Royal Robustos Blend

[NSXCIGAR]

14 minutes ago, Tstew75 said:

Well I have 20 years of wine experience, but I humbly know I couldn't make world class wine if the raw materials were dropped in front of me.

Wine making and cigar making aren't even in the same universe. Raw grapes to wine is no doubt extremely complex. Raw leaf into cigars is a 3 minute process.

 

21 minutes ago, Tstew75 said:

Master blender over here. Ok then, I believe you.

It's not that hard. Hire a roller, give them the recipe. There's a reason why there were hundreds of cigar brands in Havana pre-Rev. Anyone could buy the best leaf at the highest asking price and blend and roll their own. I have no doubt I could blend if given the raw leaf. None whatsoever. All you need to know is that the goofballs at Tabacuba can do it passably. 

 

17 minutes ago, Tstew75 said:

Of course. Terroir is crazy crazy important, but that's just the start. So many more pieces to consider.

That's where we differ. With cigars, 98% of the product is the raw materials. It is the Alpha and the Omega. With tobacco you can seriously drop the ball on the back end of the process and still end up with a product that's the best in the world. Because the back end of the process is simple. Wine seems like an equal contribution of every factor. 

[Meklown]

5 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Wine making and cigar making aren't even in the same universe. Raw grapes to wine is no doubt extremely complex. Raw leaf into cigars is a 3 minute process.

I am no wine expert but I know every step needs to be perfect to attain the perfect final product. From the raw material (grapes), the correct fermentation technique needs to be used (yeast, temperature, humidity), to distillation (duration, temperature), to selecting the right wood to building the barrels with.

I believe cigars are the same. Plenty of folks can get tobacco leaf and dry and ferment (using their own formula) and eventually roll it - and produce an astounding cigar, perhaps - but can you make a GR Siglo VI or (insert your own unicorn cigar here)? The answer is a likely no. There are decades (or centuries, in the case of wines) of institutional knowledge that cannot be replaced. 

Is the "new world" product better than the "old world"? Better is a concept that could be debated forever, but everyone can easily agree that it will not be the same. 

[Bijan]

4 minutes ago, Meklown said:

I believe cigars are the same. Plenty of folks can get tobacco leaf and dry and ferment (using their own formula) and eventually roll it - and produce an astounding cigar, perhaps - but can you make a GR Siglo VI or (insert your own unicorn cigar here)? The answer is a likely no. There are decades (or centuries, in the case of wines) of institutional knowledge that cannot be replaced. 

Except the farmer cures the leaf. The leaf receives its first fermentation in the farmer's barn. Then the leaf is fermented again in a warehouse and classified. Then it goes to the factories. Wrapper is processed, binder and filler blended. Then the roller does his job. This is according to my copy of Cuban Cigar Handbook.

Yes if you get raw leaf then it's somewhat like wine in that you have to dry and ferment. But if you get already fermented leaf to blend and roll it's different.

[NSXCIGAR]

14 minutes ago, Meklown said:

 I believe cigars are the same. Plenty of folks can get tobacco leaf and dry and ferment (using their own formula) and eventually roll it - and produce an astounding cigar, perhaps - but can you make a GR Siglo VI or (insert your own unicorn cigar here)? The answer is a likely no. There are decades (or centuries, in the case of wines) of institutional knowledge that cannot be replaced

We're not talking about processing tobacco. "Raw leaf" means fully processed leaf which is done on the fincas. When raw leaf is sold, it's fully processed.

Wine producers process the grapes. Cigar producers typically do not. I say typically since, for example, Cohiba does their second fermentation at El Laguito.

[mprach024]

Oh man......did I call this rat hole or what?! lol

???

[Meklown]

2 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

"Raw leaf" means fully processed leaf which is done on the fincas

Apologies for my misinterpretation!

[Bijan]

12 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

We're not talking about processing tobacco. "Raw leaf" means fully processed leaf which is done on the fincas. When raw leaf is sold, it's fully processed.

Wine producers process the grapes. Cigar producers typically do not. I say typically since, for example, Cohiba does their second fermentation at El Laguito.

Well my book says the farmer's do a first fermentation in their barns. The state buys the leaf at this point, classifies it and ages it in bales for up to two years. Then the factory gets that and does the blending and rolling, and as you say in the case of Cohiba a third fermentation.

I have no knowledge and am going by what is written in my book.

Edit: Seems classification happens at the farm.

Edit 2: @NSXCIGAR unclear where this warehouse for aging is located, I assume this is run by the state, or is it the farmer's purview.

[NSXCIGAR]

13 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

 

 

6 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Well my book says the farmer's do a first fermentation in their barns. The state buys the leaf at this point, classifies it and ages it in bales for up to two years. Then the factory gets that and does the blending and rolling, and as you say in the case of Cohiba a third fermentation.

I have no knowledge and am going by what is written in my book.

