vaccines v herd immunity

[Hammer Smokin']

great post!

the scary part is there is someone reading this, right now, thinking is the 14K difference in deaths (Sweden vs Finland) worth the "crippling" of the economy? Further, that person will respond "the flu kills 14K a year", with no evidence provided, and follow with "why shut down the economy for what works out to be the Flu?"

the two sides have exhausted the issue to the point I can anticipate every response to every point. Social media has made us all drones that follow what they read, and regurgitate to the point the message never changes, just the deliverer does. 

[El Presidente]

2 hours ago, ElJavi76 said:

I'm not some vaccine nazi. I just think I'll take my chances with this one. 

 

I absolutely respect your choice and if it weren't for the fact that I want/need to travel internationally, I would be joining you.

Unfortunately it is increasingly looking like a covid vaccine (possibly annual) will be required to travel internationally and that includes Cuba. 

[ElJavi76]

8 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

 

I absolutely respect your choice and if it weren't for the fact that I want/need to travel internationally, I would be joining you.

Unfortunately it is increasingly looking like a covid vaccine (possibly annual) will be required to travel internationally and that includes Cuba. 

Rob I totally understand and I'll make a decision on vaccination when it impedes my lifestyle. 

So far, international travel has required negative covid tests. That seems like a sound way to avoid traveling with infected passengers. Just cause you're vaccinated doesn't mean you can't contract it or spread it to others. What good is a covid passport if you still get it from a fellow vaccinated compadre? If I'm allowed to travel with a negative test (like I'm doing this June to Turks and Caicos), then I'll be more than happy to provide said results. 

[rcarlson]

27 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

 

I absolutely respect your choice and if it weren't for the fact that I want/need to travel internationally, I would be joining you.

Unfortunately it is increasingly looking like a covid vaccine (possibly annual) will be required to travel internationally and that includes Cuba. 

My primary reason for getting vaxed too.  I felt like I'd have professional or travel obligations that would arise without enough time to get fully vaxed.  If it weren't for those two things, I would probably hold off.  I fault no one else's choice on the matter either way.  

[Corylax18]

1 hour ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

great post!

the scary part is there is someone reading this, right now, thinking is the 14K difference in deaths (Sweden vs Finland) worth the "crippling" of the economy? Further, that person will respond "the flu kills 14K a year", with no evidence provided, and follow with "why shut down the economy for what works out to be the Flu?"

the two sides have exhausted the issue to the point I can anticipate every response to every point. Social media has made us all drones that follow what they read, and regurgitate to the point the message never changes, just the deliverer does. 

It was actually more than double that in the US during the 18-19 season and double that the season previous. At least according to the CDC, for what that's worth.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html#:~:text=vaccination uptake11.-,Conclusion,the 2018–2019 influenza season.

Americans accepted Tens of thousands of flu related deaths, every year, for decades. Car accidents and heart disease too. All preventable. Deaths from both car accidents and regular flu variants plummeted during the pandemic. 

So if we keep following your logic (there is no acceptable level of incidental death) any person who suggests reopening anything at all is a monster and is at least partially responsible for any increase in deaths related to these causes in the future? 

What causes and quantities of deaths are acceptable to get back to a functioning economy for everyone? You mentioned 14k was too many. 2020-2021 may be the first flu season recorded with fewer than 14k deaths from the flu in the US. Do you really think the winter of 2020-21 should set the standard for the future? Or are you actually comfortable with more than 14k people dying from viral infections every year in another country? 

[CaptainQuintero]

12 minutes ago, ElJavi76 said:

Rob I totally understand and I'll make a decision on vaccination when it impedes my lifestyle. 

So far, international travel has required negative covid tests. That seems like a sound way to avoid traveling with infected passengers. Just cause you're vaccinated doesn't mean you can't contract it or spread it to others. What good is a covid passport if you still get it from a fellow vaccinated compadre? If I'm allowed to travel with a negative test (like I'm doing this June to Turks and Caicos), then I'll be more than happy to provide said results. 

