vaccines v herd immunity

[Ken Gargett]

really interesting read. sent to me by a scientist friend of mine who has done some work on the vaccine. 

 

https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/04/27/tracking-the-evolution-of-a-variant-of-concern-in-brazil/

[Chibearsv]

Very interesting article demonstrates logically the necessity of getting everyone vaccinated.  I wish I could convince everyone I know to go and get vaccinated but I've got younger friends that absolutely refuse; yet they want everything to "open up".  The push back doesn't make sense to me at all.  We boomers have experience of seeing diseases like measles or polio that have been eradicated by vaccine; so I think getting vaccinated seems more "matter of fact" to us.  Hopefully, younger folks will get more confidence that getting vaccinated isn't evil or sinful or a government plot or whatever else is holding them back.  Vaccines are more than a shield, they are disease killers when everyone gets vaccinated.  Then we all get to go out and play again.

[La_Tigre]

14 minutes ago, Chibearsv said:

Very interesting article demonstrates logically the necessity of getting everyone vaccinated.  I wish I could convince everyone I know to go and get vaccinated but I've got younger friends that absolutely refuse; yet they want everything to "open up".  The push back doesn't make sense to me at all.  We boomers have experience of seeing diseases like measles or polio that have been eradicated by vaccine; so I think getting vaccinated seems more "matter of fact" to us.  Hopefully, younger folks will get more confidence that getting vaccinated isn't evil or sinful or a government plot or whatever else is holding them back.  Vaccines are more than a shield, they are disease killers when everyone gets vaccinated.  Then we all get to go out and play again.

It’s because these younger snowflakes have known no true suffering...they just know they have...

[Edicion]

I say vaccinate the herd

[Corylax18]

29 minutes ago, La_Tigre said:

It’s because these younger snowflakes have known no true suffering...they just know they have...

Do you enjoy your social security checks or will you in the future?( I never will) Cause I sure love giving a couple hundred bucks a paycheck to the least personally responsible generation in history.  Baby boomers have bankrupted the entire country at everyone else's expense.  Cant pay for your own boner pills, cant fund your own retirements, cant afford put your kids through college, but us kids are the commies.

Who do you think raised us? Get over yourself. I graduated in to the bottom of the great recession and have worked hard every day to earn what I have. There are millions of millennials just like me. And you're lucky that we're here to Start footing the bill for decades of your generation living well beyond their means. So, You're Welcome.

I got my first Moderna shot Last Friday and I do think everybody should get the vaccine at some point. Millennialsin general, have learned to be HIGHLY Skeptical of Government/Authority. Live times of lies will do that. Most people my age, who are hesitant  to get the Vax, just don't trust that its actually safe and wont cause any long term side effects. I understand the hesitancy, but I dont agree with it in this case. 

[La_Tigre]

13 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

Do you enjoy your social security checks or will you in the future?( I never will) Cause I sure love giving a couple hundred bucks a paycheck to the least personally responsible generation in history.  Baby boomers have bankrupted the entire country at everyone else's expense.  Cant pay for your own boner pills, cant fund your own retirements, cant afford put your kids through college, but us kids are the commies.

Who do you think raised us? Get over yourself. I graduated in to the bottom of the great recession and have worked hard every day to earn what I have. There are millions of millennials just like me. And you're lucky that we're here to Start footing the bill for decades of your generation living well beyond their means. So, You're Welcome.

I got my first Moderna shot Last Friday and I do think everybody should get the vaccine at some point. Millennialsin general, have learned to be HIGHLY Skeptical of Government/Authority. Live times of lies will do that. Most people my age, who are hesitant  to get the Vax, just don't trust that its actually safe and wont cause any long term side effects. I understand the hesitancy, but I dont agree with it in this case. 

You obviously presume too much. And thus, confirm just that I said...

Ignorance is not a cause for turning this to debate millennial politics or monetary policy. And, again, it is simply wasted on those that just   know they have   ...

