Best wishes to the people of Cuba-

[Corylax18]

3 hours ago, Monocle said:

Isn't the systemic underreporting of COVID-19 cases more plausible than something "un-natural"? COVID is where I'd put my money if I were a gambling man.

Its possible, but these guys aren't circulating around the General population much. Why would they? Im still leaning heavily towards a purge. Its interesting to see that one of the Original that was with The Castro's in Sierra Meastra was offed too. That group were the "Hero's of the Revolution" He must have REALLY pissed someone off. 

[dgixxer252525]

Mexico and the US have a tense relationship at best. I can’t stand the blockade nonsense though because it seems to be an agenda that is constantly getting pushed by certain people on this site. It’s rubbish. This Mexican shipment of goods will be given to a select type of person in Cuba, and others will still be left hungry. 

[El Presidente]

It really is a matter of people just educating themselves on the embargo and it’s effects.

To say there is no embargo is a lie. There is certainly an enforced financial systems embargo + punitive measures prohibiting foreign companies with US interests from dealing directly with Cuba.

To say that the embargo is the cause of all of Cuba’s problems is a lie. The govt is incompetent and corrupt.

People will push their particular wheelbarrow. Like most things, the truth is a mix of the two.

[ElJavi76]

So what punitive measures will Mexico suffer from sending fuel, oxygen, and food to Cuba?  Two of those three might seem like they're intended for "el pueblo" (the people)... but I wonder how that fuel will get distributed. 

The embargo is internal. They choose and pick who gets the aid. Diaz Canel sent a letter asking for aid cause he wants to save face pretending he's worried about his dying citizens... falling like flies from covid. What is really happening is the cartels owe DC some favors and he's calling those in. AMLO does what he's told. Not sure I've ever heard a peep out of Mexico in the past about any embargo. 

Bottom line... the communists need to pack it up and gtfo our island. 

[dgixxer252525]

“punitive measures prohibiting foreign companies with US interests from dealing directly with Cuba.”

 

This sounds like the companies have a choice on what they want to do. Doesn’t sound like a forced embargo. I am telling you that the embargo is rubbish. I am telling you that it’s an internal blockade. The USA is not the big bad wolf.  Where did all of the cooking oil come from that was given out yesterday in Havana? They were in a desperate shortage of cooking oil just 5 days ago. Yesterday there were pallets of it.  I am open to discussion and learning new things, but from people who are closer to the situation than I am. I live in FL, I’m in a heavily populated almost purely Cuban community, and have family inside the island.

[El Presidente]

Just now, ElJavi76 said:

So what punitive measures will Mexico suffer from sending fuel, oxygen, and food to Cuba? 

I can't see any.

State owned ships, no money transacted. Mexico co-operation required by the US  in other more pressing areas. Not worth pursuing.

 

 

[El Presidente]

5 minutes ago, dgixxer252525 said:

 I am open to discussion and learning new things, but from people who are closer to the situation than I am. I live in FL, I’m in a heavily populated almost purely Cuban community, and have family inside the island.

 

Sometimes a little separation provides perspective.  Hence the saying "can't see the wood for the trees" .

[Ken Gargett]

11 minutes ago, dgixxer252525 said:

“punitive measures prohibiting foreign companies with US interests from dealing directly with Cuba.”

 

This sounds like the companies have a choice on what they want to do. Doesn’t sound like a forced embargo. I am telling you that the embargo is rubbish. I am telling you that it’s an internal blockade. The USA is not the big bad wolf.  Where did all of the cooking oil come from that was given out yesterday in Havana? They were in a desperate shortage of cooking oil just 5 days ago. Yesterday there were pallets of it.  I am open to discussion and learning new things, but from people who are closer to the situation than I am. I live in FL, I’m in a heavily populated almost purely Cuban community, and have family inside the island.

so it would not be unfair to suggest that you come from a community which has a very biased view (not saying an incorrect one, just biased). 

as has been hashed over endlessly on this forum, the vast majority of members all want what is best for the nation and the people and not many would think that means the current government staying in power. we'd all love to see their removal happen. we just don't all agree how best to achieve it. 

you suggest the relevant companies in rob's comment have a choice. correct, but not much of a one. they can deal with cuba and cop the punishment or not deal with them. like saying i have a choice whether i pay taxes or not. sure, i could refuse but i will cop the punishment. 

i agree with you that the embargo is internal to the extent that it gives the govt great ammunition, which they have  used extremely well over 60 years to stay in power. but it is on the books in the States. and enforced (as suits them at any particular time). to suggest otherwise is simply silly. 

i still remain convinced that the best way to start down the path for freedom for the cuban people is to lift the embargo (it should never have been imposed in the first place). it is disgraceful that it is still in place.

not suggesting that all will be roses immediately. it will be a long hard road but if you remove the embargo, you remove the main plank that has held up the house of castro and those following for decades. 

