vaccines v herd immunity

[Philc2001]

The dilemma, it seems to me, is that getting vaccinated is as much a personal choice as it is a global security concern. Given the mortality rate, the infectious nature of the virus, and no known medical treatments for the disease, It is difficult to separate oneself from the big picture and look at it strictly as a personal choice. 

The disease is communicable through the air, it has reached every corner on earth, and it is fatal. The moment you come within breathing distance of anyone else, there is risk of transmission, and potentially hastening someone's death. So unless you can remain in total isolation, fully quarantined, it should be obvious why vaccination cannot simply be a matter of personal choice.

Instinctively, the first line of defense against a pandemic is to keep it away by shutting down the borders, and encouraging self isolation. Next come the curfews and social restrictions, and if it continues to kill people, then forced quarantine and prosecution. Meanwhile you focus every resource possible on finding a cure. There isn't much flexibility in that playbook. The vaccine is the closest thing we have to cure at the moment, although it is not a cure strictly speaking. Deadly global pandemics are unique in terms of social order, once they start spreading within the borders, they cannot be eradicated until everyone worldwide collaborates, coordinates and cooperates. Hence, the US and other wealthy nations will fund vaccines for poorer nations, not out of pity, but for self preservation because as long as the virus survives it will be a persistent threat.  

The vaccines are free. Soon the vaccinated will be the majority throughout the community, towns and cities, then nationally, and then globally. Once the majority are vaccinated, and in control, they will make it next to impossible to avoid it. The vaccine will ultimately become mandatory throughout the globe, just as other common vaccines are. 

[SigSauer516]

Here's what I never understood and I can never get a straight answer on...

1. Sweden has had no real restrictions placed on its citizens. One would expect that Swedes would be dropping like flies...but they are not.

2. In the US, we have states like California and New York who impose very tough masking and social gathering restrictions while other states like Texas and Florida have very loose (if any at all) masking and social gathering restrictions. From what I hear on the news about COVID,  I'd expect that Texas and Florida's COVID cases (per capita) should be multiples of CA and NY...but they are not.

3. How does Taiwan whose population is 23M crammed in an area the size of postage stamp only have 7 or 8 COVID deaths and very little cases.  Same for Singapore and a few other Asian countries.

4. Why did the guy I see on Saturday, in the convertible (top down), by himself, have a mask on?  How scared/stupid can we get?

 

[SigSauer516]

4 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Why is it that  US members can't help but beat themselves up on so many issues? 

It must be exhausting 

This is a rhetorical question 

End the thread here unless you can stay on track and leave politics (US again) out. 

Because half of us think the other half are idiots

 

4 hours ago, Grateful13 said:

These statistics are pure propaganda and you know it. Anyone who died with a positive test within a month is a “covid death” regardless of what the actual cause of death is. 

The medical director for C(r)ook  County, IL got up on TV and said exactly that!  I'll never forget it! She said, we count it as a Covid death "even it is from a clear and alternate cause".  So in C(r)ook County if one drowned, committed suicide, died in a fire, or gotten eaten by an alligator and they had Covid in their system, it would be counted as a covid death.  There must've been some monetary incentive because that is bat shit crazy--even for Chicago.

[El Presidente]

7 minutes ago, SigSauer516 said:

Because half of us think the other half are idiots

That is not a US phenomenon. 

Constantly bitching about each other in public is. 

[Philc2001]

1 minute ago, SigSauer516 said:

The medical director for C(r)ook  County, IL got up on TV and said exactly that!  I'll never forget it! She said, we count it as a Covid death "even it is from a clear and alternate cause".  So in C(r)ook County if one drowned, committed suicide, died in a fire, or gotten eaten by an alligator and they had Covid in their system, it would be counted as a covid death.  There must've been some monetary incentive because that is bat shit crazy--even for Chicago.

