vaccines v herd immunity

[Thatsze]

1 hour ago, Philc2001 said:

It's intriguing how this topic has become such a politically divisive issue. I wonder if that sort of resistance existed in the 1300s when the Black Death was wiping out 1/3 of the human species (estimated 75 million to 200 million people died). If it were not for technological advancements, COVID and many other plagues throughout history would have decimated the world population

COVID isnt nearly as lethal as any of the plagues. It's pretty much the flu except we have no resistance and we didnt have vaccines ready. As for why this is politically divisive, is this disease major enough to warrant what are pretty extreme and unprecedented measures? Perhaps it is, perhaps it's not. With a mortality rate of 2%, which doesnt actually represent the average person's chance of death, that's quite a bit lower than the plague wiping out over half of Europe's population. The average person if they're healthy has only a fraction of a percent chance of dying, really the group which needs to be protected are the elderly, who make the disease appear to be statistically far more lethal than it actually is.

Compare this to the spanish flu, which targeted young adults in their prime, I dont think this outbreak is nearly as bad, yet our reaction to it has been much stronger.

My question is why we couldnt quarantine just the elderly who were most at risk and legitimately need to be protected from this virus, while allowing healthy young and middle aged adults to continue on as is. This way our economies wouldnt be crippled. 

This isnt to say that the economy is more important than people's lives, but people's livelihoods have been ruined not even by the virus, but by the overreaction of our leaders. I doubt it was an easy choice, but still, I dont think we need to grind our society to a halt for every new bug that comes out

 

[Ken Gargett]

34 minutes ago, Thatsze said:

COVID isnt nearly as lethal as any of the plagues. It's pretty much the flu except we have no resistance and we didnt have vaccines ready. As for why this is politically divisive, is this disease major enough to warrant what are pretty extreme and unprecedented measures? Perhaps it is, perhaps it's not. With a mortality rate of 2%, which doesnt actually represent the average person's chance of death, that's quite a bit lower than the plague wiping out over half of Europe's population. The average person if they're healthy has only a fraction of a percent chance of dying, really the group which needs to be protected are the elderly, who make the disease appear to be statistically far more lethal than it actually is.

Compare this to the spanish flu, which targeted young adults in their prime, I dont think this outbreak is nearly as bad, yet our reaction to it has been much stronger.

My question is why we couldnt quarantine just the elderly who were most at risk and legitimately need to be protected from this virus, while allowing healthy young and middle aged adults to continue on as is. This way our economies wouldnt be crippled. 

This isnt to say that the economy is more important than people's lives, but people's livelihoods have been ruined not even by the virus, but by the overreaction of our leaders. I doubt it was an easy choice, but still, I dont think we need to grind our society to a halt for every new bug that comes out

 

i know we go around in circles on this but i agree that this is nothing like the plague. but that said, there has been more than enough evidence that this is not 'pretty much the flu'. far worse than that. 

as for the spanish flu, it did not take long on the internet to find most experts aligning the two in a great many respects. remember that the world had just spent four years at war and millions were dead. they dealt with it as best they could in what must have been horrendous circumstances, far worse than when covid arrived last year. we have had a century of science and advanced medicine to deal with this. you'd hope to hell that our reaction would be stronger and swifter.

but if you look at the measures put in place with the spanish flu - In the United States, the Committee of the American Public Health Association ( APHA) issued measures in a report to limit large gatherings. The committee held that any type of gathering of people, with the mixing of bodies and sharing of breath in crowded rooms, was dangerous. Nonessential meetings were to be prohibited. They determined that saloons, dance halls, and cinemas should be closed and public funerals should be prohibited since they were unnecessary assemblies. Churches were allowed to remain open, but the committee believed that only the minimum services should be conducted and the intimacy reduced. Street cars were thought to be a special menace to society with poor ventilation, crowding and uncleanliness. The committee encouraged the staggering of opening and closing hours in stores and factories to prevent overcrowding and for people to walk to work when possible.

in addition, schools were closed. many military institutions and camps were fully quarantined. masks were mandatory in many cities. universities were closed. 