[ElJavi76]

5 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

I can't see any.

State owned ships, no money transacted. Mexico co-operation required by the US  in other more pressing areas. Not worth pursuing.

 

 

So this can be viewed as grandstanding by Mexico. As @Corylax18 pointed out... one of Mexico's biggest exports is poor people. Are they done feeding their own and providing a safe place to live for so many border towns drowning in blood?

Btw there's only so much "free" stuff, aka aid, countries are willing to give away. The biggest reason countries don't bother dealing with Cuba, among many others (embargo presumably one of those), is that Cuba is Mala-Paga. They don't pay their bills. Mostly cause the communists have ran that country into the ground. 

[El Presidente]

Just now, ElJavi76 said:

The biggest reason countries don't bother dealing with Cuba, among many others (embargo presumably one of those), is that Cuba is Mala-Paga. They don't pay their bills. Mostly cause the communists have ran that country into the ground. 

Agreed. Incompetence and embargo ramifications  = not worth dealing with 

[ElJavi76]

7 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

we just don't all agree how best to achieve it.

No Ken... I think we can all agree that ditching communism would achieve the best outcome. I say the best because even with turmoil and a power vacuum in Havana... anything would be better than the current 62 year fiasco.

8 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

still remain convinced that the best way to start down the path for freedom for the cuban people is to lift the embargo

Do you think that without an embargo ... the communists prosper OR would they get life lines from sympathizing governments not wanting to deal with ramifications from US today?  It's an honest question Ken... not trying to bait you. 

On the biased point above... touchè. Daniel is biased. I'm biased. Millions of Cubans that got out are biased. It's because we feel directly impacted by communism. Like they've taken something directly from us. I won't speak for anyone else, but I won't apologize for wanting those rats out of control and out of the country. 

[dgixxer252525]

Welcome to the party Ken. Just in time for another lesson! It would be incorrect to assume that my community is biased. Many of the Cuban Americans that I live around are called Tampeños and are very liberal and anti anything rebublican and/or conservative. These people’s families came in the 30s and 40s and generally have quite a disdain for Post- Castro Cubans. I hear both sides regularly at the coffee shops while eating my media-noche and drinking my colada…Interestingly enough, most of these Tampeños came to Tampa from Cuba to roll cigars. 

I think it is silly to lift the embargo. Sure more people will have the luxuries of modern society, but they would still not be free. These protestors aren’t in the streets yelling “comida” or “medicina”….they are yelling “libertad.” 
 

when my grandfather was imprisoned in Cuba, he had a good life. Had a car, a house, and even a TV. He could have lived without those things he used to say. What he couldn’t live without was freedom…that’s what this is about. 

[Meklown]

2 minutes ago, ElJavi76 said:

ditching communism would achieve the best outcome

I think ditching corruption would achieve the best outcome. No use going all "land of the free" if the governments still siphon everything for themselves

[ElJavi76]

4 minutes ago, Meklown said:

I think ditching corruption would achieve the best outcome. No use going all "land of the free" if the governments still siphon everything for themselves

Is there corruption at every level of every govt, communist or not? Of course there is. 

One thing at a time... let's ditch communism first! It's the most egregious and glaring factor. I'm sure it won't be smooth or corruption free but it'll be a hell of a start.

[Ken Gargett]

Just now, ElJavi76 said:

No Ken... I think we can all agree that ditching communism would achieve the best outcome. I say the best because even with turmoil and a power vacuum in Havana... anything would be better than the current 62 year fiasco.

Do you think that without an embargo ... the communists prosper OR would they get life lines from sympathizing governments not wanting to deal with ramifications from US today?  It's an honest question Ken... not trying to bait you. 