That's correct. Aging is done in Tabacuba warehouses but any producer with a shed can do that themselves. 

[BrightonCorgi]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

@BrightonCorgi who's right? 

What's the point of a winery if I can buy the world's best grapes myself?

First, you need to state what are the world's great wines.  To me, that is Europe's old guard be it France, Italy, Spain or Portugal.  Vineyards that have been around 100-200+ years.  California makes great wine no doubt, but if I were to pick my 20 most heralded vineyards, none would be in California.  California is unique as many wines were made like they were in Europe (more to my liking), but that changed in the late 80's.  UC Davis and science led way to a new era of wine making; new world wines.

You simply cannot buy the world's best grapes in the way you could buy the best tobacco (think of Clear Havanas).  There is a time restriction from picking grapes to making wine that precludes this except in areas where cooperatives are quite normal.  This happens in Europe and the US.  Cooperative wines are not like Lafite, DRC, Giacosa, etc... and not meant to be the same.   Especially at price point.  You are "buying the vineyard" and buying the vintage for the finest wines.  If a wine maker from the greatest vineyard goes to another vineyard in another country; the wines won't be the same.  The new wine may be the best expression of the land the new wine from, but never the same.  The same with tobacco. 

Think of all those who left Cuba after the revolution that started tobacco farms and cigar factories in the DR, Nicaragua, Jamaica, etc...  They are using the skill and techniques they did in Cuba, but the end product is just different.  Better or worse is personal opinion, but not the same is without question.  Do you think the Cifuentes family left knowledge when they left Cuba?

 

 

[NSXCIGAR]

11 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

You simply cannot buy the world's best grapes in the way you could buy the best tobacco

I think this is the entire point I was making...

Do you think the Cifuentes family left knowledge when they left Cuba?

Of course they took their knowledge, but knowledge of what? Business? blends? 

Making a brand is easy. It's like a restaurant. Everyone's using the same ingredients but how do you become successful? 

[mprach024]

11 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

You simply cannot buy the world's best grapes in the way you could buy the best tobacco

Wellllll.......you kinda can.  I mean it’s subjective.  Champagne is a great example.  Most of the big name wines from that region buy (or lease) their grapes from local growers.  Whether you like wines like Opus One or agree it’s completely overpriced, it’s still a sought after wine that carries a hefty price tag, and yet Mondavi doesn’t own the vines or grow the grapes that goes into it.  They get those grapes from a famous Vineyard called “To Kalon”, who doesn’t make their own wine.  Mondavi just don’t advertise that, where as Paul Hobbs, Torr, and others make wines also from To Kalon grapes and DO advertise it right on their label.  There’s loads of great vineyards who are just sourcers to wine makers in almost every region.  So hypothetically you COULD get those grapes, you just need to be ready to outbid Mondavi, Moet and Chandon, Louis Roederer, etc when their lease agreements come up.  Good luck.

Just having those grapes doesn’t guarantee a great wine, just like if you give me quality Cuban Medio Tempo doesn’t mean I can roll a good cigar.  That’s where the blenders come in.  Chateau Margaux does anywhere from 23-35 different blends each year before they decide which one is best before they bottle.  

[Bijan]

6 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

Just having those grapes doesn’t guarantee a great wine, just like if you give me quality Cuban Medio Tempo doesn’t mean I can roll a good cigar.  That’s where the blenders come in.  Chateau Margaux does anywhere from 23-35 different blends each year before they decide which one is best before they bottle.

Again you guys know more about wine. But it still seems there's more steps between raw grape and wine, than between ready fermented leaf and cigar. And grapes are harder to transport so you're limited in geography.

[NSXCIGAR]

27 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

Just having those grapes doesn’t guarantee a great wine, just like if you give me quality Cuban Medio Tempo doesn’t mean I can roll a good cigar.  

Rolling and blending isn't that difficult. Rob and Alex were able to do it with the Nudies. Quality leaf is 98% of the battle. These blenders in Cuba aren't magical wizards of flavor discernment. They really just insure the recipe is executed and taste to make sure it's consistent. They get handed the recipe from Tabacuba top brass where two or three people know what leaf comprises what recipes. 

Access to the leaf is the only thing precluding many of us from making CCs far superior to what HSA craps out. That's why zero raw leaf leaves the island out of HSA control and the farmers are required to sell 90% of it, and the 10% they retain is the bottom 10%. The leaf used in customs and shipped to the LCDHs is second-tier leaf (with the possible exception of Monsdales). No one touches it except Tabacuba. 

Every Tomas, Ricardo and Geraldo was setting up brands in Cuba pre-Rev because they could buy the best leaf like anyone else. Again, it's like opening a restaurant. We all have access to the same ingredients, but what do we do with it? How is our marketing? What's our QC like? What are our prices? 

Cuba realized early on that he who controls the leaf controls the industry. 

[mprach024]

3 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Rob and Alex were able to do it with the Nudies

Well if Rob could do it.....?