I think these are somewhat exaggerated urban legends. But, there are some rational reasons for treating every case that comes into the hospital as a covid infected victim. Until this pandemic is overcome, first responders and medical workers cannot take an chances, they have to assume every patient they see is infectious. They spend their entire shift in a bubble of PPE, and have to take every precaution possible including changing their PPE between every patient they visit. It's not a pleasant environment to be in, constantly behind a mask for 8-12 hours, and covered in PPE head to toe every minute. So in a clinical emergency setting, basically every patient has to be treated as though they are infected, or you may not live to see the next patient.

[SigSauer516]

4 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

That is not a US phenomenon. 

Constantly bitching about each other in public is. 

Yeah, we even do that when we're gathered for a cigar.  Sacrilegious..I know. 

[Corylax18]

6 minutes ago, Philc2001 said:

I think these are somewhat exaggerated urban legends.

They aren't, at all. 

It happened so many times in Colorado that the CDPHE had to start reporting two numbers. The real number and the BS number they had been reporting, "Deaths Related to Covid" was what they called it. They were caught lying, flat out. They described their reporting method as "confusing", but that happens when you cant keep up with your own lies. 

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/05/14/coronavirus-montezuma-county-coroner-alcohol-poisoning-covid-death/

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/05/15/coronavirus-death-colorado-health/

[ElJavi76]

If I'm so responsible for my community's health, then I want them all up at 5 am to work out with me. You can set a yoga/gym mat in front of your house. We can have Richard Simmons in the middle of the street leading the workout. We can all eat wild caught salmon and brussel sprouts for dinner, and never drink 3 sodas a day again. 

Oh wait, what's that?... You're not that interested in being healthy after all.

I can argue that obesity and folks who don't pay attention to their health cost me and my family money every year. Healthcare premiums are what they are cause somebody had to have another doughnut. Healthcare premiums are pretty communicable too. Almost 200 BILLION are spent annually, just in the US, treating obesity related diseases. I take cash or card. 

[Islandboy]

Par for the course in US social media, everyone is conveniently placed in one box or the other by a vocal minority. There’s so much more to the bigger picture, and collateral damage impossible to foresee. We each take our best shot at improving the immediate future, somewhat blindly, and deal with the consequences, sometimes personally. That’s my take. Carry on. 

[El Presidente]

8 minutes ago, Islandboy said:

Par for the course in US social media, everyone is conveniently placed in one box or the other by a vocal minority. There’s so much more to the bigger picture, and collateral damage impossible to foresee. We each take our best shot at improving the immediate future, somewhat blindly, and deal with the consequences. That’s my take. Carry on. 

My 2 cents. 

Social media should be afforded all the respect of a paedophile ring. 

Politicians are not deities. They are all tossers and wankers to one extent or another who are on a special type of crack called power.   Political parties are simply crack houses where they hang out. 

We suffer political parties and politicians because that way we can keep an eye on these meglomaniacs. 

On the rare ocasions they actually get something right, know full well it was an accident. Trust none of them. 

Treat them like sausages. Keep the heat on and turn them over often. 

 

 

[MrBirdman]

35 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Politicians are not deities. They are all tossers and wankers to one extent or another who are on a special type of crack called power.   Political parties are simply crack houses where they hang out. 

From someone actively engaged with local to Congressional politics, this is truth. My rule of thumb for PA and most American politics: if you think something is bad, it’s usually worse. 

 What’s aggravated the situation is that social media and the nationalization of news media has fueled a celebritization of politics. This phenomenon transcends party and ideology - both news media and social media are a market for your attention. Clicks=profit.  And the people who drive clicks are the most outrageous or extreme.

Politics was never really noble, but over the past 15 years or so it’s transformed from “Mr  Smith Goes to Washington” to “Mrs. Kardashian runs Washington.”

 

[Cairo]

2 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

Politics was never really noble

You gave me the opening to tell a grandfather story.    My grandfather founded and ran a construction business whose largest customer was the state government.    When I was sixteen my summer job was as his chauffeur--he was grooming me to take over the business (which I later refused to do--for reasons you will see soon  🙂 ).

