vaccines v herd immunity

[Corylax18]

8 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

I think I'd favor opening up and no mask mandates when the vaccine is available to all high risk groups. Not sure where we are with that.  But much like whether to permit cigar smoking at your place, let the owner decide whether or not to impose mask restrictions and let the individual decide what their risk tolerance is in choosing where to congregate.  'Merica is always a good option.

I can't support this universally, because people cant be trusted to act like adults, but I agree this would be the perfect scenario if we could handle it. I just don't think we can, across the country.

I was in Mississippi a month ago. Things are "back to normal" there, for the most part. People were walking around grocery stores, hotels and basketball stadiums without a mask on. Lots of them. Have we heard about a massive spike in cases in MS over the last month?

Mississippi is extremely rural though, Jackson is the biggest town and its barely a city. I don't think this same tactic would work in New York State, or the big cities in Texas. It seems to be working fine in some places though. 

[mprach024]

4 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

I think I'd favor opening up and no mask mandates when the vaccine is available to all high risk groups. Not sure where we are with that.  But much like whether to permit cigar smoking at your place, let the owner decide whether or not to impose mask restrictions and let the individual decide what their risk tolerance is in choosing where to congregate.  'Merica is always a good option.

And for those that can’t get vaccines (immunodeficient, children)?  Where do we put them?  Just because you don’t want to put a piece of cloth over your face?  This is where I fall down on the civil liberties debate.  Not saying there’s not a debate, it’s a great one, it’s just where I take the opposing side.

[BEVOSREVENGE]

4 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

For me personally, my opinion is to wear the thing until the public health concern has been abated via either eradication of the virus itself, treatment is available to cause the death rates in EVERYONE to be at level consistent with common flu, vaccination levels or herd immunity are high enough that community spread has stopped.

Just curious, if there was only a .005% chance that today when I walked outside, not wearing a mask could cause someone their life, why would I not wear one?  Is it such a disposition?  

 

Here's the issue with the pro-mask argument.  When Covid began, the science behind mask wearing was based on the mask being: 

(a) an N95 to N99

(b) properly fitted

(c) worn on a clean shaven face

What percentage of mask wearers would you say check all of those boxes? Maybe 1%, but most wear a homemade mask, spandex & lycra mask, surgical mask, bandana, or neck gaiter. The only reason those options were recommended, this time a year ago, is because N95 masks were impossible to find. Additionally, it was believed that something was better than nothing. However, those masks are completely worthless, and they stop spit and that's about it. Every breath you take in a non-fitted, non-sealing mask, on an unshaven face, you're breathing unfiltered air. Likewise, every breath you expel goes right around your mask, along with whatever germs you may have.  

If someone wants to actually follow the science, then shave your face and buy some N95 masks. Otherwise, you're just self-aggrandizing. The fashion show masks everybody wears these days provide the same safety benefit as cutting the seat belts out of your car and replacing them with kite string.

FYI, when asked to wear a mask, I do so but think it is silly.  I've had my Pfizer double tap and pose no threat to anyone, save my driving a 6,000+ lb. car to and from work everyday....but hey, they give away driver's licenses like lollipops at the pediatrician's office.

[mprach024]

6 minutes ago, BEVOSREVENGE said:

Here's the issue with the pro-mask argument.  When Covid began, the science behind mask wearing was based on the mask being: 

(a) an N95 to N99

(b) properly fitted

(c) worn on a clean shaven face

What percentage of mask wearers would you say check all of those boxes? Maybe 1%, but most wear a homemade mask, spandex & lycra mask, surgical mask, bandana, or neck gaiter. The only reason those options were recommended, this time a year ago, is because N95 masks were impossible to find. Additionally, it was believed that something was better than nothing. However, those masks are completely worthless, and they stop spit and that's about it. Every breath you take in a non-fitted, non-sealing mask, on an unshaven face, you're breathing unfiltered air. Likewise, every breath you expel goes right around your mask, along with whatever germs you may have.  