not sure that there was that much difference. and the spanish flu was in far fewer countries. covid is much moire widespread. 

as for isolating a section of society, what is the point if you do not get rid of the underlying cause? as soon as someone hits 50 or 60, off to the isolation ward? what is next? soylent green? whatever the actual mortality rate, what about the great many more who suffered through? and what, say it is 2%, of their families and friends? this is not like putting the old and decrepit out on an ice floe and pushing it out to sea or leaving them out for the wolves. 

i accept that there has to be a balance but good luck getting agreement on that. 

but finally, society grinding to a halt for every new bug that comes out? what other bug? when have we ever seen anything like this? not for a century. hardly every other bug. 

[rcarlson]

2 hours ago, FrancisK7 said:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html

There have been anecdotal reports of vaccinated people catching the virus more than 2 weeks after their first dose, and of people having COVID, beating it, then catching it again, but there's not enough scientific data to conclude the safety level of transmission after vaccination. 

Masks are here to stay for some time I think. 

 

 

As you said, belief doesn't count.  So much that has been surmised (such as this), has frequently proved to be dead wrong.  Yet the scorn from certain segments remains constant.  It's not only losing its potency, it's creating the type of apathy and resentment from the masses that will have the opposite effect of what's intended by it.  Human nature.  And that's why I think absent something more compelling, masks are on their way out, at least in the U.S.  Hell, they already are in many areas like mine.       

[rcarlson]

2 minutes ago, FrancisK7 said:

Measures like masks only work if a majority of people have a social conscience and are capable of empathy, so YMMV.

Funny thing, many that oppose mask mandates say the exact same thing.  Perhaps that's the the larger problem.      

[Cairo]

5 minutes ago, FrancisK7 said:

Measures like masks only work if a majority of people have a social conscience and are capable of empathy

I find the whole discussion mildly irritating--I judge people by the entirety of their actions, day after day.  Do they keep their word?   Do they treat people with respect?  etc etc

I have found no correlation between either good or bad people and mask wearing.

I just follow the old "when in Rome do as the Romans do" rule.   It is getting more difficult since some of the Romans are wearing masks and some are not.....

😉

[TheGipper]

9 minutes ago, FrancisK7 said:

Measures like masks only work if a majority of people have a social conscience and are capable of empathy, so YMMV.

And the ad hominem attacks begin.

[Philc2001]

3 hours ago, FrancisK7 said:

Measures like masks only work if a majority of people have a social conscience and are capable of empathy, so YMMV.

It is confusing and frustrating that some folks will make a stand and throw a fit in public against mask wearing in a crowded airplane, yet they abide by the seatbelt rule. 

[Meesterjojo]

Seeing the responses here makes me happy to be a healthcare provider.

Some of yall are going to be making me rich. I need to build a cave humidor and stock it. My latest acquisition is nearly full.

Next week the town nearest me is having a huge biker rally for 5 days. The business owners sponsoring it feel just awful for the other businesses which have suffered. Not for the all of deaths we've had in their tiny blip on the map, nor for the numerous costly hospital treatments and extended stays. I'm excited. There was a lull.

Thank you all. Thank you. 

 

Edit: I'm so glad to live out in the middle of a desert. 

[Philc2001]

5 hours ago, Thatsze said:

COVID isnt nearly as lethal as any of the plagues. It's pretty much the flu except we have no resistance and we didnt have vaccines ready. As for why this is politically divisive, is this disease major enough to warrant what are pretty extreme and unprecedented measures? Perhaps it is, perhaps it's not. With a mortality rate of 2%, which doesnt actually represent the average person's chance of death, that's quite a bit lower than the plague wiping out over half of Europe's population. The average person if they're healthy has only a fraction of a percent chance of dying, really the group which needs to be protected are the elderly, who make the disease appear to be statistically far more lethal than it actually is.

It is not like a flu, and it is not limited to the elderly. It's actually surprising to hear that analogy still, considering what we have learned over the past year. You may be underestimating its lethality, and we are still learning about the long-term health implications of people who were infected but haven't died from it.