He always made broad claims that "all politicians are corrupt" but it was late in the summer when he decided to get into the real details.    Normally he would take me to eat lunch at a very fancy restaurant (because he was a gourmet and was trying to teach me that art as well).

But--today was all business "training day" and we drove far out into the countryside and visited a rural hot dog stand about twenty five miles from the state capitol.   

The guy at the hot dog stand immediately recognized my grandfather and they started laughing and joking and telling stories.    This was very strange--what was going on here?

My grandfather turned to me and said "this is where the business is done.    The politicians drive out here from the capitol and I give them suitcases full of cash."    The hot dog stand guy confirmed the story and then they started listing names which included every prominent state politician. 

So I turned to my grandfather and said:  "How can this work?   You submit sealed bids."

He laughed and said:  "Last I heard you weren't in the room when the jobs were awarded."

Bottom line--the good old days were very bad--and mass media coverage (as well as the education system) painted a very rosy picture of how politics worked.

[rcarlson]

8 hours ago, El Presidente said:

That is not a US phenomenon. 

Constantly bitching about each other in public is. 

Ahem. . . I beg to differ.  They just do it with Americans.  

[Fuzz]

23 hours ago, SigSauer516 said:

Here's what I never understood and I can never get a straight answer on...

3. How does Taiwan whose population is 23M crammed in an area the size of postage stamp only have 7 or 8 COVID deaths and very little cases.  Same for Singapore and a few other Asian countries.

 

1. Govt acted quickly in closing their borders, conducting contact tracing and testing, imposing lockdowns, restricting movement, temp screening inbound travellers, ramping up health care resources before they were needed etc.
2. They already have experience with similar viruses, eg SARS, H1N1, MERS etc, and had policies and plans in place to act swiftly.
3. All levels of Govt acted in unison to implement the plans.
4. Use of face masks are already widely used and accepted (eg Japan never issued an order for the public to wear face masks). Most people accepted social distancing, self-isolation and use of sanitisers to reduce transmission rates.
5. Different philosophy and mind set between Eastern and Western world, eg community vs individuality.

Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, China, Vietnam, Singapore all had different combination of actions, and had different levels of success, but the death rate is far lower than seen in Western countries.

[rcarlson]

[Cigar Surgeon]

16 hours ago, Grateful13 said:

 

These statistics are pure propaganda and you know it. Anyone who died with a positive test within a month is a “covid death” regardless of what the actual cause of death is. 

We should all stop spreading disinformation and fear mongering like that.

Naw, none of that is true. We can compare the death rate against causes of death quite easily to validate. 

[mprach024]

12 hours ago, ElJavi76 said:

If I'm so responsible for my community's health, then I want them all up at 5 am to work out with me. You can set a yoga/gym mat in front of your house. We can have Richard Simmons in the middle of the street leading the workout. We can all eat wild caught salmon and brussel sprouts for dinner, and never drink 3 sodas a day again. 

Oh wait, what's that?... You're not that interested in being healthy after all.

I can argue that obesity and folks who don't pay attention to their health cost me and my family money every year. Healthcare premiums are what they are cause somebody had to have another doughnut. Healthcare premiums are pretty communicable too. Almost 200 BILLION are spent annually, just in the US, treating obesity related diseases. I take cash or card. 

I applaud your life choices.  Difference is if a person is obese or a drunk for example, it’s not contagious, that can’t be spread to dozens of others.  

[ElJavi76]

2 hours ago, mprach024 said:

I applaud your life choices.  Difference is if a person is obese or a drunk for example, it’s not contagious, that can’t be spread to dozens of others.  

What is contagious is my Healthcare costs rising due to folks who make poor choices. Maybe if insurance companies started charging according to those life choices we would have healthier Americans.

The number of deaths from covid among healthy middle aged men are low. And I repeat, I keep reading things here like "this is the closest thing we have to a cure". That is beyond dishonest and just a way to coerce people to mindlessly jump aboard. My wife decided for the vaccine. I didn't berate her nor belittle her choice. I'm not some vaccine nazi. I just think I'll take my chances with this one. 

