets vaxxed, they should get the benefits required by law (even if I think it is a bit excessive).  If someone refuses to get vaxxed, I am not paying for their refusal and the government benefits should NOT attach.

Don't get it if you don't want to but don't ask me to pay the price for your freedom of choice.  You can pay that yourself.

[dobbs]

5 minutes ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

I see it as an opportunity for those who choose to get vaccinated to get a better chance at a job. 

Or an opportunity for an employer to advertise they don't require vaccinations, to attract those top employees that don't want to be forced to take anything. 

It will all work out. 

There will be absolutely no collapse of society. 

this is dead on.

-dobbs

[El Presidente]

Just now, clint said:

Was it an Emergency Use Authorization in OZ as well?

Not as far as I am aware. 

We were late to the Vax party as a result of waiting for TGA green light. Moderna only received approval last week. 

[Greenhorn2]

Who knows the long term effects of injecting an unapproved vaccine into a person. What if an employer requires all employees to get vaccinated and finds out years later that there is fatal side effects and the people you mandated to take the vaccine in order to keep their jobs  die from it? Is it a decision you can live with? I don't know. 

[Zebra]

46 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

 

1 hour ago, Zebra said:

Even if that’s right it doesn’t stop them transmitting it. This is important because as I currently understand it vaccinated staff will protect no one but themselves. The argument that vaccinated staff protect customers is seemingly a shaky one without any real scientific evidence to back it up.

Expand  

took me a few minutes on google to find all manner scientific evidence and reports to confirm the contrary. studies here involving several hundred thousand (so hardly a small sampling) show transmission is reduced by 40 to 60%. israel has had similar results noting 'huge' and 'significant' reductions. the CDC has reported the same.

you can choose not to believe them but that doesn't mean it is not true. plenty of scientific evidence if you don't simply dismiss it because it doesn't suit your view. 

apparently the moderna vax is even made or being adjusted, with this aim in mind. 

 

Seemingly not so with the Delta variant which was apparently responsible for 99% of infections in the UK during the last week of July.

I suppose it also boils down to which scientific sources we trust and why.

You can choose to believe the CDC and “Israel” but that does not necessarily mean it’s true either. It should be obvious that propaganda from both these sources exists. Google is also notorious for censorship, but that’s another conversation and nothing really hinges upon it. We must all wade through the bullshit to find the truth and that’s no easy task. In fact I believe it’s deliberately very difficult.

Anyway, I’ll leave it there I think.

 

[Fuzz]

39 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

If one more moron uses "climate change" again in this discussion, they will be executed. 

In this current pandemic climate, we need to change the way we think and do things...

[Hammer Smokin']

3 minutes ago, clint said:

One litmus test that I like to use when consuming "propaganda" whether it be in main stream media or independent online sources is "does what I see or read match what I am witnessing on the ground in real life, in real time".  Not inconclusive proof of anything I admit but it's a starting point.

But people see what they want to see. 

Two people can look at something and see two entirely different things. 

Sometimes it's important to look beyond what you see. 

[CommanderJWBond]

I should mention employees also have the right to find a new employer who doesn't require it - or become their own employer. 

I think this is the nail on the head. If it isn’t illegal and the company wants you to do it, you either do it and take their money or find a new job.

Many healthcare employers around me test for tobacco when they test for drugs. They will Norma hire you or fire you if they find it.

[El Presidente]

8 minutes ago, Zebra said:

Seemingly not so with the Delta variant which was apparently responsible for 99% of infections in the UK during the last week of July.

 

UK is an interesting case in point. 

Country is highly vaccinated (70% 1 dose, 60% fully).They opened up July. Cases exploded. However cases have fallen sharply over past 2 weeks.  Good signs and hope it continues.

 

 

 

[El Presidente]

Just now, Fuzz said:

In this current pandemic climate, we need to change the way we think and do things...

Et tu, Brute    

[Fuzz]

Just now, El Presidente said:

Et tu, Brute    

I'm stuck here in Fortress Sydney. I need something to make me smile and keep me sane.

[El Presidente]

Just now, Fuzz said:

I'm stuck here in Fortress Sydney. I need something to make me smile and keep me sane.

I feel for you mate. 

You can play with Ken when he is back from the doctor. I will hold you responsible for keeping him in check and avoiding  being suspended for the 6th time. 

