Should Employers have the right to request staff be vaccinated?

[dgixxer252525]

I don’t like mandates, I don’t like the government in my life, and I don’t like the fact that the talking points change repeatedly. I won’t mandate any of my employees get it, but if they want it they are free to get it. I had covid and it didn’t really do anything to me. I’ll probably get the vaccine in a couple weeks, if anything just to be able to go places freely and not worry about being turned away. If I could get a card that says “antibodies” instead, I’d get that haha. 
 

This is a great topic that really shows how the members on this site lean politically. Very telling who we choose to quote and who we choose to leave out of the convo. 

[Ken Gargett]

5 minutes ago, dgixxer252525 said:

I don’t like mandates, I don’t like the government in my life, and I don’t like the fact that the talking points change repeatedly. I won’t mandate any of my employees get it, but if they want it they are free to get it. I had covid and it didn’t really do anything to me. I’ll probably get the vaccine in a couple weeks, if anything just to be able to go places freely and not worry about being turned away. If I could get a card that says “antibodies” instead, I’d get that haha. 
 

This is a great topic that really shows how the members on this site lean politically. Very telling who we choose to quote and who we choose to leave out of the convo. 

can i preface this by saying it is not aimed at you personally as i know that a great many people, on and off the forum, think this way. and it is not aimed at the politics of any particular country because it is happening all over the world. 

but your comment, to me, shows the enormity of the problem the world has. 

this is not, or at the very least, should not be a political issue. it is a medical/scientific issue and should/must be dealt with accordingly. that politics even gets to stick its nose into this shows what a mess the world is in. 

i posted the ron rivera quote above as a bit of fun but there is some serious truth behind it. 

[rcarlson]

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

this is not, or at the very least, should not be a political issue. it is a medical/scientific issue and should/must be dealt with accordingly. that politics even gets to stick its nose into this shows what a mess the world is in. 

Hogwash.  It is political.  If the medial/science is unsettled, frequently wrong, the competing viewpoints discounted because of the source, and evaluation of the position left to subjective metrics, it's political.   

[Ken Gargett]

9 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

Hogwash.  It is political.  If the medial/science is unsettled, frequently wrong, the competing viewpoints discounted because of the source, and evaluation of the position left to subjective metrics, it's political.   

sorry but for me that is utter rubbish. a convenient excuse for those who want to make it political to hide behind. 

[rcarlson]

4 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

sorry but for me that is utter rubbish. a convenient excuse for those who want to make it political to hide behind. 

Do you think anyone doubts your political bent?  If not, why do you think that is?  

[Ken Gargett]

Just now, rcarlson said:

Do you think anyone doubts your political bent?  If not, why do you think that is?  

whatever my supposed political bent might be (and you might not know me anywhere near as much as you think), that does not make what i say wrong. it just gives those determined to oppose the science/medical findings an excuse to do so. 

not that it is really anyone's business and i can't even imagine why it would be of interest but this 'political bent', i'll drop you a private note. you might be surprised. 

[rcarlson]

1 minute ago, Ken Gargett said:

whatever my supposed political bent might be (and you might not know me anywhere near as much as you think), that does not make what i say wrong. it just gives those determined to oppose the science/medical findings an excuse to do so. 

not that it is really anyone's business and i can't even imagine why it would be of interest but this 'political bent', i'll drop you a private note. you might be surprised. 

You might be surprised it's a two-way street on that.  I may not know you as well as you think I think, I have engaged you on other subjects on so-called "science," and there is consistency in passion and measures.  You're welcomed to prove me wrong, but I'm still wagering a bottle of something good that most anyone here can pick the political bent of most all commentators on this subject.  But that, I suppose, ain't "science" either.  Fortunately, politeness and respect seems to prevail around here, as it should, but it doesn't really mask the core beliefs from the weight assigned to the competing considerations by those speaking up.  Perhaps you're the exception, and that's cool with me.  We're just jawin'.              

[Ken Gargett]

1 minute ago, rcarlson said:

You might be surprised it's a two-way street on that.  I may not know you as well as you think I think, I have engaged you on other subjects on so-called "science," and there is consistency in passion and measures.  You're welcomed to prove me wrong, but I'm still wagering a bottle of something good that most anyone here can pick the political bent of most all commentators on this subject.  But that, I suppose, ain't "science" either.  Fortunately, politeness and respect seems to prevail around here, as it should, but it doesn't really mask the core beliefs from the weight assigned to the competing considerations by those speaking up.  Perhaps you're the exception, and that's cool with me.  We're just jawin'.              

i've sent you a note and i'll be curious to see what you think. and i am 100% sure that i don't know you nearly as well either. goes for almost everyone on a forum. 

what you have nailed is 'political bent on this subject', to a degree. political bent on one subject means nothing when we come to the next topic. there are issues i am very far from what some might imagine. one of the problems today is that politics all over the world seems now to be 100% in or 100% out. why on earth this has to be is beyond me. 

all that said, i still believe that it is 100% wrong to make this, or to try and make this, a political issue. science/medical. first and last.

but i know i won't convince you otherwise and ditto. 