 I've seen this posted a few times and it probably needs pulling up on, or at least clarified. Even after just one vaccine shot, transmission is reduced by around 70% from someone infected due to the effect on reduced viral load/shedding if you become infected with the virus after a shot. The chances however of catching it are also lowered due to the same reasons; the virus struggles to attach to the respiratory tract on vaccinated individuals.

  It goes without saying the effect of the vaccines on the severity of the virus is massive also. 100% efficacy against severe or critical disease and hospitalisation.

If you manage to catch it after being vaccinated, and are severely ill, and are hospitalised, and don't respond to the therapeutics then unfortunately you're in the group that are already very imminently going to die already

 

 

  

  It's a personal choice whether to get vaccinated, or even which vaccine is right for you. But the science doesn't change because of opinion. 

[joeypots]

1 hour ago, ElJavi76 said:

I'll take my chances means, I deny modern medical advances and despise doctors? Lol 

I think I explained my stance above. You wanted to twist my words into some bravado that sneezes at medicine. That's a lot of inferring from your behalf. If you can read hearts and minds you have a career as a Tarot card reader or an Astrolger.

It's the equivalent of me saying... sounds like you're fantasizing about negating medical care to those who chose to not get vaccinated. For now, you're just going with the consensus of doctors who have established what is or isn't ethical in their practice. But I'm not in your head, so I'll refrain from such accusations.

Quote

What is contagious is my Healthcare costs rising due to folks who make poor choices. Maybe if insurance companies started charging according to those life choices we would have healthier Americans.

The number of deaths from covid among healthy middle aged men are low. And I repeat, I keep reading things here like "this is the closest thing we have to a cure". That is beyond dishonest and just a way to coerce people to mindlessly jump aboard.

I'm just pointing out that you minimize the severity of Covid, I state anecdotally that I have seen how terrible it can be, that you reference the idea that people who engage in risky behavior raise the collective cost of health care, and you deny the efficacy and safety of the vaccines. So, I'm not twisting your words.

Quote

And I repeat, I keep reading things here like "this is the closest thing we have to a cure"

If you don't believe the  what the CDC says about the vaccine it's effective and it slows the spread of covid, there is nothing anyone can do to make you. 

 

Having been around here a while I know that engaging in these types of threads is foolish. I doubt anyone's mind is changed by anything written on a cigar massage board. 

 

 

[Corylax18]

8 minutes ago, CaptainQuintero said:

 I've seen this posted a few times and it probably needs pulling up on, or at least clarified. Even after just one vaccine shot, transmission is reduced by around 70% from someone infected due to the effect on reduced viral load/shedding if you become infected with the virus after a shot. The chances however of catching it are also lowered due to the same reasons; the virus struggles to attach to the respiratory tract on vaccinated individuals.

  It goes without saying the effect of the vaccines on the severity of the virus is massive also. 100% efficacy against severe or critical disease and hospitalisation.

If you manage to catch it after being vaccinated, and are severely ill, and are hospitalised, and don't respond to the therapeutics then unfortunately you're in the group that are already very imminently going to die already

 

 

  

  It's a personal choice whether to get vaccinated, or even which vaccine is right for you. But the science doesn't change because of opinion. 

I agree the vaccine helps, but where in the world has it been 100% affective against sever/critical disease and hospitalization? That tweet mentions a small survey, with one vaccine. Not all vaccines, everywhere. Vaccinated people have died from the disease, that is fact. I would say that severe/critical disease would be a prerequisite for death, no?

[ElJavi76]

24 minutes ago, CaptainQuintero said:

reduced

Key word. There is no silver bullet like it's being touted. Maybe that's why some vaccinated folks have passed from covid. A lil too trusting. 

 

20 minutes ago, joeypots said:

you deny the efficacy

Show me where? I said they don't work? Again, you're reading into my statement. Fact, you get vaccine... you can still get covid. Fact, you get vaccine you can still die from covid. That's denying efficacy? Yikes bro.

My argument is that if you can still get covid, stop selling the thing like it's 100% clad proof... and you're yucky if you don't protect my family by not getting vaccinated. (Not attributing that quote to you personally, but that's the gist of the sentiment I get from certain more vaccinated, more virtuous folk than me.)