[mprach024]

49 minutes ago, ElJavi76 said:

What is contagious is my Healthcare costs rising due to folks who make poor choices. Maybe if insurance companies started charging according to those life choices we would have healthier Americans.

The number of deaths from covid among healthy middle aged men are low. And I repeat, I keep reading things here like "this is the closest thing we have to a cure". That is beyond dishonest and just a way to coerce people to mindlessly jump aboard. My wife decided for the vaccine. I didn't berate her nor belittle her choice. I'm not some vaccine nazi. I just think I'll take my chances with this one. 

No issues with anything you stated here

*I should clarify as that read poorly, I have no issues with any of that and I agree with this

Edited May 5, 2021 by mprach024
Clarifying

[joeypots]

1 hour ago, ElJavi76 said:

What is contagious is my Healthcare costs rising due to folks who make poor choices. Maybe if insurance companies started charging according to those life choices we would have healthier Americans.

The number of deaths from covid among healthy middle aged men are low. And I repeat, I keep reading things here like "this is the closest thing we have to a cure". That is beyond dishonest and just a way to coerce people to mindlessly jump aboard. My wife decided for the vaccine. I didn't berate her nor belittle her choice. I'm not some vaccine nazi. I just think I'll take my chances with this one. 

So, you'd be fine with foregoing medical care if you contract Covid 19? I mean no disrespect and am only posting for the sake of disscussion. Having had relatives who got very sick with Covid 19, some for for months, "I just think I'll take my chances with this one." sounds like a bold statement to me. My experience has shown that people talk a brave game. We all know the guy who says, "When it's my time to go you can shoot me." Invariably, when it's that guys time to go he takes everything he can get from the medical industrial complex to stay alive. My understanding is that it it unethical to with hold medical care based on poor lifestyle choices. We treat smokers, eaters, and drug overdoses, and all people who talk a brave game but don't walk the talk. And we are going to treat people who get Covid 19 and refused a vaccine that was readily available. No one, in my estimation, knows how they are going to react when faced with their mortality.

[ElJavi76]

4 minutes ago, joeypots said:

So, you'd be fine with foregoing medical care if you contract Covid 19? I mean no disrespect and am only posting for the sake of disscussion. Having had relatives who got very sick with Covid 19, some for for months, "I just think I'll take my chances with this one." sounds like a bold statement to me. My experience has shown that people talk a brave game. We all know the guy who says, "When it's my time to go you can shoot me." Invariably, when it's that guys time to go he takes everything he can get from the medical industrial complex to stay alive. My understanding is that it it unethical to with hold medical care based on poor lifestyle choices. We treat smokers, eaters, and drug overdoses, and all people who talk a brave game but don't walk the talk. And we are going to treat people who get Covid 19 and refused a vaccine that was readily available. No one, in my estimation, knows how they are going to react when faced with their mortality.

What part of my comment suggested that one I'm risking myself or my health? (I actually like being alive and have people that count on me.) Secondly, when did I say, if I contract it I'll just sit at home and wait to die?

I'll ask one more time... how many of you fine vaccinated folks think that anyone refusing the vaccine WANTS to get covid? Or that we're going around licking toilet seats and laughing? It's a fact that vaccinated people have died of covid already. Maybe their false sense of security made them take unnecessary risks, that I don't take. I'm not poopooing on modern medicine, but I don't go popping pills for the slightest headache or load up on Sudafed at the sign of a cold. Fasting. Exercise. Hydration. Just a few alternatives. Long before vaccines our bodies have been fighting off diseases and winning most of those battles. 

Please don't twist my words into anything I haven't said. I'll take my chances as in... it's been almost 18 months. I've been careful. I'll trust the choices I've made and continue to make. Your chances of contracting covid are THE SAME as anyone without the vaccine. You added, to the medical community,  an extra layer of protection. Fine choice! I'm at peace with my choice.

[Ken Gargett]

13 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

From someone actively engaged with local to Congressional politics, this is truth. My rule of thumb for PA and most American politics: if you think something is bad, it’s usually worse. 