Although fewer people have died from COVID than in major historic plagues (at least so far) I believe that is largely because of our coordinated global reaction to it, as well as the immense healthcare heroics that saved millions of people from dying.  Look at what is currently happening in India, over 400K new infections daily (which is grossly undercounted), crematoriums running 24/7, people dying in the streets waiting to be admitted and hospitals completely overwhelmed, out of PPE, oxygen and other supplies. That could easily be happening across the entire world.

Consider how many more millions would have died if hospitals didn't intubate and use oxygen, or if social distancing and other precautions had not been implemented. The pandemic would be ravaging every continent, worse than the 1918 epidemic given how widespread COVID is geographically across the planet. Had it broken out 100 or 200 years ago, it would be far more lethal.

[mprach024]

10 hours ago, FrancisK7 said:

There have been anecdotal reports of vaccinated people catching the virus more than 2 weeks after their first dose

anecdotal: 

(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

"while there was much anecdotal evidence there was little hard fact"

[potpest]

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html
There have been anecdotal reports of vaccinated people catching the virus more than 2 weeks after their first dose, and of people having COVID, beating it, then catching it again, but there's not enough scientific data to conclude the safety level of transmission after vaccination. 
Masks are here to stay for some time I think. 
 
 

This doesn't mean vaccinated people still spread the virus, “Breakthrough” cases of COVID-19 among vaccinated people are expected.

It doesn't mean that the vaccines currently in use are not highly effective.

They are, just not 100 percent effective.

So, yes, you can still get sick even if you’re vaccinated, but it’s exceedingly rare.
According to the CDC, 87 Million Americans had received the COVID-19 vaccine as of April 20, 2021. Among vaccinated people, there were 7,157 breakthrough cases, with fewer than 500 hospitalizations and 88 deaths.

The cases are about 1/100th of 1 percent of those vaccinated.

[Ryan]

The more I see people putting their personal fears and comfort above the general good, the more I realise we don't deserve this planet.

Adelie penguins do.

 

 

[mprach024]

@Thatsze

Im not going to quote your comments since they will likely be deleted once a moderator sees the language used.  But I will comment to you here.  

The hospitals were at their breaking point, nearly all of them at one point or another.  Never at the same time, the hot spots moved around.  That was WITH shutdowns.  Without shutdowns it could have been so much worse than we saw.  Unfortunately prevention never gets good press or a super hero movie.  Only those that get revenge, or “avenge” after something terrible happened.  The curse of our CIA and FBI we only hear of their failings.  This is no different, the horror that was avoided I think is just incomprehensible to all us and impossible to know.

“It’s a free country I can do what I want”.  Remember saying that as a kid?  Well we were never right about any part of that.  There’s laws, there’s restrictions, and there’s rules of society that are ALL enforceable with repercussions.  I’ve yet to hear a good argument why any of the above that protect the lives of the people are a bad thing.  Just gibberish about “rights”.  What rights? Natural rights?  Enumerated rights? (Clearly not).  Do you have the right to not wear a shirt in a store?  Does the store owner have the right to then deny you service?  People misinterpret “rights” all the time, it’s just ignorance.  This is not a movie where any one of us is the main character.  We are constantly surrounded by restrictions of our society, or rules.  This is what keeps society from anarchy.  Without the rules, I think people would be horrified just how quickly humans would turn to animals.  

 

 

[GolfT3]

Well said, @mprach024. I would also add that while the economic impact of shutdowns has been massive, it will end up paling in comparison to the long term recession/depression brought on by the financial crisis of ‘08/09. We’re already seeing a tightening labor market, GDP and earnings growth, and wage inflation. The economic impact of a prolonged pandemic with more casualties, more highly infectious variants, and an incapacitated healthcare system would have been much worse.

In hindsight, more strict quarantine and lockdown restrictions earlier on would have helped stop community spread in the US and allowed the economy to fully open sooner. Avoiding restrictions in the name of short term economic impact is penny wise and pound foolish.

[PigFish]

What is the 'common' good? It is like finding dehydrated water!!! It does not exist.