[RedLantern]

1 minute ago, Ken Gargett said:

 

all that said, i still believe that it is 100% wrong to make this, or to try and make this, a political issue. science/medical. first and last.

 

I think any time the issue hinges on the opinions/understandings/recommendations of experts, populist political parties will see it as a political issue or opportunity.

[Ken Gargett]

Just now, RedLantern said:

I think any time the issue hinges on the opinions/understandings/recommendations of experts, populist political parties will see it as a political issue or opportunity.

agree with you. unfortunate though, whichever side one finds themselves on for this. 

[rcarlson]

12 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

i've sent you a note and i'll be curious to see what you think. and i am 100% sure that i don't know you nearly as well either. goes for almost everyone on a forum. 

what you have nailed is 'political bent on this subject', to a degree. political bent on one subject means nothing when we come to the next topic. there are issues i am very far from what some might imagine. one of the problems today is that politics all over the world seems now to be 100% in or 100% out. why on earth this has to be is beyond me. 

all that said, i still believe that it is 100% wrong to make this, or to try and make this, a political issue. science/medical. first and last.

but i know i won't convince you otherwise and ditto. 

Appreciate the comment, and for once we agree that "political bent" often changes with the subject depending on one's ideology.  It is personal.  

[Chucko8]

Alan Joyce seems to have the answer for you @El Presidente. Give Qantas a call.

[CommanderJWBond]

all that said, i still believe that it is 100% wrong to make this, or to try and make this, a political issue. science/medical. first and last.

You are correct, but sadly that’s not how it’s going to play out. It doesn’t matter if you believe in gravity or not, you step off a ledge and you are going down.

Currently, 98-99% of US Covid deaths are now among unvaccinated. Science doesn’t ‘care’ what your beliefs are.

[BrightonCorgi]

32 minutes ago, CommanderJWBond said:

 

You are correct, but sadly that’s not how it’s going to play out. It doesn’t matter if you believe in gravity or not, you step off a ledge and you are going down.

Currently, 98-99% of US Covid deaths are now among unvaccinated. Science doesn’t ‘care’ what your beliefs are.

 

In Israel it's opposite; the same percents are from vaccinated in the hospital.

[Ryan]

13 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

In Israel it's opposite; the same percents are from vaccinated in the hospital.

This is where data can be misleading. Saying that 98-99% of Israeli Covid deaths are among the vaccinated is not true. However it is true that, in Israel, more vaccinated people that not (56.3% as of a couple of weeks ago) are testing positive. But this is because the vast majority of Israeli adults are vaccinated and there are still some breakthrough cases.

It ignores the fact that the number of overall cases and deaths in Israel has dropped dramatically since vaccinations began.

Fact check here

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-644288348135 

Today's Covid news from Israel here. Cases are rising again.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/active-cases-pass-50000-just-2-months-after-they-stood-at-around-200/

However, here's an important, current, statistic.

"The Health Ministry said the rate of serious cases was far higher among unvaccinated Israelis aged 60-plus, who constituted 151.5 people per 100,000 in serious condition on Monday; among the vaccinated the figure was 19.3, and among the partially vaccinated 40.9."

 

 

[CommanderJWBond]

In Israel it's opposite; the same percents are from vaccinated in the hospital.

I would be interested in seeing that information. I can’t find it and I am usually a ok internet sleuth.

[Ryan]

To get back to the question of employer mandates.

In most places, employers have a duty to ensure the safety, health and welfare of employees at work.

So is there more risk from getting the vaccine or from contracting the virus?

In the Republic of Ireland, 6.4 million doses of vaccines have been given and no deaths from vaccine. There was one reported in Northern Ireland in April and that man was over 90. Also this was at the very start of the vaccination campaign. I spoke to a few doctors about the vaccine - blood clotting issue and was told that now that there is an awareness of the type of blood clots (low platelets) that can happen in what were already extremely rare cases, that risk from vaccine related blood clots has diminished even more, to effectively zero.

For a brief overview of effectiveness of vaccines in preventing serious disease and death.

In February, before vaccines here, Ireland was running (a 7-day average of) about 2,000 new cases per day and 40 deaths daily

We now have about 80% of adults fully vaccinated here.

We have a current Covid spike and a 7 day average of 1,700 new cases daily and 2 deaths daily.

So our current case rate is 85% what it was in February. Our death rate is 5% what it was in February, before vaccinations.

In Australia where 22% of the population is fully vaccinated, the 7-day average is 440 new cases and 4 deaths.

7 deaths in NSW in the last 24 hours, 5 unvaccinated and 2 partially vaccinated. None of them fully vaccinated.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/latest-russia-sees-800-daily-virus-deaths-4th-79465126

To me, it's a no-brainer. There are no religious beliefs, personal fears of needles or of side-effects, or beliefs in personal rights that outweigh the known and well understood risk to public health caused by Covid.