If someone wants to actually follow the science, then shave your face and buy some N95 masks. Otherwise, you're just self-aggrandizing. The fashion show masks everybody wears these days provide the same safety benefit as cutting the seat belts out of your car and replacing them with kite string.

FYI, when asked to wear a mask, I do so but think it is silly.  I've had my Pfizer double tap and pose no threat to anyone, save my driving a 6,000+ lb. car to and from work everyday....but hey, they give away driver's licenses like lollipops at the pediatrician's office.

You are taking an awful lot of liberties here.  Masks are not perfect I will agree there, if you look at the science of all the different types of masks, even n95 aren’t perfect.  But even neck gators provide more protection than nothing and there are studies that show the type of face coverings and their effectiveness.  As someone one above said, it doesn’t have to be perfect to be used.  Seatbelts aren’t perfect yet they are used.  It’s just math, do your part, and if everyone did theirs the spread slows.  Doesn’t make sense that something being only 90% effective means the alternative is do nothing.  That lacks logic.  

[rcarlson]

44 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

Just curious, if there was only a .005% chance that today when I walked outside, not wearing a mask could cause someone their life, why would I not wear one?  Is it such a disposition?  

 

In short, yes.  Walking outside by itself probably meets that risk threshold without Covid.

[rcarlson]

47 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

And for those that can’t get vaccines (immunodeficient, children)?  Where do we put them?  

Where did we put them before Covid?  It's not like it's the only virus/bacteria with airborne transmission.   

[BEVOSREVENGE]

2 minutes ago, FrancisK7 said:

Dr Rochelle Walensky has to rollback that statement.

Also your previous data tables showed some infection still occurred, even if its low.

It's not zero.

 

Getting into the rollback would be political, so we should just leave that alone.

Nothing in life is zero risk, nothing.

Laugh a little and don't be so rigid with your 0% tolerance level.

 

 

[mprach024]

6 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

Where did we put them before Covid?  It's not like it's the only virus/bacteria with airborne transmission.   

I don’t understand this question.  Heart Disease, Cancer and the other top killers are all non-communicable.  They haven’t gone anywhere but at least they were/are not transmitted.  COVID-19 is now the 3rd leading cause of death is very communicable. How did we protect people before COVID from Covid?  Sorry I’m lost.  
 

[Cigar Surgeon]

10 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

I don’t understand this question.  Heart Disease, Cancer and the other top killers are all non-communicable.  They haven’t gone anywhere but at least they were/are not transmitted.  COVID-19 is now the 3rd leading cause of death is very communicable. How did we protect people before COVID from Covid?  Sorry I’m lost.  

Point of fact: For the US at least, COVID-19 deaths surpassed heart disease and cancer to be the leading cause of death at several points through the pandemic. 

[BEVOSREVENGE]

16 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

You are taking an awful lot of liberties here.  Masks are not perfect I will agree there, if you look at the science of all the different types of masks, even n95 aren’t perfect.  But even neck gators provide more protection than nothing and there are studies that show the type of face coverings and their effectiveness.  As someone one above said, it doesn’t have to be perfect to be used.  Seatbelts aren’t perfect yet they are used.  It’s just math, do your part, and if everyone did theirs the spread slows.  Doesn’t make sense that something being only 90% effective means the alternative is do nothing.  That lacks logic.  

Done my part, my Pfizer double tap is scientifically proven to be vastly more effective than a silly mask.  Just waiting on the rest of the population to take one for the team too.

I will give you this, most people are gross.  Think about how many people, prior to Covid, did not wash their hands before eating or after using the restroom. 🤮 A mask and washing their hands are both good first steps for them.  Probably should add not picking buggers out of their noses to that list as well.

[mprach024]

1 minute ago, BEVOSREVENGE said:

I will give you this, most people are gross.

Lol so true.  

Glad you got your vax, I got the Pfizer as well. 

[rcarlson]

51 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

I don’t understand this question.  Heart Disease, Cancer and the other top killers are all non-communicable.  They haven’t gone anywhere but at least they were/are not transmitted.  COVID-19 is now the 3rd leading cause of death is very communicable. How did we protect people before COVID from Covid?  Sorry I’m lost.  
 