Phil posted up a few posts ago that the plague killed say 100 million people. He finds that outrageous I guess.

The CCP has killed that much 'preaching the common good.' Ever think of that one folks?

And where did this plague come from? The CCP! You think they are caring about the common good?

You folks want to virtue signal, have at it. Want to do something about it, then do what is best for you. Doing what has been best for you, almost miraculously finds a way to be the best for most people. It is referred to a market based approach. Every tyrant in the world has been crowned and in many cases commits genocide for the 'common good.'

Want to do good. Do as much damage to the CCP for doing this to you an me. Call you Polly's and boycott their goods. Support your national interests and not theirs. That is my definition of the common good.

This virus has been one pit of lies from the very onset. Instead of taking the team that brought it to you to task, you (a generalization for people) have followed the shiny object and blamed your neighbor.... for not wearing a mask, not getting the shot.

From my common good perspective... it is pitiful!

A group of communist pigs, ostensibly 'engineering' society for the common good did this to the world. When they killed 100 million to engineer their society, did you think they would care about killing millions in engineering a virus and then not containing it?

Enjoy your debate folks!

-Piggy

[Philc2001]

5 hours ago, Thatsze said:

Many of your points were similar to Ken's so some of my responses will be there. I never said it only affected the elderly, I just said it affected them disproportionately. As for me underestimating the lethality, my 90 year old grandma caught it and was perfectly fine, granted she probably got lucky, but when you have another guy likening it to the plague I'm gonna call bullshit. 

 

India is a third world country. Additionally, I'm not saying the government should have done nothing, but I think they took it too far, when you look at the relief bills that have been passed not to help people suffering from covid, but for people suffering under the lockdown, yes I think it is too much.

 

As for how many more would have died if people didnt have oxygen or ppe, what the hell is your point here? I'm not saying our hospitals shouldn't be properly equipped to handle this, I just dont think we should cripple our own economy.

As for how covid has spread worldwide unlike the spanish flu, two caveats. One, global trade was much less significant, the world is far more interconnected today than it has ever been, naturally diseases would spread more quickly. If the world economy were more similar to that of the 1910s, that is with imperialist protectionism, (remember at this time all of Europe's empires were still well) the disease wouldnt have spread as quickly. Secondly, it was during ww1, which limited trade even more. Most goods only flowed between the belligerent powers.

Finally, pardon my French, but no sh*t the disease woulda been more lethal 100 years ago. What the hell is your point here. 

 

I'd like to apologize for my aggressive posturing, however I dont think you really understand what I'm trying to say here, nor do I think you have much respect for me, so why should I have much for you. That is all

Perhaps take a deep breath and take a little more time to digest before you unleash your temper. 

The reason I brought up plagues is because COVID-19 would easily have been deemed a plague in a different era if we weren't as advanced in DNA sequencing and medical diagnosis as we are today. Or flipping it around, plagues that killed many millions of people centuries ago would be far less lethal today with our current capabilities. Thus, COVID-19 is a relative cousin to a modern day plague in context of the global reach, the number of people it has infected and the number that have died. The point is that the massive coordinated effort of the governments, scientists, and the medical community is what saved millions from death, and not because the virus is non-lethal.

You may dismiss India as a third-world country if that somehow drives your point to something. Indian leaders made a miscalculation, they incorrectly assumed they had evaded the pandemic or believed they had some measure of immunity against the virus because their infection rate was so low last summer. So they let their guard down, lifted the social distancing restrictions, and opened their economy back up. Only now they realize they were far better off with the economic impacts of the shutdowns then compared to the massive and rising death toll, and more shutdowns as a result. It is a classic case study in the making.

Again, the point is I believe you may be underestimating the criticality of the virus, and overreacting to the shutdowns. 

 

[mprach024]

@Thatsze

No one is more moral here.  Being here is a privilege, to keep your privilege you need to follow the rules.  