For me, until very recently, the "religious grounds" issue was still a sticky one. But no religious beliefs outweigh the risk to the health and lives of others if one wants to share the same space as them.  

[CommanderJWBond]

Employers have the right to decide what the job requirements are.

I don’t care what anyone does, but it will be interesting for some employers...

As an example at my work, while anyone is replaceable, the number of people who would quit if forced into a vaccine makes that group as a whole not replaceable. Therefore I am nearly certain it will never be required. But we don’t interact with the general public so it’s not like our business will be affected either way like an airline might.

[Cigar Surgeon]

34 minutes ago, Ryan said:

To get back to the question of employer mandates.

In most places, employers have a duty to ensure the safety, health and welfare of employees at work.

So is there more risk from getting the vaccine or from contracting the virus?

Alberta has gone from not having vaccines available, to ramping up vaccinations in short order. We still have some ways to go but the current stats are:

• 76.9 percent of 12+ population has received at least one dose (65.4% total population)
• 68 percent of 12+ population fully vaccinated (57.9% total population)

It's worth noting almost all our new cases since the start of July are the B.1.617 India Variant.

And we have data transparency around cases:

• Since Jan 1, 2021, 0.2% of people with one dose (6,204/2,875,544) were diagnosed with COVID-19 14 days after the first immunization date
• Since Jan 1, 2021, 0.1% of people with two doses (1,734/2,553,209) were diagnosed with COVID-19 14 days after the second immunization date
• 93.8% of cases (128,996/137,487) since Jan 1, 2021 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date
• 91.7% of hospitalized cases (5,419/5,908) since Jan 1, 20
• 21 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date
• 86.4% of COVID-19 deaths (693/802) since Jan 1, 2021 were unvaccinated or diagnosed within two weeks from the first dose immunization date

And we have those stats broken down by vaccination type and variant type, and comorbidities.

[BrightonCorgi]

1 hour ago, CommanderJWBond said:

I would be interested in seeing that information. I can’t find it and I am usually a ok internet sleuth.

Plenty of articles on this, but here is the first one I found on it

https://www.visiontimes.com/2021/08/08/israel-hospital-vaccinated.html

[BrightonCorgi]

1 hour ago, CommanderJWBond said:

Employers have the right to decide what the job requirements are.

In the US that is not true.  Employers are bound by local, state, and federal laws in many parts workforce. 

We even have a Democrat ideal that a business owners do not actually build or run their business by themselves.

 

[BrightonCorgi]

2 hours ago, Ryan said:

This is where data can be misleading. Saying that 98-99% of Israeli Covid deaths are among the vaccinated is not true.

I did not say that.  I said that percent are in the hospital.

[Ryan]

27 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

I did not say that.  I said that percent are in the hospital.

I apologise. I misunderstood. I naively understood that "opposite" would be used as a reference to the same measurement, as the post you quoted referred to "deaths".

Again, apologies.

[rcarlson]

2 hours ago, CommanderJWBond said:

Employers have the right to decide what the job requirements are.

I don’t care what anyone does, but it will be interesting for some employers...

As an example at my work, while anyone is replaceable, the number of people who would quit if forced into a vaccine makes that group as a whole not replaceable. Therefore I am nearly certain it will never be required. But we don’t interact with the general public so it’s not like our business will be affected either way like an airline might.

Lookout.  Such a cut and dried approach to permissible employer restrictions is mighty slippery when dealing with disparate treatment in the workforce under any criteria.  For example, only a small percentage of racial minorities are vaxed in the U.S.  I'm certain you can imagine why that is problematic.    

 https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/

Available means of support/employment for any group, be it ethnic, religious, gender, profession, etc., in any particular location is hardly one size fits all and can't be so easily brushed aside. 

I see that de Blasio enacted an absolute proof of vaccination mandate in NYC for any indoor leisure activities (bars, restaurants, performances etc.) regardless of prior infection, medical conditions, age, access or anything else.  This is in a city where only 28% of African Americans aged 18 to 44 are vaxed.  Yes, that's a dubious government mandate, but the same problems with the mandate still pertain to unfettered discretion residing in the decisions of individual businesses of its customers or employees.

 https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/13/nyregion/vaccination-rates-in-nyc-and-one-major-disparity.html      

There are alot of layers to the issue no matter where you come down on the issue.  

[Cairo]

39 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

I see that de Blasio enacted an absolute proof of vaccination mandate in NYC for any indoor leisure activities (bars, restaurants, performances etc.) regardless of prior infection, medical conditions, age, access or anything else.  This is in a city where only 28% of African Americans aged 18 to 44 are vaxed.

I fully expect that this will be like Prohibition--a secret handshake or "I got sent here by Joe" will gain entrance to "illegal" bars, restaurants etc hidden in back rooms or basements, guarded by organized crime thugs.

New Yorkers are very clever at doing what they want to do....