US-Cuba Trade : No Cash No Chicken

[El Presidente]

10 minutes ago, ElJavi76 said:

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm saying, this is all a matter of where you're seated. I am offering some context as to why there is some blind passion coming from exiled Cubans. It's far more emotional than it is rational. 

Javi, I understand the blind passion.  One of my best mates in Miami drums it into my ear each week that we catch up for meetings on zoom 

What I find very hard to stomach is that the opinions of Cubans who want a lifting of the embargo are simply dismissed by those living in the US.  These people are just tired of the bullshit, the lines, the harassment, the lack of opportunity, goods, services. They don't need lectures on geopolitics. Right now they need food and money. They need a lifting of remittances and an influx of tourism once CV19 vaccine rolls out.  

 

[Bijan]

6 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

What I find very hard to stomach is that the opinions of Cubans who want a lifting of the embargo are simply dismissed by those living in the US.  These people are just tired of the bullshit, the lines, the harassment, the lack of opportunity, goods, services. They don't need lectures on geopolitics. Right now they need food and money. They need a lifting of remittances and an influx of tourism once CV19 vaccine rolls out. 

Yes it an odd hypocrisy to dismiss, on the one hand the opinions of outsiders for not having any skin in the game (which I don't agree with, but let's let it be for the sake of argument), but then turn around and also dismiss the opinions of the people actually living in Cuba who have the most skin in the game (something I see as hard to argue or debate).

[ElJavi76]

10 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Seems even that is not universal, and depends in part on when they left the island:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/changing-their-minds-on-cuba/474612/

 

Bijan find me 3 more articles like this...I can find you 100 that say the opposite. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I've chatted with more Cuban Americans on the subject than MATT VASILOGAMBROS. 

I repeat, I'm not trying to "win" any argument or debate. Just understand who is saying what they're saying. 

[Bijan]

1 minute ago, ElJavi76 said:

I repeat, I'm not trying to "win" any argument or debate. Just understand who is saying what they're saying. 

Yes understood. If you're saying Cuban Americans are very passionate about the issue and rightly so, I agree with you. How could I not.

If you're making the argument that one's opinions are more valid the more skin one has in the game then I disagree. And even if I did agree, those living in Cuba have the most skin in the game.

[Ken Gargett]

what seems so bizarre about all this is that it seems that everyone would love to see the same thing - the removal of an oppressive regime and the cuban people given the same rights and responsibilities as people around the globe. we just don't agree on how to get there. 

to which i would suggest that 60 years of an embargo has not changed anything. why on earth wouldn't considering a change in approach be worthwhile? as i have said elsewhere, no one knows if it will work as we want and see the end of the cuban govt, but i think we can say that doing nothing won't work. anyone thinking that after 60 years, the cuban govt is suddenly going to say, well, time to go? 

i'd add that i think one of the reasons that some may oppose lifting the embargo is that it won't bring the immediate end to the cuban govt. that is true, i'm sure. but i believe it would be the start of what will do that. and surely that is better than doing nothing. 

[ElJavi76]

2 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Yes understood. If you're saying Cuban Americans are very passionate about the issue and rightly so, I agree with you. How could I not.

If you're making the argument that one's opinions are more valid the more skin one has in the game then I disagree. And even if I did agree, those living in Cuba have the most skin in the game.

This comes off like a toxic subject. I never suggested folks can't opine. To the contrary... opine away. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I was simply trying to offer folks "OUR" perspective. 

@Ken Gargett your last statement is spot on. We all want the same. It's a matter of how. When Obama started to go by the way of easing things, instead of coming to the table to "talk things out" to advance the plight of every day Cubans the Castro(s) decided they'd make demands instead. So, please understand our skepticism that lifting the embargo will actually move the needle. 

With that I'll digress from the conversation, as this subject always stirs up real negative emotions for me. I appreciate your cordial banter. As you were. 

[Bijan]

Just now, ElJavi76 said:

This comes off like a toxic subject. I never suggested folks can't opine. To the contrary... opine away. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I was simply trying to offer folks "OUR" perspective. 

My sincere apologies then. And I appreciate the perspective.

I have come across what you call this "toxic subject" in many similar discussions in other areas. I am sorry if I saw it here when that was not the case.

[ElJavi76]

1 minute ago, Bijan said:

My sincere apologies then. And I appreciate the perspective.

I have come across what you call this "toxic subject" in many similar discussions in other areas. I am sorry if I saw it here when that was not the case.