.....it is a full time job 

[Enduin]

Nobody knows the long term effects of the vaccines, true. Nobody knows the long term effects of catching COVID as an unvaccinated person, also true. There are several viruses previously thought as fairly harmless that are now linked to the development of serious conditions later on. So, as far as long term effects, it's a tie. They are both unknown. 

There might not be a lot of peer reviewed studies at the moment, but what is available does show some pretty good results for the vaccines. Additionally I have friends working at hospitals, and what I keep hearing is that 95% of COVID patients admitted are unvaccinated. The remaining 5% are vaccinated but immunocompromised or with serious pre-existing conditions. The empirical evidence seems to support the efficacy of the vaccines in reducing both the vulnerability to catching the virus and the severity of the disease in case an infection still occurs. Doing a cost/benefit analysis the vaccines come out on top. Which is why even though I had serious reservations about the vaccines, due to having several complex autoimmune disorders and being worried about side effects, I still decided to get the vaccine. 

Most importantly, I believe in personal responsibility: people should be able to choose what they want to do, as long as they accept the consequences of their choices. If people don't want to be vaccinated or wear masks, that's their right. Going around to infect other people is not a right, just like driving drunk and endangering the safety of other drivers is not a right. 

If an employer wants to require vaccination it should be his right to do so. He might miss out on some maybe fantastic employees. And if an employee wants to refuse vaccination that's also his right, and he might miss out on some awesome job opportunities. We all have to make our choices and accept the consequences. 

 

 

[NSXCIGAR]

Just occurred to me that employers mandating vaccines might result in propagation of fake vaccination cards. I'm assuming those who aren't vaccinated by now really don't want to be vaccinated and won't be. We're past that. Anyone not vaccinated at this point is pretty much intentionally avoiding it and will likely continue to.

And I'm also assuming the laws in most western countries prohibit just anyone from trying to find out another's vaccine status. Even if someone grants access I'm assuming they'd be granting access to all their medical information and surely that wouldn't be reasonable for an employer to request. Is there any way to get around a faked vaccine card?

[SCgarman]

How many of you as parents of minor children have forced them to get vaxxed? My wife and I have a 15 year old daughter and she refuses the jab. We are respecting her wishes. She is starting the 10th grade next week in a new public HS. No mask mandates here in south carolina either. Should be interesting. I'm sure there are plenty of parents here with opinions.

[rjake100]

24 minutes ago, Enduin said:

Nobody knows the long term effects of the vaccines, true. Nobody knows the long term effects of catching COVID as an unvaccinated person, also true.

If I had to choose between the long term side effects of the vaccine or the long term side effects of COVID, I would choose the vaccine. Easy choice.

Lets assume a vaccinated individual is less likely to transmit the disease to others. Employers have every right to require employees to be vaxed before coming into the office. I'll take it a step further. If we assume the vaccinated are less likely to burden the healthcare system, then hospitals should be able to require a vaccine for anyone wanting to utilize elective surgeries.

[Chibearsv]

Damn, that's a tough question for a high customer contact business.  We are lucky that the mortgage business has become basically a zero contact business. 

Are you mostly concerned with protecting your employees or your customers or your liability exposure?

Can you require that your customers are vaccinated?  I think the answer to that question might give you a basis for an answer to your original question. 

Do local labor administrations have opinions on this topic and are there any potential waivers of liability that may be available for you regarding both your customers and your employees?

Sorry, I know I'm answering a question with questions but I don't really have a good answer. 

 

[El Presidente]

24 minutes ago, NYgarman said:

How many of you as parents of minor children have forced them to get vaxxed? My wife and I have a 15 year old daughter and she refuses the jab. We are respecting her wishes. She is starting the 10th grade next week in a new public HS. No mask mandates here in south carolina either. Should be interesting. I'm sure there are plenty of parents here with opinions.

No Jab No Pay (and No Jab No Play) is an Australian policy initiative which withholds three state payments – Child Care Benefit, the Child Care Rebate and a portion of the fortnightly Family Tax Benefit part A per child – for parents of children under 20 years of age who are not fully immunised 

 

[Meesterjojo]

As a front line healthcare worker I'm absolutely sick and tired of people coming in with covid now. 

We did it last year, and our hospital lost half its staff. Now we're understaffed like every hospital in texas. 

I appreciate the unvaccinated folks making me move up two it three tax brackets this year. But I'm so tired. 