On the biased point above... touchè. Daniel is biased. I'm biased. Millions of Cubans that got out are biased. It's because we feel directly impacted by communism. Like they've taken something directly from us. I won't speak for anyone else, but I won't apologize for wanting those rats out of control and out of the country. 

first, i am not being critical of you being biased. i've no doubt i would be as well, in your shoes. but rob's point on not seeing the wood for the trees is a good one. we'd all love them out. 

the fact that you ask the second question shows that you are wrong about the first. we don't all agree. sure, dumping communism is an obvious part of it but there is much more to it. and how to achieve that. that is where we differ. 

you say 'dump communism'. terrific. i am 100% on board. but how? bay of pigs didn't quite work out. attempts to assassinate fidel made the states look a bit dim. the embargo? well, it has been there for 60 years and so have the communists, so perhaps that might be worth a crack?  

the question about support from other countries is a good one. one has to assume that russia is out. they have had their chance and ran away. if it is from other dodgy govts in south america, not sure that has a very long life ahead of it. the problem would be china but that would bring in an entirely new and potentially much more dangerous situation. it would be a terrifying thought, but certainly not out of the question. but that said, the embargo probably makes not a single bit of difference to china as to whether it supports the communists in cuba or not. they may use it as a trigger, but they'd have a hard time spinning the need to assist being based on the removal of a hardship for the people. more likely that if they want to be involved, they use the existence of the embargo as a reason.  

finally, the concept of feeling as though they have taken something from you i understand, but it raises the issue of whether you/others think they'll get anything back. that will be one giant mess at the time. if just getting them out is enough, well and good, but if people expect to walk back into houses they owned 60 years ago, not so easy. 

[Meklown]

5 minutes ago, ElJavi76 said:

Is there corruption at every level of every govt, communist or not? Of course there is. 

One thing at a time... let's ditch communism first! It's the most egregious and glaring factor. I'm sure it won't be smooth or corruption free but it'll be a hell of a start.

I'm in absolutely no way advocating for communism, but compared to the sh*tshow that is happening now .. I would be happy to see real communism in place where everyone gets equal shares. (okay, assume there is some corruption and the govt takes double). It would already mean a lot more for the people, which is what matters to me.

[El Presidente]

10 minutes ago, ElJavi76 said:

 

Do you think that without an embargo ... the communists prosper OR would they get life lines from sympathizing governments not wanting to deal with ramifications from US today?  It's an honest question Ken... not trying to bait you. 

 

Javi, I want Jose, Carlos, Jorge etc  and their families to prosper. I wan't all Cubans to prosper as a result of their own endeavour.

Let's maybe start there by providing the necssary tools. 

Independent communications infratrusture/offshore banking access (revolut etc). There are other ways to screw the govt without resorting to a scorched earth policy. 

[ElJavi76]

3 minutes ago, Meklown said:

I'm in absolutely no way advocating for communism, but compared to the sh*tshow that is happening now .. I would be happy to see real communism in place where everyone gets equal shares. (okay, assume there is some corruption and the govt takes double). It would already mean a lot more for the people, which is what matters to me.

Real communism is what Fidel promised. Fair shares. Kicking the imperialists out. Then the real real communism kicked in. Here we are. 

[Ken Gargett]

12 minutes ago, dgixxer252525 said:

Welcome to the party Ken. Just in time for another lesson! It would be incorrect to assume that my community is biased. Many of the Cuban Americans that I live around are called Tampeños and are very liberal and anti anything rebublican and/or conservative. These people’s families came in the 30s and 40s and generally have quite a disdain for Post- Castro Cubans. I hear both sides regularly at the coffee shops while eating my media-noche and drinking my colada…Interestingly enough, most of these Tampeños came to Tampa from Cuba to roll cigars. 

I think it is silly to lift the embargo. Sure more people will have the luxuries of modern society, but they would still not be free. These protestors aren’t in the streets yelling “comida” or “medicina”….they are yelling “libertad.” 
 

when my grandfather was imprisoned in Cuba, he had a good life. Had a car, a house, and even a TV. He could have lived without those things he used to say. What he couldn’t live without was freedom…that’s what this is about. 