I appreciate the sentiment but you don't need to apologize. Like I said, it sounds counterintuitive for Cubans with family there to want the embargo and even tougher to verbalize it. I'm not as hard line as others. Some don't visit and won't until they're gone. Some don't send money. It's just hard to express the pain that regime has caused to people there and for those who have left and now have to watch. 

[Ryan]

Certainly some of the blame lies with the Cuban government and how they have "handled" the economy since 1960, but I sometimes think of a comparison.

Ireland, where I am, is a small Island nation (except for a small bit in the North but we can disregard that for now) with a much larger trading partner/bloc beside us.

There are many comparisons that can be accurately made between Ireland and Cuba and how we have traded traditionally with our larger neighbours. Until very recently (that is until about 25 years ago) our main exports have been agricultural products, labour and a bit of tourism (calling tourism an "export" here as it's a way of importing foreign currency). Remittances have also been hugely important to Ireland until the 1960s/70s.

If the UK and rest of Europe placed a trade embargo on Ireland at any point in our history and punished foreign banks and industry (eg. Asian and US banks for trading with us that also wanted to trade with Europe); regardless of what type of government we have here, Communist, socialist, capitalist or fascist, we would be absolutely, 100%, f**ked in a month.

Of that I have no doubt. Nor would any Irish person with the slightest understanding of how trade and finance work. They wouldn't even need to have heard of Cuba.

We had a trade war with Britain in the 1930s, a "mild embargo" that lasted on and off for 6 years, with Britain only, not the rest of Europe. Placed on Ireland by Britain for much the same reasons as those that brought the embargo on Cuba.  And rural Ireland nearly went back to the Stone Age. I'm not really exaggerating. My father remembered the time. 

 

 

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[mprach024]

2 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Javi, I understand the blind passion.  One of my best mates in Miami drums it into my ear each week that we catch up for meetings on zoom 

What I find very hard to stomach is that the opinions of Cubans who want a lifting of the embargo are simply dismissed by those living in the US.  These people are just tired of the bullshit, the lines, the harassment, the lack of opportunity, goods, services. They don't need lectures on geopolitics. Right now they need food and money. They need a lifting of remittances and an influx of tourism once CV19 vaccine rolls out.  

 

Rob I don’t think anyone here is not feeling sorrow for the people in Cuba.  I don’t think anyone argues the fact they would be better off if they weren’t under an oppressive communist government.  I don’t think anyone disagrees with the fact it would be best if there was no need for the embargo.  It’s up to them to change it is all, sad as that is.  The Castro Bros had their chance, instead they turned away.  That’ll be last time for a while an American politician sticks their hand out again.  Clearly the Cuban govt is in no hurry to end the embargo, so it’s on the Cuban people now.  Sad, but that’s the state of things.  
 

2 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

to which i would suggest that 60 years of an embargo has not changed anything. why on earth wouldn't considering a change in approach be worthwhile?

You’re right it’s not working for the Cuban people, why are the Cuban people not changing things?  That’s how they got in this position in the first place, they said “enough is enough” and ran out Bautista.  

Do you think it’s not working for the Americans?  It’s working quite fine actually.  “Change your regime, or remain irrelevant.”  Those are the 2 choices.  Btw the USA politicians are satisfied with either option the Cuban people choose. 

2 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

60 years, the cuban govt is suddenly going to say, well, time to go? 

Regime changes only happen one way, see section above

2 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

what seems so bizarre about all this is that it seems that everyone would love to see the same thing - the removal of an oppressive regime and the cuban people given the same rights and responsibilities as people around the globe. we just don't agree on how to get there.

100% agree Ken

 

Don't hate me, I said from the beginning of this thread I want the embargo to end tomorrow.  I’m just telling you that hopes, wishes, and all the blame in the world won’t change this.  Only the Cuban people can now.  

[Ken Gargett]

1 minute ago, mprach024 said:

You’re right it’s not working for the Cuban people, why are the Cuban people not changing things?  That’s how they got in this position in the first place, they said “enough is enough” and ran out Bautista.  

Do you think it’s not working for the Americans?  It’s working quite fine actually.  “Change your regime, or remain irrelevant.”  Those are the 2 choices.  Btw the USA politicians are satisfied with either option the Cuban people choose.  

again i'd suggest that most of these posts deserve books to do them justice. failing that...

agree re two ways to change. and for me, two ways to do it from the internal - armed or peaceful. 

for 'armed', to put that on to the cuban people is tough. you can bet castro and his cronies learnt from their own actions and have made sure that it is not easy for anyone to do the same to them. castro faced a bloated, complacent regime which really did not think there was any chance of a successful revolution (remember that great scene in Godfather 2 when michael sees rebels willing to die, which opened his eyes to what was coming). from the little i have seen, so much harder to have a successful one today. it not easy right from the start - bay of pigs, anyone? today? it is almost like asking the russian people to start an armed revolution against putin. he may well deserve it and the people may want it but the odds?? 

for me, the only way i see it happening is when the people start to realise just what is happening in the rest of the world. when the protests build to include tens of thousands of cubans. when the take peaceful protests to the streets. when it becomes overwhelming. and surely the best way for that is to remove the embargo. if you think otherwise, you have 60 years of evidence to suggest it is time for another way. 

