Should Employers have the right to request staff be vaccinated?

[El Presidente]

Take three deep breaths. clear your head and tell yourself " This is not a US political thread"  no one cares which team you cheer for 

This is a big issue locally that has employers scratching their heads. Particularly private  employers in retail, travel and health. 

The Federal Government here has dropped the ball on the issue (like the vaccine rollout) and thrown the issue back to employers with the recommendation to "seek legal advice". The Govt are F***wits.  Like death and taxes, it is a universal maxim. 

Is it an issue in your part of the world? if not, why not and how has it been handled?

In a world where at an interview you can no longer ask personal details of a prospective employee..........should you be able to make it a condition of employment that Covid 19 vaccinations (and boosters down the line) are required. 

Is it a can of worms? Is it the thin edge of the wedge? Is it simply protecting the cafe owner from losing his house when his non vaccinated barrista passes on CV19 to an immune compromised customer who subsequently passes away? 

Intelligent, non emotional, non political input always welcome 

[NSXCIGAR]

I feel great about having literally no opinion on this. I have a feeling a deep intellectual dive on this is too much mental effort.

I will say that if there is any employer liability then they have no choice. Don't doubt for a second any employee that gets it (or thinks they got it) at work will be looking to sue. 

[Hammer Smokin']

yes.

[Dozerhead]

I work in the home health industry. My employer requests that all field staff get vaccinated but they don't mandate it. On a side note, more and more of our patients are requesting vaccinated clinicians only.

[Hammer Smokin']

I should mention employees also have the right to find a new employer who doesn't require it - or become their own employer. 

[El Presidente]

5 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I have a feeling a deep intellectual dive on this is too much mental effort.

No doubt. Still the situation is being dealt with or about to be dealt with around the world.  How is it being handled at govt (legislation?) or private business level. What is best practice that balances risk and privacy. Can there even be best practice?

There are plenty of members with skin in the game here. It will be enlightening to hear their viewpoints and I suspect many of them will be conflicted about the decisions they are faced with. 

 

[rcarlson]

I don't feel like there's enough information on the risks of the unvaccinated on the vaccinated, and not much consideration for the effect of the unvaccinated but naturally immune.  I am certain there is no "best practice" and that takes me to a firmly held default position: no.          

[teamrandr]

Private companies should be allowed to hire who they see fit for their business.   Thats is how I see it.

[Yigal]

So long as the vaccinated are still getting Covid and not immune, and we still have no data on long term effects of the vaccine, then a mandate should not be imposed on anyone.  This is a very touchy subject.  Fear makes people do things they really do not want to do.  I respect everyone's stance on this, but keep your stance to yourself, and let me keep mine to myself as well.  That is my belief.  For every person who says you must vaccinate, there is another that says you mustn't.  I feel we all have to do our best in making sure we are as safe as possible in crowded areas.  That's my $0.02 worth . . .

[teamrandr]

8 minutes ago, Yigal said:

So long as the vaccinated are still getting Covid and not immune, and we still have no data on long term effects of the vaccine, then a mandate should not be imposed on anyone.  This is a very touchy subject.  Fear makes people do things they really do not want to do.  I respect everyone's stance on this, but keep your stance to yourself, and let me keep mine to myself as well.  That is my belief.  For every person who says you must vaccinate, there is another that says you mustn't.  I feel we all have to do our best in making sure we are as safe as possible in crowded areas.  That's my $0.02 worth . . .

All that said a private company should be allowed to hire who they see fit for their company.  

[SCgarman]

I will throw the question back to you Mr. Ayala, since you are an employer and own a company. What will you require? Just curious. Feel free to opine or tell me to bugger off! 😁

BTW, I am not employed, so I have no skin in the game FWIW.

[El Presidente]

3 minutes ago, NYgarman said:

I will throw the question back to you Mr. Ayala, since you are an employer and own a company. What will you require? Just curious. Feel free to opine or tell me to bugger off! 😁

BTW, I am not employed, so I have no skin in the game FWIW.

Hence the reason for the post!

There are far smarter people than me on FOH and I always love reading the intelligent thoughts of others (covering all sides)  before coming to my own decision. 

This is not an easy one for me.  I am by nature a questioner, distrustful of government/institutions and to an extent a non conformer.  That doesn't make me an anti Vaxxer. I am fully vaccinated. 

I am also an employer with serious responsibilities for the health of my staff and customers. That is particularly relevent to our cafe.  I also love my staff and there may be one or more who for various reasons do not wish to be vaccinated. I will talk with them about it.  

The rules in the US may be different but an employer here simply can't get rid of a staff member because they hold a different view on a subject. I would be before the Fair Work Commission and publicly crucified before my next AMEX statement arrived. 

The one time the Federal Government could provide some required certainty (immunity from legal action) they have gone weak as piss and advised the entire business community to "seek legal advice" and proceed as you see fit.   I see fit to see them kicked out. 

 

 

[DaBoot]

Tough one. I want to say no. But they do have the right to say yes. But with personal choice,( religious personal preference)where do we draw the line.????