[Thatsze]

2 hours ago, Chibearsv said:

Very interesting article demonstrates logically the necessity of getting everyone vaccinated.  I wish I could convince everyone I know to go and get vaccinated but I've got younger friends that absolutely refuse; yet they want everything to "open up".  The push back doesn't make sense to me at all.  We boomers have experience of seeing diseases like measles or polio that have been eradicated by vaccine; so I think getting vaccinated seems more "matter of fact" to us.  Hopefully, younger folks will get more confidence that getting vaccinated isn't evil or sinful or a government plot or whatever else is holding them back.  Vaccines are more than a shield, they are disease killers when everyone gets vaccinated.  Then we all get to go out and play again.

I've opted to avoid the vaccine for now. I'm not an essential worker nor am I an at risk individual so there is less impetus for me to get one. Frankly I don't have much confidence in these vaccines. Everyone I know who's gotten one has complained about the side effects. These things were rushed out in response to covid so while I doubt they'll kill anyone, or even really do anything major, it seems apparent that the covid vaccines are far less tested than anything that any of these companies or governments would ever think of regularly putting out. For that reason,  I'm out.

[BrightonCorgi]

27 minutes ago, Thatsze said:

Frankly I don't have much confidence in these vaccines.

Our president and vice president told us for almost a year not to trust the vaccine.  I am going with their advice.  If the president/vice president took the vaccine, it's not effective since they both wear two masks and maintain extra social distancing when everyone is checked going near them. 

Perhaps they didn't actually take the vaccine per their original recommendation?

[Kitchen]

3 hours ago, Chibearsv said:

Very interesting article demonstrates logically the necessity of getting everyone vaccinated.  I wish I could convince everyone I know to go and get vaccinated but I've got younger friends that absolutely refuse; yet they want everything to "open up".  The push back doesn't make sense to me at all.  We boomers have experience of seeing diseases like measles or polio that have been eradicated by vaccine; so I think getting vaccinated seems more "matter of fact" to us.  Hopefully, younger folks will get more confidence that getting vaccinated isn't evil or sinful or a government plot or whatever else is holding them back.  Vaccines are more than a shield, they are disease killers when everyone gets vaccinated.  Then we all get to go out and play again.

It's all about incentives, and right now younger people are not being given any incentives to get vaccinated.  

If you're older (over 55) and/or have a pre-existing condition, your incentive is to not die or to not end up in the hospital. However, the infection fatality rate for those under 45 and in good health is 0.05%, which is higher then the flu but still not an amount worth worrying about.  There are myriad of other everyday activities that have a higher chance of dying then getting C-19 if you are in this demographic.  So the "get it so you do not die" incentive is non-existent for this demographic.  Now you could say that they should get vaccinated so their parents do not die from C-19, but since we have made incredible progress in vaccinating the older population, this incentive is also non-existent for this demographic. 

The only real incentive for this demographic is, get vaccinated and you can go back to your normal life without masks or social distancing.  That is it, but this incentive is not being given to us by our best and brightest, a.k.a. politicians.  When your leader is doing zoom calls double masking even though he is fully vaccinated, that does not send a great message to younger citizens.  It says, even if I get vaccinated, this is not going to end, so why bother.  

Human nature is unchangeable, and in order to get people to do what you want, you need to provide them actual incentives, not pie in the sky slogans.  

As for myself, I plan on getting the vaccine soon enough.  I feel that when people will allow my clients access to their houses to have them photographed, being vaccinated will be a concern.  I also do a fair amount of work with film productions and Hollywood is crazy left with their standards, so there is that too.  It's all about incentives. 

[joeypots]

I'm vaccinated. No problem. I hear that maybe women have a bit more of a  reaction to being vaccinated than men. I don't want to get Covid and I certainly would not want to infect anyone if  I was asymptomatic.

[mprach024]

Science, hard to argue with the rapidly falling case numbers as vaccinations are increasing.

Get the vax.  These variants are created by transmission and replication in new bodies allowing mutations to occur and then replicate.  Variants only stop when the transmission stops.  

Yes we will likely need another booster in a year to handle the variants being born in the virus soup of Brazil and India right now, but that’s fine, get a booster a couple times over a couple years, and maybe Annually like the flu shot, that’s still a WAY better alternative to shutting the countries down.