 

looking at the american view, sure, most americans have this in their lowest possible priority bucket. incouding the people who could do something about it. understandably. plenty going on.

but how about a bit of responsibility? if we leave out the last few years where the States deliberately took a more internal stance, the US has always held itself out as the shining light of democracy, the force for good, the white hats, the guys who will defend human rights. and for many of us, flawed they might be, this has been largely true. but this is an instance where the problem was initially caused by the US - it may have had good motives but things are very different today and their actions are what is allowing this regime to remain in power, or at least they play a large role. time to admit that and acknowledge the error. as our friend has said, "Even the smartest of men can learn something new every day". 

i do not see an armed revolution having much chance of success. i do see something like an Arab Spring having a much better chance. and if you want that, left the embargo. otherwise, nothing will change. 

and as for the more general actions of the american govt, well that is ten books, some positive, some less so. and almost certainly best left for another time. 

[mprach024]

3 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

where the problem was initially caused by the US

You had me nodding with you until this statement.  Lol. Sorry but I know there’s not a lot of nuclear war heads that get pointed at Australia, but come on now Ken.  Maybe 60 years is a long time and we should forget, forgive.  I think I said in an earlier post that it’s not yet time.  We are getting closer.  When people who lived through that time aren’t in charge of this country possibly it could change.  By then the regime responsible on the Cuban side will at least be second generation and the actual people responsible lol.  

That’s a big difference not mentioned, we talk about Kennedy.  He’s been gone 58 years, every President after him, so many administrations from the USA in all that time, yet in the Cuba, it’s still the exact same blokes who was there!  Not 10-15 administrations later, it’s the same exact regime!  Don’t forget that, might seem trivial to you guys in Australia, but it’s not to the people who had the weapons pointed at us, you don’t forgive a guy who pointed a gun at your wife very easily.  

 

 

[Ken Gargett]

6 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

You had me nodding with you until this statement.  Lol. Sorry but I know there’s not a lot of nuclear war heads that get pointed at Australia, but come on now Ken.  Maybe 60 years is a long time and we should forget, forgive.  I think I said in an earlier post that it’s not yet time.  We are getting closer.  When people who lived through that time aren’t in charge of this country possibly it could change.  By then the regime responsible on the Cuban side will at least be second generation and the actual people responsible lol.  

That’s a big difference not mentioned, we talk about Kennedy.  He’s been gone 58 years, every President after him, so many administrations from the USA in all that time, yet in the Cuba, it’s still the exact same blokes who was there!  Not 10-15 administrations later, it’s the same exact regime!  Don’t forget that, might seem trivial to you guys in Australia, but it’s not to the people who had the weapons pointed at us, you don’t forgive a guy who pointed a gun at your wife very easily.  

in fairness, i did say that the States may have had good motives at the time. certainly not disputing that at all. but the embargo had nothing to do with nuclear war heads pointed anywhere. the embargo came in, way back in august 1960, i believe. the cuban missile crisis, the first time the States identified missiles in cuba, was two years later. so you can't claim that as a reason.

i am not suggesting anyone forgive. not for an instant. i fully understand the anger that remains. but i am talking about getting rid of the regime. which is presumably what everyone wants. not time yet? all that says to me is that we are happy with the way things are and lets not bother. if people genuinely want this regime, yes the very same one as has been there for so long (and i firmly believe, and i am hardly on my pat with this, that one of the main reasons they are still there, is the embargo), to be removed then something must be done. 

may i ask you, and our friend who claims to know everything, and anyone else, what do you suggest?

you do not want the embargo removed. okay. what then? i don't understand this bit. you can't click your heels three times and send them to kansas. how do you propose to get rid of them? and if you think waiting till they all die is the answer well that seems to be the ultimate way to forgive them and useless anyway as others will step in. 

if someone can offer me a better solution, i'm on board. but i have not seen one. 

[mprach024]

35 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

you do not want the embargo removed. okay. what then?

 

35 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

if people genuinely want this regime

What have you been reading?  Nobody has said this.  Not the Americans chiming in, and not the Cubans themselves chiming in.