 

i'm sure the community is not 100% in agreement, same as anywhere, but i think you'd have a hard time convincing many of us that there is not an overwhelming, say we say, trend as to what they think/feel/believe/want.

but thanks for the lesson. 

and one small one for you in return, if i may. read what is written.

at no stage have i mentioned medicines, TVs, cars and so forth. the only mention of a house was after your post and in a different context. i have only ever seen this being about freedom. the rest will follow. 

basically, as we have discussed in numerous posts earlier than this one, some people believe that the embargo works against the govt. others, like myself, believe that it gives the govt the crutch it needs to continue. blame the USA. i have never believed that lifting it will cure all ills but i do think it is a start. or at the very least, worth a try. the embargo hasn't worked and it has been there for 60 years. how many years do you think it should have? 

[dgixxer252525]

Your welcome Ken. I’m here for you any time you want to learn more about Cuba and Cubans in general. Those guys in the island aren’t telling y’all the whole story. If they did, they’d be in jail…

[ElJavi76]

1 minute ago, El Presidente said:

Independent communications infratrusture/offshore banking access (revolut etc). There are other ways to screw the govt without resorting to a scorched earth policy. 

I've never once mentioned on here that I want seal team six on the ground in Havana. I told Jorge during one of my visits... the day change comes to Cuba I hope it comes from within. I'm pretty sure I don't want/need a Starbucks or a Costco in Pinar del Rio. Never suggested any scorched earth or military intervention by any single nation. 

Let's not lose sight of one thing... this is beyond hungry people or sick people. Human rights are being trampled every second of every day. Last page on this thread was about how they're whacking out generals. This isn't about not having proper banking options. We're talking about a murderous regime. Get them out... then we can deal freely with whoever NOT THEM is. 

[El Presidente]

Just now, ElJavi76 said:

I've never once mentioned on here that I want seal team six on the ground in Havana. I told Jorge during one of my visits... the day change comes to Cuba I hope it comes from within. I'm pretty sure I don't want/need a Starbucks or a Costco in Pinar del Rio. Never suggested any scorched earth or military intervention by any single nation. 

Let's not lose sight of one thing... this is beyond hungry people or sick people. Human rights are being trampled every second of every day. Last page on this thread was about how they're whacking out generals. This isn't about not having proper banking options. We're talking about a murderous regime. Get them out... then we can deal freely with whoever NOT THEM is. 

We are largely in agreement. 

I just think it is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time. ie continue to kick the govt in the nuts while providing tools to empower local cubans to take possession of their destiny. In the end it is up to them to change things. 

 

 

[Corylax18]

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

others, like myself, believe that it gives the govt the crutch it needs to continue. blame the USA.

Cuban CItizens stopped believing that Line of crap years ago. As a proud U.S. citizen in Cuba, I've never, ever had a negative interaction with a Cuban when I told them where I was from. From Pdr to Santiago. It was usually the exact opposite, excitement/encouragement.  

I wore American Flag Swim Trunks when I dove Bay of Pigs, American Flag air fresheners for cars, Thumb drives packed to the gills with American programing, Chocolates (even from Hershey). I don't remember getting as much as a sideways look. 

Most Cubans have family and friends in the U.S. and understand very well that U.S. citizens mostly dont support the embargo and they dont hold the people responsible for it. 

[ElJavi76]

16 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

but it raises the issue of whether you/others think they'll get anything back

I just want my country back Ken. I'm not asking for reparations or acres of land they stole from my grandfather. I just want freedom for my family that still lives there. To get messages from them that don't read like this one

Primo:
Esto aqui esta malo malo primo aqui no hay nada de nada esto esta de p****a.

Y cada día c pone mas malo

Translation... there's nothing available here and it's getting worse daily. 

As far as personal reparations I don't care for a handout from what they took. I just want to be able to travel there freely and maybe buy a lil house by the beach to spend my winters on the island that birthed me. 

[Ken Gargett]

1 minute ago, ElJavi76 said:

I just want my country back Ken. I'm not asking for reparations or acres of land they stole from my grandfather. I just want freedom for my family that still lives there. To get messages from them that don't read like this one

Primo:
Esto aqui esta malo malo primo aqui no hay nada de nada esto esta de p****a.

Y cada día c pone mas malo

Translation... there's nothing available here and it's getting worse daily. 

As far as personal reparations I don't care for a handout from what they took. I just want to be able to travel there freely and maybe buy a lil house by the beach to spend my winters on the island that birthed me. 

i think that if others share that attitude then there is more chance of getting something achieved.