We have moronic County judges telling the press that nurses need to "step it up". And we have our idiot governor hiring *thousands* of nurses to come help. But there aren't any to help. And I'm not stepping up. People need to step it up and get a shot, wear a mask, or please go off in the woods and die. 

People act like this is what we signed up for. No. It's not. We want to think the best of people. That they're intelligent enough to care about their wellbeing and the health if those around them. All this has taught nurses is that humans are trash, for the most part.

And they beg to be enabled. Oh please step it up. Please. So we can continue to be irresponsible. We don't believe in vaccines that have saved billions of lives in the past, but give me some horse paste (ivermectin) for worms and I'll mix it with some other hoodoo crap I've Googled because they know better than healthcare providers. 

We're tired, people. And now our state has asked us to halt non essential operations. We have people on my unit dying because they can't get transferred. And we have people that need operations we can't provide because we can't provide after care because unvaccinated people that also happen not to mask up are selfish.

 

So, is it right for an employer to ask employees to get a vaccine? Hell yes it is.

Because I promise you this: when this all settles and the lawsuits begin the nurses of the world are already talking, and we will support every person that sues a business because a loved one died due to a negligent employee.

 

Or pay me more. Because I'll keep risking my life and holding the hand of your dying relative, tell them they did good and everything is done and they can go now. I'll do that for a price. As is I'm already thinking of a career change soon like many nurses. It's just not worth it. 

We're a hidden pillar of your society. Spit on us and you'll all regret it. Keep doing it.

[El Presidente]

32 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Just occurred to me that employers mandating vaccines might result in propagation of fake vaccination cards. I'm assuming those who aren't vaccinated by now really don't want to be vaccinated and won't be. We're past that. Anyone not vaccinated at this point is pretty much intentionally avoiding it and will likely continue to.

And I'm also assuming the laws in most western countries prohibit just anyone from trying to find out another's vaccine status. Even if someone grants access I'm assuming they'd be granting access to all their medical information and surely that wouldn't be reasonable for an employer to request. Is there any way to get around a faked vaccine card?

I am pretty sure in this country at least that the govt can cross reference. They already have electronic access to every businesses pay system (by law).  It wouldn't take much for them to run vaccination compliance checks. 

[Hammer Smokin']

7 minutes ago, Chibearsv said:

Damn, that's a tough question for a high customer contact business.  We are lucky that the mortgage business has become basically a zero contact business. 

Are you mostly concerned with protecting your employees or your customers or your liability exposure?

Can you require that your customers are vaccinated?  I think the answer to that question might give you a basis for an answer to your original question. 

Do local labor administrations have opinions on this topic and are there any potential waivers of liability that may be available for you regarding both your customers and your employees?

Sorry, I know I'm answering a question with questions but I don't really have a good answer. 

 

 

Happening all across North America right now. Businesses requiring their customers being double vaxx'd. (surprisingly enough, more so in the USA than Canada, which I would have never guessed)

[Zebra]

1 hour ago, Zebra said:

Anyway, I’ll leave it there I think.

Sorry one last thing. A recent official Public Health England (PHE) report has shown CT values were similar between vaccinated and unvaccinated cases. This means that once infected there "is limited difference in viral load" between vaccinated and unvaccinated persons.

This backs up what I’ve said earlier so thought I’d share it. 😎

[El Presidente]

9 minutes ago, Meesterjojo said:

As a front line healthcare worker I

Thank you 

[Chibearsv]

2 minutes ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

 

Happening all across North America right now. Businesses requiring their customers being double vaxx'd. (surprisingly enough, more so in the USA than Canada, which I would have never guessed)

I haven't experienced that at all around here yet.  That policy should have started with commercial airline flights instead of sitting everyone a few inches apart and requiring mask wearing and quarantine (which no one monitors).  

[BellevilleMXZ]

I would say yes, as ,  I can see businesses getting sued/health ins. increases/coverage dropped, if they get an outbreak. Thats all some of these poor business owners need after this mess of lockdowns etc.   In Ontario, we have required for years that school aged kids get vaxed for various things, or you can't go. I don't see how this is different. Ok, so this vax isn't "approved"......but how much more of a test do we need , considering the millions of doses done, with the very low incidents of bad/fatal reactions? ALL vaxs have some bad side effects. Seems the effects of covid are much worse. I know 2 people that didn't make it, and they were no where near deaths door or have health issues when they got it. I feel for our health care professionals.....I know a couple that are getting burnt out with long hours/low staff, and dealing with this.