Here they are:

If you’re looking for a fight or an emotional reaction to you cursing (we all know what your dashes and asterisks mean), you won’t get one.  Keep it respectful and your points will carry more weight.  Hope this helps

[El Presidente]

8 hours ago, Thatsze said:

 

Original post hidden for some reason

I

US Politics

Language

Do better .

[Thatsze]

I'd like to apologize for my conduct, I neglected that this was not only a forum but also a business. I'll be showing myself out.

[RichG]

58 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

US Politics

Language

Do better .

As an American the political free content here is something that makes this place somewhat of a haven for me in the last six months, where I can peacefully read and learn and laugh. I really appreciate the environment that has been fostered here.

[Ken Gargett]

8 hours ago, mprach024 said:

@Thatsze

Im not going to quote your comments since they will likely be deleted once a moderator sees the language used.  But I will comment to you here.  

The hospitals were at their breaking point, nearly all of them at one point or another.  Never at the same time, the hot spots moved around.  That was WITH shutdowns.  Without shutdowns it could have been so much worse than we saw.  Unfortunately prevention never gets good press or a super hero movie.  Only those that get revenge, or “avenge” after something terrible happened.  The curse of our CIA and FBI we only hear of their failings.  This is no different, the horror that was avoided I think is just incomprehensible to all us and impossible to know.

“It’s a free country I can do what I want”.  Remember saying that as a kid?  Well we were never right about any part of that.  There’s laws, there’s restrictions, and there’s rules of society that are ALL enforceable with repercussions.  I’ve yet to hear a good argument why any of the above that protect the lives of the people are a bad thing.  Just gibberish about “rights”.  What rights? Natural rights?  Enumerated rights? (Clearly not).  Do you have the right to not wear a shirt in a store?  Does the store owner have the right to then deny you service?  People misinterpret “rights” all the time, it’s just ignorance.  This is not a movie where any one of us is the main character.  We are constantly surrounded by restrictions of our society, or rules.  This is what keeps society from anarchy.  Without the rules, I think people would be horrified just how quickly humans would turn to animals.  

 

 

good post. i am old enough (just) to remember, as a young kid, the screaming and outrage when seats belts became mandatory (i'm sure if you told a lot of young people about the resistance to wearing seat belts, they'd think you stark staring). the greatest infringement of human rights imaginable. government bullying. people claiming that they would never wear one. the difference this made to the death toll in car accidents was so dramatic that this seems bizarre, even writing about it now. now, it is something we do without thinking. you get in a car and you put it on. an involuntary action. the world has not crumbled.

but get vaccinations to protect yourself, your family, your community? the greatest infringement of human rights imaginable. government bullying. what a load of rubbish. it really is time an awful lot of self-entitled dimwits grew up. 

if there are medical reasons you can't be vaccinated then of course, don't be. but the 'i won't have government dictating to me' argument is beyond ridiculous. never a problem for the same people if the government does something they agree with but if not, suddenly it is 1984. so too, the 'i'll make a decision as to whether or not it benefits me' argument is just as ridiculous. anyone who thinks that they have the freedom to do that at will really needs to take off their tin hat and join the real world. personally, i'd be far better off if i did not have to pay tax. that would be to my benefit. but it is not my choice. 

none of this is to suggest that governments always get it right or should not be held to account. quite the contrary. but we seem to have so many people determined to ignore the science. or create their own. we could start on climate change but perhaps best left for another day. 

the medical risk? well i'm told that there are a tiny percentage of car accidents where a seat belt can contribute to injuries (no idea if that is true). i suspect probably a similar percentage to a bad reaction to a vaccine. in other words, very very small. 

as rob has said, in australia we have the luxury of not being in any rush, not that our government has exactly rolled out the vaccines at speed, and can be more certain about the shots and from which provider. and as someone who has had clots, that is something i am watching. but otherwise, not getting the shot is so utterly selfish and beyond comprehension. 

 

8 hours ago, PigFish said:

What is the 'common' good? It is like finding dehydrated water!!! It does not exist.

Phil posted up a few posts ago that the plague killed say 100 million people. He finds that outrageous I guess.

The CCP has killed that much 'preaching the common good.' Ever think of that one folks?