To those that don’t trust the Vax and don’t want it.  I have no problem with you and your right.  But then don’t fight the Vaccine Passports allowing people into Concerts, Flights, Restaurants, etc.  Because of your skepticism, do not keep me from returning to my life.  If you want to hold out on the vax that’s your right, but when your “rights” start infringing on MY rights and freedoms, we have a problem.  
 

For reference, here’s cases in USA, you can see where vaccinations began getting to significant numbers, and of course the little bump from Spring Breakers:

 

Here’s more reference material on vaccine performance, Britain is very highly vaccinated:

Here’s Britain’s case numbers:

France is way behind in vaccines like most of Europe, here’s there’s cases:

Vaccines are working.  

[MrBirdman]

 

2 hours ago, Kitchen said:

right now younger people are not being given any incentives to get vaccinated.  

To the extent this is true, it’s only because of public misperception. Dying is not the only risk from COVID-19 - large numbers of people of all ages are reporting life changing symptoms from infection in a disease that’s being termed “long COVID.” For many the symptoms are similar to chronic fatigue syndrome. Will they all improve? We don’t know. We also don’t know about the long-term risks associated with COVID infection.

If you’re ready to risk your quality of life just to avoid a vaccine, I think you’re crazy. 

Not meant against @Kitchen, just my general take. 

[Trapper99]

I fall more on the side of individual rights, even with choices I don't agree with. If you feel like you want to get the vaccine for whatever reason, cool. If you don't for whatever reason, cool. In my state (and probably others), there is enough vaccine supply that they are having walk-in no appointment necessary clinics for ages 16+. Anybody who wants the vaccine can get it now, which means it's time to open things back up 100%.   

[MrBirdman]

7 minutes ago, Trapper99 said:

Anybody who wants the vaccine can get it now, which means it's time to open things back up 100%.   

The sooner enough people get the vaccine the sooner it can happen. But increased access won’t slow the spread on its own. The “I can die if I want to” argument doesn’t really hold water either - unless you pay cash, the cost of your hospitalization is at least partially born by others (either taxpayers through Medicare or via your insurer’s premium pool). 

[Kitchen]

 

1 minute ago, MrBirdman said:

 

To the extent this is true, it’s only because of public misperception. Dying is not the only risk from COVID-19 - large numbers of people of all ages are reporting life changing symptoms from infection in a disease that’s being termed “long COVID.” For many the symptoms are similar to chronic fatigue syndrome. Will they all improve? We don’t know. 

If you’re ready to risk your quality of life just to avoid a vaccine, I think you’re crazy. 

Yes, and people of all ages develop chronic reactions to the flu and bronchitis and other common illnesses.  The real question is at what rate, and is it high enough to be concerned with? 

Once again, for the demographic in question, the chances are so low it is not something worth worrying about.  If it was, all reports on such would be providing the stats, but since the stats are too low to sell panic porn, they leave them out because it would counter the reporting.  Remember, the media are not selling information but clicks, and stories that are not sensational dont get clicks.  

The main issue I see hear is not that young people are not getting vaccinated, but that our public health centers are destroying their credibility by being sensational as well.  Remember the Dr Walensky's panic attack a few weeks ago talking about impending doom?  Does anyone really listen to the CDC anymore?  I dont know of anyone that actually take Fauci seriously anymore.  Some may give lip service to it, but even those whom I know who are far left really dont follow anything that is coming out of their mouths anymore.  For them to take this long to tell us outside activities are okay, especially after giving us permission to protest last summer, is ludicrous. 

In private, everyone will admit this; in public though it is important to signal your religion.  That is what most of this is about right now with a 95% effective vaccine.  

I feel like at this point, we are living in 1637 Denmark and the government is still trying to convince us tulips are worth the weight is gold when everyone knows they're really just a flower.  

[helix]

Stop the BS and get the Jab.