 

22 minutes ago, joeypots said:

cigar massage board

Best thing you typed all day. I'd rather discuss the rising prices of Cuban tobacco. 😂

For anyone curious... yes this had touched my life. My best friend's mother and brother both were taken by covid. My sister and my nephews had it and a few close friends have battled it and live to tell about it. I'm not pretending covid doesn't exist. 

[CaptainQuintero]

39 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

I agree the vaccine helps, but where in the world has it been 100% affective against sever/critical disease and hospitalization? That tweet mentions a small survey, with one vaccine. Not all vaccines, everywhere. Vaccinated people have died from the disease, that is fact. I would say that severe/critical disease would be a prerequisite for death, no?

 It was pretty much standard size for a phase 3 trial and it's the 'least effective' vaccine; Pfizer, Moderna are a couple of % higher in efficacy. But that was before real world numbers were available, now that's available with Israel and the UK. Israel reached herd immunity around second week of April and is averaging 1 death a week now (That's that group of people who are incredibly frail already), the UK supposedly hit herd immunity around a week ago and had it's first 1-death day a few days ago.

  It's pretty much matching trial data. As inhuman at it sounds, the death rates post full vaccination would now be classed as statistically negligible. 

  To put it in context the CDC have released data showing from 95,000,000 fully vaccinated people, 112 have died after catching Covid. We're talking incredibly frail, severely immunocompromised people

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html

[mprach024]

20 hours ago, El Presidente said:

That is not a US phenomenon. 

Constantly bitching about each other in public is. 

Well that’s a bit judgy Prez.  😂
 

On 5/4/2021 at 7:23 PM, El Presidente said:

Why is it that  US members can't help but beat themselves up on so many issues? 

It must be exhausting 

This is a rhetorical question 

End the thread here unless you can stay on track and leave politics (US again) out. 

 

Very Judgy indeed.......and stereotyping!  

Don’t you dare look down on us Prez!  Just a passionate people, stubborn, and always right.  Just ask us.  

[El Presidente]

We need a Zoom session to work it all out 

[Ken Gargett]

3 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

We need a Zoom session to work it all out 

so we can yell at each other over the computer. worst idea ever. 

next, aren't we supposed to be in a zoom meeting now?

 

[El Presidente]

5 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

so we can yell at each other over the computer. worst idea ever. 

next, aren't we supposed to be in a zoom meeting now?

 

Our Zoom sessions are full frontal...no holds barred. You would love them!

You just spent the first 5 minutes of our video review telling me the audio wasn't working............. then you worked out you had the volume level set to zero.  idiot 

[Meesterjojo]

Wow this debate gets hotter and hotter.

And I was just thinking about my patients that lived, that is the worst cases we thought wouldn't make it. The worst ones always develop a sort of dementia with their covid related disease. They become wild and uninhibited to a large degree. Problem is that we don't restrain folks.

Anyway, I was just thinking about some that had to come back for unrelated issues that lived through the worst. How happy I was they aren't still suffering from the dementia.

Then I thought I'd pop in here. Hehe, wow.

Can someone post when yall come to a consensus regarding this? 

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, Meesterjojo said:

 

Can someone post when yall come to a consensus regarding this? 

I don't think consensus is the aim. The teasing out of facts and their subsequent discussion in a respectful manner certainly is.

[brookeantoinette72]

On 4/28/2021 at 10:39 AM, Ken Gargett said:

really interesting read. sent to me by a scientist friend of mine who has done some work on the vaccine. 

 

https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/04/27/employee tracking-of-a-variant-of-concern-in-brazil/

Very interesting article! I recently acquired the book Deadliest Enemy: Our War Against Killer Germs by Michael T. Osterholm. I have not yet had time to read it in full, but there is a leading epidemiologist shares his "powerful and necessary" stories from the front lines of our war on infectious diseases and explains how to prepare for global epidemics, including about modern Covid.

in fact, I have already read about many cases of death and serious of vaccination. and this does not apply to a specific vaccine and company, these are several different vaccines, but this does not stop anyone from being vaccinated

[Meesterjojo]

35 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

I don't think consensus is the aim. The teasing out of facts and their subsequent discussion in a respectful manner certainly is.