And where did this plague come from? The CCP! You think they are caring about the common good?

You folks want to virtue signal, have at it. Want to do something about it, then do what is best for you. Doing what has been best for you, almost miraculously finds a way to be the best for most people. It is referred to a market based approach. Every tyrant in the world has been crowned and in many cases commits genocide for the 'common good.'

Want to do good. Do as much damage to the CCP for doing this to you an me. Call you Polly's and boycott their goods. Support your national interests and not theirs. That is my definition of the common good.

This virus has been one pit of lies from the very onset. Instead of taking the team that brought it to you to task, you (a generalization for people) have followed the shiny object and blamed your neighbor.... for not wearing a mask, not getting the shot.

From my common good perspective... it is pitiful!

A group of communist pigs, ostensibly 'engineering' society for the common good did this to the world. When they killed 100 million to engineer their society, did you think they would care about killing millions in engineering a virus and then not containing it?

Enjoy your debate folks!

-Piggy

ray, i posted mine below before i saw yours. i am anything but an apologist for, or supporter of, the chinese govt, but any chance we could have some evidence? leave aside the millions they have undoubtedly killed, as it hardly seems relevant to this, as well as your views on that govt and how possibly to deal with it, again not seeing the relevance. 

you claim a 'pit of lies'. can you be more specific? can you provide evidence or proof that they are lies? i'd agree that there have been many lies, disgracefully so, around this whole thing but i think you might find them coming from a number of politicians (not restricted to any one country) and not the scientists. 

all i can see is that you have parroted some political nonsense that deliberately ignores the science. that might make you feel good but it does nothing to advance the debate. other than the rantings of various politicians, not restricted to your nation i assure you, do you have a shred of evidence? is there any science to back up your claims? 

my understanding of the research done so far into the origins of covid were as follows - 

1. it is 'possible to likely' that the virus transferred from an animal to humans at some stage (i'm no scientist so trying to follow the findings as best as i can, but if i recall the origins of aids, that was monkey to human?). in this case, the more likely culprit was bats.

2. it is 'likely to very likely' that the transmission went via another animal on the way to humans. assuming it was bats first, it is likely to have transferred to an animal often farmed and in this case, that is most likely mink or pangolins, or even possibly cats, before then transferring to humans. they believe this because humans have little direct contact with bats. previous similar viruses, unless of course you think china is behind all of them, took similar paths. SARS apparently went bats to civets to humans. MERS went via camels.

my understanding is that the scientific community believe that this is far and away the most likely way that covid infected humans. but as yet, they don't know the specific animals involved. 

3. transmission by frozen foods. this theory has been categorised as between 'not impossible and beyond far-fetched'. 

4. the escaped from the laboratory theory. the scientists have ruled this out as 'extremely unlikely'. laboratory leaks have been extremely rare (unless of course one believes the conspiracy theories that the chinese govt unleashed it on its own people and while i am sure that said theorists have an explanation for why they would do that, life is far too short to waste any time reading it). there is no evidence that anyone working at the laboratory in wuhan was infected and no evidence at all that they were working on specifically such a project. but in fairness to all that, it is possible that it was a leak. just highly unlikely.

as for deliberate manipulation, again, absolutely no evidence and apparently, according to the scientists, it is extremely unlikely it could have been created by accident. it is apparently, "incredibly difficult to culture a virus that’s strong enough to cause human infections from a bat sample". but these viruses do exist in nature, making it far more likely that is the source.

sounds a bit like occam's razor. 

 

i know all this does not suit the rantings of the various politicians around the globe determined to push fruitbat theories (that would be fruitbat as in whacko and not the actual bat theory) but until any of them provide actual evidence, they should not be given the time of day. 

the scary thing is that the investigations reached the conclusion that "somewhere out there", there is another virus very similar to this covid. a prospect they described as "terrifying". 