[djrey]

10 minutes ago, Kitchen said:

I feel like at this point, we are living in 1637 Denmark

Or in 1930’s Germany

[Kaptain Karl]

1 hour ago, mprach024 said:

Here’s more reference material on vaccine performance, Britain is very highly vaccinated:

Here’s Britain’s case numbers:

France is way behind in vaccines like most of Europe, here’s there’s cases:

Vaccines are working.  

Great post. I 100% agree. 

[Kitchen]

11 minutes ago, djrey said:

Or in 1930’s Germany

More like June 7th, 1944 Germany.  😉

[CaptainQuintero]

  I just want this over and done with. There's a lot of philosophical debate potential around it, but I can't believe anyone who's had face to face experience with the human cost of this would want anything other than ending this as soon as possible

  This time last year the odds were massively in favour of not ever finding a working vaccine, we've 4 that work better than could ever have been imagined. The vaccines reduce transmission by up to 70% and hospitalisation/serious disease by statistically 100%

  The risk of vaccine escape is a real possibility now vaccination has started if it isn't rolled out quick enough, we don't want to risk going down that road at all. 

  India is an example for all if you don't get it right. We've the tools to end it now with a 3-second jab, if it doesn't happen there's only ourselves to blame 

[Thatsze]

3 hours ago, mprach024 said:

To those that don’t trust the Vax and don’t want it.  I have no problem with you and your right.  But then don’t fight the Vaccine Passports allowing people into Concerts, Flights, Restaurants, etc.  Because of your skepticism, do not keep me from returning to my life.  If you want to hold out on the vax that’s your right, but when your “rights” start infringing on MY rights and freedoms, we have a problem.  

If you want everyone to be vaxxed that's your right, but then dont only allow vaccinated to go out. When your "rights" infringe on my rights we have a problem.

I'm being cheeky here but the point is that this is hypocritical, it's a problem when my rights infringe on yours but not when yours infringe on mine?

You cant allow people certain rights only if they do what you, the government, or "the people" want, otherwise those would not be rights but privileges.

[MrBirdman]

47 minutes ago, Thatsze said:

If you want everyone to be vaxxed that's your right, but then dont only allow vaccinated to go out. When your "rights" infringe on my rights we have a problem.

I'm being cheeky here but the point is that this is hypocritical, it's a problem when my rights infringe on yours but not when yours infringe on mine?

You cant allow people certain rights only if they do what you, the government, or "the people" want, otherwise those would not be rights but privileges.

Yeah, except your “rights” infringe a hell of a lot more on other people than a vaccine does - you know, by killing them or wasting a ton of money. Don’t forget - there are people who can’t get vaccines do to immune disorders or diseases like leukemia. 

All this “rights” talk is nonsense. You don’t have a right to impose risks and costs on everyone else. A vaccine is literally a pin prick - there’s no comparison.

Look, I don’t want an argument back and forth. I just have yet to hear a compelling reason why people don’t want the vaccine when we need people to get it to get back to normal. 

[saltbox]

You have the right to put alcohol into your body, but you don't have the right to then get behind a steering wheel. You not being vaccinated puts others around you at risk, and, en masse, it increases the likelihood of complications in ending all this.

 

The combined global medical and scientific communities went all in on these vaccines. The only other time the world was ever this united against a common threat was probably after Bill Pullman's speech in Independence Day. We're sooo close to being done with all of it.

[djrey]

16 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

Look, I don’t want an argument that goes nowhere. I just have yet to hear a compelling reason why people don’t want the vaccine

Maybe because these vaccines have been out for less than a year and people are hesitant knowing that the long term side effects have yet to be seen? Maybe because the vaccine has already killed people and put others in hospitals? Or possibly that the vast majority of people have little to no risk of any sort of complications from contracting the virus. Having your eyes shut to other people’s perfectly valid opinions is perpetuating the argument that goes nowhere.

 

[MrBirdman]

4 minutes ago, djrey said:

Maybe because the vaccine has already killed people

Please do not spread misinformation - there is no evidence the vaccine has killed anyone. A few have had extraordinarily rare side effects, which is why they require you remain for observation immediately after getting it. 

I’m not saying there’s zero risk, but it’s much lower than from COVID