I thought you were asking about immunodeficient children and where we "put" them.  Can you clarify what you're asking?  Immunodeficiency isn't Covid specific.  Are you saying that everyone wears a mask until there's zero chance of anyone contracting and succumbing to it no matter how frail?     

[Philc2001]

2 hours ago, mprach024 said:

For those that are Anti Vax, Anti Mask, Anti Lockdown.  I seriously am asking for an explanation so I can better at least try to understand your logic - 

What exactly....IS your plan?  I’ve yet to hear it.  I’ve heard fear mongering and doubts, I understand both of those emotions.  But what are you suggesting we do?  

Open everything up?  Dont restrict?  Don’t vax?  Don’t mask?  Tough titties to those that die - ‘Merica?  Please help me understand.

 

I think the tipping point will be driven by social and economic pressure.

Some employers are already making it a condition of employment, and as the economy opens up and remote workers get recalled back, I think corporations will have to mandate it. My employer started opening up the office to vaxxed associates in late April. It is still voluntary to go back into the office, but for how long I cannot tell. I suspect there will be an end when it will be required to both be vaxxed and go back to the office.

Schools are requiring it too, although it was already mandatory to be vaccinated for other diseases in order to register at most schools anyway. 

Sports and entertainment venues are already separating and limiting attendance for non-vaxxed. Concert venues around here are creating separate sections for vaxxed and unvaxxed seating, and limiting unvaxxed seating to a fraction of seating for the vaxxed.  

Another tipping point may come from the healthcare industry, when insurance companies will start excluding coverage for COVID sickness, and may even deny coverage for anyone who is not vaxxed. 

Some countries already have mandatory quarantines, unless you're vaxxed, and I think many will adopt a similar policy before they fully open up for international travel. 

Sadly, fake vaccine cards are a burgeoning business already in anticipation of the mandatory vax-passport movement. 😤

 

 

 

[Ginseng]

I've read this thread and it gives me both hope and consternation. Hope that there will be enough people who get vaccinated to contribute to the protection of all American people. Consternation at the lack of faith in the science, reason, and critical thinking that will contribute to the prolonging of the pandemic. 

I'm a middle-aged, healthy male and based on my reading of the evidence, consideration of the risks, and a deep reflection on my responsibilities as a member of my community and society at large, I've taken the vaccination. And, whether those who benefit from this will ever realize or even acknowledge it, someone they know, or someone they love may keep on living because of the choice I've made. It's not just a personal choice. No decision like this, under circumstances like these, can ever be solely a personal choice. It's an exercise of conscience that reveals the truth in the saying, "no man is an island."

[inter4alia]

I think it is perfectly reasonable (and probably ultimately best for the greater good) for two highly intelligent, critically thinking people to come to different conclusions on any given issue, including the issue being discussed in this thread. This about sums it up for me. 

[Ginseng]

3 minutes ago, inter4alia said:

I think it is perfectly reasonable (and probably ultimately best for the greater good) for two highly intelligent, critically thinking people to come to different conclusions on any given issue, including the issue being discussed in this thread. This about sums it up for me. 

Sure, just as it would be reasonable to accept that one person is free to believe the earth is flat while another can believe that it's a sphere. It doesn't, however, mean that both are equally justified or correct.

[Grateful13]

7 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

Point of fact: For the US at least, COVID-19 deaths surpassed heart disease and cancer to be the leading cause of death at several points through the pandemic. 

 

These statistics are pure propaganda and you know it. Anyone who died with a positive test within a month is a “covid death” regardless of what the actual cause of death is. 

We should all stop spreading disinformation and fear mongering like that.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughly-78percent-of-people-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html

From the CDC study:  Among 148,494 adults who received a Covid-19 diagnosis during an emergency department or inpatient visit at 238 U.S. hospitals from March to December, 71,491 were hospitalized. Of those who were admitted, 27.8% were overweight and 50.2% were obese, according to the CDC report.