 

 

 

[rcarlson]

4 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

good post. i am old enough (just) to remember, as a young kid, the screaming and outrage when seats belts became mandatory (i'm sure if you told a lot of young people about the resistance to wearing seat belts, they'd think you stark staring). the greatest infringement of human rights imaginable. government bullying. people claiming that they would never wear one. the difference this made to the death toll in car accidents was so dramatic that this seems bizarre, even writing about it now. now, it is something we do without thinking. you get in a car and you put it on. an involuntary action. the world has not crumbled.

but get vaccinations to protect yourself, your family, your community? the greatest infringement of human rights imaginable. government bullying. what a load of rubbish. it really is time an awful lot of self-entitled dimwits grew up. 

if there are medical reasons you can't be vaccinated then of course, don't be. but the 'i won't have government dictating to me' argument is beyond ridiculous. never a problem for the same people if the government does something they agree with but if not, suddenly it is 1984. so too, the 'i'll make a decision as to whether or not it benefits me' argument is just as ridiculous. anyone who thinks that they have the freedom to do that at will really needs to take off their tin hat and join the real world. personally, i'd be far better off if i did not have to pay tax. that would be to my benefit. but it is not my choice. 

none of this is to suggest that governments always get it right or should not be held to account. quite the contrary. but we seem to have so many people determined to ignore the science. or create their own. we could start on climate change but perhaps best left for another day. 

the medical risk? well i'm told that there are a tiny percentage of car accidents where a seat belt can contribute to injuries (no idea if that is true). i suspect probably a similar percentage to a bad reaction to a vaccine. in other words, very very small. 

as rob has said, in australia we have the luxury of not being in any rush, not that our government has exactly rolled out the vaccines at speed, and can be more certain about the shots and from which provider. and as someone who has had clots, that is something i am watching. but otherwise, not getting the shot is so utterly selfish and beyond comprehension. 

Honestly, you can't understand why people have a problem with putting what is rightly termed an experimental vaccine into their bodies?  Selfish?  For the record, I've taken the vaccine.  But I loathe the moral judgment passed on those that question it by those that do not.  While the risks of dying from Covid if contracted can be assessed statistically, the long term effects of the vaccine (if any) are not known.  And government fallibility and politics most certainly plays a role.  The swine flu vaccine debacle comes to mind.  Hell, we have elected officials pushing it now that said they wouldn't take it if Trump said to.  Officials have no more trust from their opponents now than their supporters did for their opponents then.  But more than anything the name-calling has to stop.  If you're trying to convince people you've got it right, it's totally counterproductive.                 

[Ginseng]

This discussion is pushing into the realm of the personal. Let's be mindful of each other, people. We need not accept each other's viewpoints but we can acknowledge them.

[Meesterjojo]

I'm loving all this chaos! It really is exciting for me. As much as I love my job, and my patients, I love the bonuses for all the work this has brought. 

 

I'll say this: until you've held the hand of someone as they finish their last coughing fit, their last struggle breathing, prayed with their family while everyone is crying in disbelief, for a completely preventable cause of death...well, you just have no idea. Get vaccinated, don't get vaccinated. Don't care about the society you've decided to live in. Get all the benefits while giving little back. Be selfish.  Line my pockets. 

There's a reason why I live in a desert. I don't want social responsibility. I want a minimal social imprint. I don't want to be a parasite. I give back to other communities more than what I take.  Very few people can claim this. If you're not getting vaccinated and you live in a city or town, if you rely on a community to live, then you're a parasite doing direct harm to other humans and you are a bad person accordingly. 

It's really that simple. 

 

Edit: I'm not sure why anyone is confused with my statement. Maybe they didn't expect someone directly dealing with covid patients to say anything? Perhaps responsibility is confusing? Don't get me wrong, I love a parasite as much as a giver, but let's be completely honest. I'm fine waking up and knowing my cell phone was partially constructed by someone that has a suicide net outside their workspace. That my shoes and scrubs are made by underpaid child labor in South East Asia. I'm not innocent. Let me know if there's any confusion I can clear up.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Meesterjojo

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, Ginseng said:

This discussion is pushing into the realm of the personal. Let's be mindful of each other, people. We need not accept each other's viewpoints but we can acknowledge them.

Agreed