We want this regime gone, and then after that the embargo is no longer necessary.  

Revolutions don’t need be with militaries and guns and weapons.  Just look at Gudaffi in Libya, he didn’t get taken down by rebel forces.  

 

35 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

the embargo came in, way back in august 1960

The embargos actions you are looking for was in 62 where it restricted trade.  60 was an election year, Kennedy didn’t take office until ‘61

[Ken Gargett]

14 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

 

What have you been reading?  Nobody has said this.  Not the Americans chiming in, and not the Cubans themselves chiming in.

We want this regime gone, and then after that the embargo is no longer necessary.  

Revolutions don’t need be with militaries and guns and weapons.  Just look at Gudaffi in Libya, he didn’t get taken down by rebel forces.  

with respect, that is an appalling mis-representation of what i said. this is what i said - 

"if people genuinely want this regime, yes the very same one as has been there for so long (and i firmly believe, and i am hardly on my pat with this, that one of the main reasons they are still there, is the embargo), to be removed then something must be done." 

if you remove the brackets etc, and follow the rules of grammar as pertaining to the english language, what i have said is "if people genuinely want this regime to be removed..."

so the exact opposite of what you have suggested i have said. 

and had you read what i have written, you will see i have previously addressed the Arab Spring as a possible model for this to happen. but it isn't just going to happen. for me, the removal of the embargo would be the trigger that could see the start of something like this.

as far as i can see, when i asked how you and others think all this is going to happen, your answer is you want it. well i want to win the lottery but if i don't buy a ticket, it ain't happening. what is your trigger? what starts all this? you need more than wishes. 

 

10 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

The embargos actions you are looking for was in 62 where it restricted trade.  60 was an election year, Kennedy didn’t take office until ‘61

i didn't say it was from kennedy.

in late-ish 1960, not sure exactly when, the embargo stopped exports to cuba of everything bar medicines and food items, i think (arms went under an embargo pre revolution). then very early in 1962, this was expanded to pretty much anything.

so again, pre the cuban missile crisis. again, exactly what i said. am i missing something?

 

[Fuzz]

1 hour ago, mprach024 said:

 

Revolutions don’t need be with militaries and guns and weapons.  Just look at Gudaffi in Libya, he didn’t get taken down by rebel forces.  

 

Uh... what now?   Following the Arab Spring, most of the Libyan Government resigned to side with the protestors, after Gaddafi ordered the army to fire on protesters. NATO supported the rebel militia who attacked and beat back Gaddafi loyalists till he only had control of a small part of western Libya. Eventually, the rebel militia caught and killed Gaddafi and his son.

[mprach024]

2 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

with respect, that is an appalling mis-representation of what i said. this is what i said - 

"if people genuinely want this regime, yes the very same one as has been there for so long (and i firmly believe, and i am hardly on my pat with this, that one of the main reasons they are still there, is the embargo), to be removed then something must be done." 

Yep.  I’ll fall on that sword.  Misread your statement when I first read it.  Apologies, your use of parenthesis overwhelmed my weak brain from following the logic.

 

1 hour ago, Fuzz said:

Uh... what now?   Following the Arab Spring, most of the Libyan Government resigned to side with the protestors, after Gaddafi ordered the army to fire on protesters. NATO supported the rebel militia who attacked and beat back Gaddafi loyalists till he only had control of a small part of western Libya. Eventually, the rebel militia caught and killed Gaddafi and his son.

Yes.  You are correct, but the tensions that led to the momentum that started the dominos falling began with the swarms of protestors.  NATO got involved after there was protests.  It may require similar in Cuba, don’t see why that couldn’t happen in Cuba as well.  Something has to start the fire, and it won’t be a politician in Washington is my point.  So while we all want the current situation to change, it needs start in Cuba.  I guarantee if there was real uprisings (peaceful or otherwise), it’d gain support quickly with American voters.  

[Ken Gargett]

16 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

Yep.  I’ll fall on that sword.  Misread your statement when I first read it.  Apologies, your use of parenthesis overwhelmed my weak brain from following the logic.

i suspected that might be the case but i was on a roll! 

the more i read these posts, the more i think we are all very close to the same thoughts, with the exception that some believe the aim will be achieved by lifting the embargo and some believe the opposite. otherwise, all good. 

[mprach024]

Just now, Ken Gargett said:

i suspected that might be the case but i was on a roll! 

the more i read these posts, the more i think we are all very close to the same thoughts, with the exception that some believe the aim will be achieved by lifting the embargo and some believe the opposite. otherwise, all good. 

No doubt you were on a roll lol.  My mistake in reading, that ones all on me.