 What’s aggravated the situation is that social media and the nationalization of news media has fueled a celebritization of politics. This phenomenon transcends party and ideology - both news media and social media are a market for your attention. Clicks=profit.  And the people who drive clicks are the most outrageous or extreme.

Politics was never really noble, but over the past 15 years or so it’s transformed from “Mr  Smith Goes to Washington” to “Mrs. Kardashian runs Washington.”

 

agreed. just horrible now and that is not directed at one country. 

i remember when i lived in DC, i had a bit to do with a couple of the members of reagan's cabinet - one during and after the term and one after. i'm sure one name would be well known here, one less so. whatever your politics at the time (and i guess this is now in the realms of history rather than current politics), both were genuinely decent people (from the small interaction i had with them) who you really did believe wanted to do good. you might not have agreed but it was impossible to fault them on good intentions. 

today, find me a politician anywhere on the planet who is not, first and foremost, in it for themselves. there might be a few but they are indeed few, and far between. 

[joeypots]

36 minutes ago, joeypots said:

2 hours ago, ElJavi76 said:

I just think I'll take my chances with this one. 

 

This one. 

[ElJavi76]

Just now, joeypots said:

This one. 

I'll take my chances means, I deny modern medical advances and despise doctors? Lol 

I think I explained my stance above. You wanted to twist my words into some bravado that sneezes at medicine. That's a lot of inferring from your behalf. If you can read hearts and minds you have a career as a Tarot card reader or an Astrolger.

40 minutes ago, joeypots said:

My understanding is that it it unethical to with hold medical care based on poor lifestyle choices. We treat smokers, eaters, and drug overdoses, and all people who talk a brave game but don't walk the talk. And we are going to treat people who get Covid 19 and refused a vaccine that was readily available. 

It's the equivalent of me saying... sounds like you're fantasizing about negating medical care to those who chose to not get vaccinated. For now, you're just going with the consensus of doctors who have established what is or isn't ethical in their practice. But I'm not in your head, so I'll refrain from such accusations.

[Ken Gargett]

17 hours ago, SigSauer516 said:

Here's what I never understood and I can never get a straight answer on...

1. Sweden has had no real restrictions placed on its citizens. One would expect that Swedes would be dropping like flies...but they are not. 

i know in the early days of this mess, there was a lot of discussion about the way sweden approached it, both here and elsewhere. seems to have died down. 

but if you look at the figures (what cigarsurgeon says about the figures telling the story is spot on),

sweden - population around 10 million (these figures are ballpark but close enough for our purposes). 1 million infections and 15,000 deaths to date (plenty more still infected so expect that to rise). so 1 in 10 contracted it and the death rate is around 1 in 670 of the entire population. that might not be like flies but close enough for me. i'd say that is an epic fail.

the closest comparisons would be the other nordic countries (for what it is worth, i talk to friends in finland regularly and they are so thankful their govt did not take the swedish route. their big fear is swedes trying to cross the border into finland). 

so finland, pop of 6 mill give or take, and 90,000 infections with less than 1,000 deaths.

denmark, pop of around 6 mill with 250,000 infections and 2,500 deaths.

norway with around 6 mill and 110,000 infections and 800 or just under deaths. 

iceland is even less impacted.

so the swedish method gave you a death rate of 1 in 670 and an infection rate of 1 in 10. the rest of scandanavia was basically 18 mill pop, for 450,000 infections and 4,300 deaths. so if my maths is correct (every chance they are not), the rest have an infection rate of 0.025 per ten. as for the death rate, around a third of the people have died in the rest of those countries even though the population is nearly double. 

so i'd say sweden is the textbook approach to how not to do this.

i know that some will claim that sure, some deaths, but the economy is in better shape than other countries. sweden has done well economically compared to many other countries in europe but in this region, both norway and denmark have had their forecasts lifted and there is not that much difference between them and sweden. i couldn't find info on finland. it seems that sweden has done marginally better but certainly nowhere near enough to justify such a huge variance in the death rate (well, unless one doesn't care what the death rate is).