I reckon. Though it seems to be running warm at times.

[El Presidente]

7 minutes ago, Meesterjojo said:

I reckon. Though it seems to be running warm at times.

We get it right around 95% of the time 

.......then ken finds the thread 

[Meesterjojo]

Has anyone brought up how many common drugs, at least in the US, are phase 3 trial drugs? And that phase 4 isn't much different? 

I should say that many common drugs were phase 3 for a long time before getting fda approval, but were allowed to hit the market.

It's common practice to push something to market and wait and see how things turn out. 

Aren't these vaccines still phase 3 also? 

I guess my point is, if it hasn't been discussed, why is there such concern over the vaccines that wasn't given to a myriad of drugs prior? Other than the obvious- we're all being obligated to take a vaccine to carry on our lives.

Let's not even get into the US and dietary recommendations being a 40 year test on an entire population causing enormous suffering. 

[Ken Gargett]

29 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

We get it right around 95% of the time 

.......then ken finds the thread 

be fair. i started this one!

[CaptainQuintero]

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

be fair. i started this one!

  Is the person who built the bomb to blame, or the one who lit the fuze?

[rcarlson]

3 minutes ago, CaptainQuintero said:

  Is the person who built the bomb to blame, or the one who lit the fuze?

Since it's the same person, the answer is "yes." 

[Corylax18]

16 hours ago, CaptainQuintero said:

 It was pretty much standard size for a phase 3 trial and it's the 'least effective' vaccine; Pfizer, Moderna are a couple of % higher in efficacy. But that was before real world numbers were available, now that's available with Israel and the UK. Israel reached herd immunity around second week of April and is averaging 1 death a week now (That's that group of people who are incredibly frail already), the UK supposedly hit herd immunity around a week ago and had it's first 1-death day a few days ago.

  It's pretty much matching trial data. As inhuman at it sounds, the death rates post full vaccination would now be classed as statistically negligible. 

  To put it in context the CDC have released data showing from 95,000,000 fully vaccinated people, 112 have died after catching Covid. We're talking incredibly frail, severely immunocompromised people

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html

As I've said, I agree with getting the vaccine, but this is just another example of bad numbers, or bad compilation methods. You drink your self to death, then test positive for Covid, so you definitely died of Covid. According to our current "medical experts." But if you get introduced to the virus intentionally (through a vaccine) then die, all of a sudden the CDC "can not establish a causal link." That's a steaming pile of B.S. A big one. The CDC is and has been juking the numbers from the start, same with state health departments. Colorado and New York are two very clear and easily proven cases of this. Everyone wants to say China was lying, but couldn't provide a shred of evidence. There is mountains of evidence proving the CDC has been willfully withholding of information, at best, flat out liars at the worst. 

The below linked article mentions over 4,178 deaths in the US after getting the vaccine, it was posted only 1 day after your article was, but they use "total doses administered" (another worthless, feel good metric) rather than total number fully vaccinated. If they wanted to make these statistics clear and easy to understand (they don't) they would be using the same metrics to track this stuff with as we continue. Not different metrics each day to paint the picture they want us to see. Either the numbers are right or they're wrong.

The numbers we're being shown definitely aren't right. That's easily proven.

I think you and I agree, for the most part. Its better for everyone if everyone gets the vaccine. I disagree with the willingness to pass along junk since and bad statistics to push your narrative though. Just like I disagree with anti vaxxers telling everyone its going to kill them or that its micro chipped, etc. Again, all without solid evidence. Pumping the conversation up with unsubstantiated statements of 100% safety doesn't contribute to the discussion. 

There is no single right answer here, I don't see why we cant all agree with that. 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

 

[CaptainQuintero]

1 hour ago, rcarlson said:

Since it's the same person, the answer is "yes." 

He knows what he's doing