We do all agree for sure on one thing, no ones wants the Cuban people to struggle like they are. 

[El Presidente]

14 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

 

the more i read these posts, the more i think we are all very close to the same thoughts, 

What we are is frustrated that the regime has lasted this long and that friends and family are suffering. 

Pisses me off no end. 

 

[Nino]

16 hours ago, ElJavi76 said:

If I can learn you guys something it's this... having these discussions is great. We get to hear diverse viewpoints from all walks of life.  Some people who weren't born in Cuba know more about its history than some who were. 

This is a text conversation with my aunt in Pinar del Rio yesterday: 

*****

Tiita:
Esto esta pelado

Javiel Vazquez:
No hay nada en los mercados?

Tiita:
Nada de comer nada de ponerse

*****

@ElJavi76 - That is exactly what I read and hear from all my Cuban friends, no hay nada, esta todo pelao ... And that coming from Havana - I can imagine how it is in Pinar ..

I am not Cuban but my passion for the island, being Spanish-born, is just as strong and you know it, we share the same opinion and mentality.

Spain after WW II was also under a blockade and a US embargo until the US -Eisenhower- realized it needed an ally vs the Soviet Union and the naval & air bases as forward deterrent and strategic interests won over moral.

I was just reading this comment on US-Spain policies about Cuba and it sums up my feelings :

"On the relationship between Cuba and Spain, Daniel Fried, U.S. Assistant Secretary for European and Eurasian Affairs, has commented in 2007 that:

Spain has enormous influence in Cuba. Hundreds of thousands of Cubans less than a hundred years ago emigrated from Spain to Cuba. You have enormous influence there – direct and indirect and cultural influence. I would hope that influence would be brought to bear for democracy. I'm not saying that Spain has to agree with all American tactics about Cuba. Forget about American tactics. You can agree with them; you can not agree with them; you can agree with some and not others. Forget about it. Don't look at Cuba through the eyes of how you feel about America or the Bush Administration or anything else. Forget about us. Think about the Cuban people and their right to freedom, and think about your own history."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain–United_States_relations

16 hours ago, ElJavi76 said:

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm saying, this is all a matter of where you're seated. I am offering some context as to why there is some blind passion coming from exiled Cubans. It's far more emotional than it is rational. 

Having met Cubans on both sides of the Florida straits I know where you are coming from - it is an abyss that separates them.

15 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

what seems so bizarre about all this is that it seems that everyone would love to see the same thing - the removal of an oppressive regime and the cuban people given the same rights and responsibilities as people around the globe. we just don't agree on how to get there. 

 

100% agree, that is the crux.

13 hours ago, mprach024 said:

Rob I don’t think anyone here is not feeling sorrow for the people in Cuba.  I don’t think anyone argues the fact they would be better off if they weren’t under an oppressive communist government.  I don’t think anyone disagrees with the fact it would be best if there was no need for the embargo.  It’s up to them to change it is all, sad as that is.  The Castro Bros had their chance, instead they turned away.  That’ll be last time for a while an American politician sticks their hand out again.  Clearly the Cuban govt is in no hurry to end the embargo, so it’s on the Cuban people now.  Sad, but that’s the state of things.

You’re right it’s not working for the Cuban people, why are the Cuban people not changing things?  That’s how they got in this position in the first place, they said “enough is enough” and ran out Bautista.  

Do you think it’s not working for the Americans?  It’s working quite fine actually.  “Change your regime, or remain irrelevant.”  Those are the 2 choices.  Btw the USA politicians are satisfied with either option the Cuban people choose. 
 

Don't hate me, I said from the beginning of this thread I want the embargo to end tomorrow.  I’m just telling you that hopes, wishes, and all the blame in the world won’t change this.  Only the Cuban people can now.  

Very accurate assesment - That is also my Mantra speaking to my Cuban friends - it is you and only you who will change the situation and not anyone from abroad coming with an easy fix.

You need to get off your asses and start the change.

Funny things is that most of them, I'd say 95%, don't buy the regime's claim that it is the US blockade/embargo that is keeping Cuba poor and down but it is the "internal" embargo by the regime not giving them a chance that has to be lifted.

So many times in China I have been thinking why Fidel did not open up the economy like China did and gave Cubans a chance to prosper.
Every time I saw Fidel's picture at the White Swan Hotel in Guangzhou I would think why he was so stubbornly stupid not to learn from Deng Xiao Ping ...

9 hours ago, El Presidente said:

What we are is frustrated that the regime has lasted this long and that friends and family are suffering. 

Pisses me off no end. 

 

Same here @Elpresidente - fitting final words for this thread that I am sure we all share.