 The employee can go find new work elsewhere, 

 can I per say as an employer, not hire someone because they are overweight??

[Zebra]

No way should they have that right. People should not be forced to accept a medical procedure in order to work, especially not an experimental and potentially very dangerous one. And it is very much experimental at this stage. The arguments against this point are severely lacking in substance. There are many experts who are against the vaccines. Professor Mike Yeadon, former head of epidemiology at Pfizer is just one extremely qualified example. It’s also worth remembering that the current vaccines do not stop or even apparently reduce transmission of the virus.

The Nuremberg code should also protect against any kind of coercion when it comes to these jabs. The fact that it looks like it won’t only further proves something very fishy is happening on a global scale.

Employers have not historically had the right to pry into or dictate the medical treatment of their employees. At least not where I live.

We live in a raging sea of bought and paid for propaganda surrounding this pandemic and alleged solutions to it. I’m very fearful of what’s happening. Much more so than I am of the virus. 

Dark days ahead It seems.

[Hemclas]

From what I understand the vaccine doesn't keep you from getting the virus or keep you from spreading the virus.  I got the vaccine because the data has been very consistent showing that it reduces the severity.

 

[JY0]

Once it’s fully approved, yes. 

[LLC]

Some big companies are saying any new employees must be vaccinated and that is an easy one to do. Not sure about elsewhere but in Canada there is something called constructive dismissal which basically means your employer changed the terms of your employment in a significant way against your wishes. You then quit but effectively it’s like they fired you and they owe you full severance pay. 
 

In the US severance for most workers is not much but in Canada it can be a significant sum. 
 

it will be interesting if a Canadian company makes it mandatory and then if the constructive dismissal argument works. 

[Hammer Smokin']

12 minutes ago, DaBoot said:

Tough one. I want to say no. But they do have the right to say yes. But with personal choice,( religious personal preference)where do we draw the line.????

 The employee can go find new work elsewhere, 

 can I per say as an employer, not hire someone because they are overweight??

Yes, in fact, many jobs require you to be physically active. They usually label the job description with things like "Must be able to left X pounds over your head", or "must be able to work in a fast paced active environment". 

 

[JY0]

We have one employee out of 10 that hasn’t been vaccinated. I own a retail pet supply store. Once the vaccine is fully approved we will ask the hold out to be vaccinated. We pay 100% health insurance for full timers.  If she chooses not to she will be asked to shoulder a chunk of her own health insurance. Our customers have to have confidence that shopping with us is as safe as it can be. 

[bassistheplace]

No

[GaryK 54]

I believe employers certainly have the right to suggest employees be vaccinated, but not the right to require it.

[Cairo]

26 minutes ago, DaBoot said:

 can I per say as an employer, not hire someone because they are overweight??

You nailed it.   That is _the_ issue imho.   If you can fire someone for not meeting the fitness requirements, then I am OK with allowing other health related requirements--otherwise it is unfair double standard.   The reality is that obesity is a far better predictor of major health problems than vaccination status.

[Ken Gargett]

23 minutes ago, DaBoot said:

Tough one. I want to say no. But they do have the right to say yes. But with personal choice,( religious personal preference)where do we draw the line.????

 The employee can go find new work elsewhere, 

 can I per say as an employer, not hire someone because they are overweight??

an overweight person is not likely to kill the bloke in the next cubicle. unless they accidentally sit on them.

for those clinging on to the concept of the vaccinated getting it, every report i have found says that in the very minor number of cases where this happens, the result is a much less severe dose. so relying on that, without further evidence, is not likely to fly. 

the key is in rob's question - high contact. if it was not high contact then there might be an argument. but for high contact, there should be no argument at all. in fact, it should be taken out of the employer's hands and made compulsory, though sadly those elected to enforce such issues are truly dumber than the proverbial bag of rocks (looking at you, premier pumpkin). 

[mprach024]

It’s their Business, it’s their choice.  What?  NOW we are going to selectively scale back what rights employers have to run their businesses?  Funny.

[Fuzz]

An employer has the responsibility to maintain the health and safety of their workers and customers. So I see no reason why an employer shouldn't have the right to request all staff are vaccinated. As an employer, I am responsible at the end of the day. If a worker comes in ill because they didn't get vaccinated, putting at risk the health of other employees, I have to shut down my business till the all clear is given. That affects not only me, but everybody I employ and my customers. I have to limit or mitigate the potential risks.

It is just like when I hire staff to unload containers. I have specific requirements to do the job; over 18 (I had to put this in when an agency sent a 16yr old to my warehouse to unload a 28mt 40' container), physically fit, able to lift 20kg above shoulder height, minimum height 5'6"/170cm (due to pallet stacking height), etc. This is for the safety of the worker. I don't want someone who is unfit or can't lift the weight, as they will most likely injure themselves doing the job. Who is responsible then? The employer for giving the person the job, or the employee for taking it? According to Australian law, the employer is responsible.

On the other side, the employee has the right to find work elsewhere if they do not like the work conditions, and should not be penalised for quitting on those grounds.