78% of people hospitalized with covid in the US were overweight according to CDC. If you are a healthy adult under 50 who is not fat your risk from covid is essentially zero. No riskier than a regular flu. People need to stop pretending otherwise. 

[inter4alia]

1 minute ago, Ginseng said:

Sure, just as it would be reasonable to accept that one person is free to believe the earth is flat while another can believe that it's a sphere. It doesn't, however, mean that both are equally justified or correct.

🤣🤣🤣

[El Presidente]

Why is it that  US members can't help but beat themselves up on so many issues? 

It must be exhausting 

This is a rhetorical question 

End the thread here unless you can stay on track and leave politics (US again) out. 

 

 

[PigFish]

3 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Why is it that  US members can't help but beat themselves up on so many issues? 

It must be exhausting 

This is a rhetorical question 

End the thread here unless you can stay on track and leave politics (US again) out. 

 

 

... keeps Ozbourns on their toes. Its a plot!!! -LOL

-R

[Ginseng]

33 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Why is it that  US members can't help but beat themselves up on so many issues? 

It must be exhausting 

This is a rhetorical question 

End the thread here unless you can stay on track and leave politics (US again) out. 

We're not showing very well, are we.

Back to cigars then!

[Jimmy_jack]

We had a guy die in a motorcycle crash. They ruled it a COVID related death. True story. 
 

Covid19 will be an endemic. We will need shots yearly. Im over all of it already. Got my shots. Ready to go back to normal. 
 

You can’t be sure what to believe. Wipe surfaces clean. Then they say it’s not needed. Masks won’t be necessary, then they say wear masks. 6 feet distance...because?

[mprach024]

1 hour ago, Grateful13 said:

 

These statistics are pure propaganda and you know it. Anyone who died with a positive test within a month is a “covid death” regardless of what the actual cause of death is. 

Its amazing that a surgeon spreads disinformation and fear mongering like this. You should do better. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughly-78percent-of-people-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html

From the CDC study:  Among 148,494 adults who received a Covid-19 diagnosis during an emergency department or inpatient visit at 238 U.S. hospitals from March to December, 71,491 were hospitalized. Of those who were admitted, 27.8% were overweight and 50.2% were obese, according to the CDC report.

78% of people hospitalized with covid in the US were overweight according to CDC. If you are a healthy adult under 50 who is not fat your risk from covid is essentially zero. No riskier than a regular flu. People need to stop pretending otherwise. 

Spoken like a man who didn’t lose a friend or a loved one.  I’m jealous and happy for you.  

[ElJavi76]

I think folks are confused. Getting vaccinated doesn't guarantee you're not getting covid. Just that if you do contract it you'll lessen your viral load leading to higher survival rate/chances. So if you're not guaranteed immortal life with this jab and I'm taking all the same precautions vaccinated folks are to not contract the thing why am I being selfish again? Do you think people that don't get vaccinated WANT to get covid?

This conversation is like a dog chasing its tail. You do you and take care of yourself and yours and let me do the same. I'm not in charge of your health and you're not in charge of mine. This shaming of those who don't want to take the vaccine is laughable. Some people taking the vax whack down a six pack a night and eat like trash but they're gonna pontificate to the rest of us about health? I'm about as responsible for my neighbor's health as much as I am responsible for trimming their lawn. HARD PASS!

[SigSauer516]

On 4/28/2021 at 8:08 PM, Glass Half Full said:

Yes, but the vaccines allow us to enjoy life again.  ...I don't understand the folks who say we should open everything and not wear masks -- and yet are anti-vaccine?  How does that make sense?  Millions upon millions of people have taken Pfizer and Moderna and have had absolutely no long-term consequences.  What's the downside?  ...And how is it worth it compared to the lives lost?  (I'm stopping now as it's become such a silly issue in the U.S.) 

One would think that vaccines allow us to enjoy life again, but unfortunately, NOTHING has changed for this fully vaccinated guy.  I'm still required to wear masks everywhere, dining restrictions are still in-force, etc.  I can understand why people don't want the vaccine.