Your point here has merit, but also a bit counterintuitive.  You’re saying that if the leaf were opened up to other blenders/rollers in the world than we could make better cigars.  I agree with you there.  Thus, showing the value of good blenders.  A competitive market would always bring out better versions, sadly with Cuban tobacco that ain’t happening obviously.

Wine is very different animal, which is why if we rewind what feels like 30+ posts, I thought that was a rough analogy for the point you were making.  Which by the way I still very much agree with.  

[Bijan]

16 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

Your point here has merit, but also a bit counterintuitive.  You’re saying that if the leaf were opened up to other blenders/rollers in the world than we could make better cigars.  I agree with you there.  Thus, showing the value of good blenders.  A competitive market would always bring out better versions, sadly with Cuban tobacco that ain’t happening obviously.

I think his point is they could make better cigars with the same blends since the problem is quality control and not blending.

But independent blends is an interesting question. One rat hole at a time please ?

[mprach024]

7 minutes ago, Bijan said:

I think his point is they could make better cigars with the same blends since the problem is quality control and not blending.

But independent blends is an interesting question. One rat hole at a time please ?

One rat hole, two....three.  Really what’s the difference at this point ?.  It’s like saying one black hole is better than another because one is deeper.

[NSXCIGAR]

23 minutes ago, Bijan said:

I think his point is they could make better cigars with the same blends since the problem is quality control and not blending.

I would say it's blending. If you're likening it to food, I would say the blend is the dish itself. QC would be if it's cooked properly or the ingredients are rotten or the meal is cold when you get it. Obviously, no amount of QC is going to turn a bad recipe good. 

The reason Tabacuba keeps the blends secret is just that. Take the labels off the ingredients and you're cooking blind. Are you putting in Paprika or Cinnamon? And the grow regions are so specific for certain flavors it's challenging to reverse-engineer it. Only the brand owners knew what their brands leaf was. The knowledge is centralized now, but again, it's a major state secret that will probably die with the regime. 

One would have to do an extensive review of leaf from just about every micro-region to get a feasible blend idea. And the volado, seco and ligero grown on the same plant might even go towards different cigars or even brands. That's how unique the blend knowledge Tabacuba has is. 

But that's all the pre-Rev brands did. Some guy would sample as much leaf as possible and come up with a blend or blends, buy the leaf, buy the equipment, set up shop, hire the rollers and go for it. It's exactly what I'd do if I could.

[Bijan]

6 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

The knowledge is centralized now, but again, it's a major state secret that will probably die with the regime. 

Doubt the blend guys are the guys going to the firing squad if it comes to that.

It made it more or less from the brand owners to the state and in that case the brains with the knowledge left. Hard to see it going down unless the top party brass are the ones with the blend notebooks and are more worried about the notebooks than anything else. And again maybe someone could piece it together from the leaf purchases.

But that's mainly speculation on my part.

 

6 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I would say it's blending. If you're likening it to food, I would say the blend is the dish itself. QC would be if it's cooked properly or the ingredients are rotten or the meal is cold when you get it. Obviously, no amount of QC is going to turn a bad recipe good. 

I think we're saying the same thing. I'm saying if you had the recipes (blend) and the leaf you could make a better Cuban cigar because the blends and leaves aren't broken in the CC world it is the quality control we lament.

[NSXCIGAR]

6 hours ago, Bijan said:

Doubt the blend guys are the guys going to the firing squad if it comes to that.

Not saying anyone's going to be executed, just that the individuals that have that info probably wouldn't see the need to tell anyone. Theyd probably be retained by whatever enterprise still has a stake in HSA or who owns the brands and the knowledge would then become proprietary, no different than the Coke formula. 

I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't even written down but passed by memory from person to person, or if not coded with only one or two having the key.

 

6 hours ago, Bijan said:

I think we're saying the same thing. I'm saying if you had the recipes (blend) and the leaf you could make a better Cuban cigar because the blends and leaves aren't broken in the CC world it is the quality control we lament.

Yes, sure. At that point it's just a matter of factory management. Full factory modernization and competition for the best rollers and managers would go a long way.

Also, if production was privatized, the farmers would be allowed to experiment with different strains and processing techniques further increasing selection and competition. 

[BrightonCorgi]

16 hours ago, mprach024 said:

Wellllll.......you kinda can.  I mean it’s subjective.  Champagne is a great example.  Most of the big name wines from that region buy (or lease) their grapes from local growers. 

Just having those grapes doesn’t guarantee a great wine, just like if you give me quality Cuban Medio Tempo doesn’t mean I can roll a good cigar.  That’s where the blenders come in.

Champagne has been like that for a long time, like in my cooperative example.

Blends are subjective and I think you'd have a much higher success rate with the same catalog of tobaccos as Habanos uses.  Obviously knowledge and training is paramount.  It's expected that someone running your cigar production has a CV in the realm of cigar blending.  Blends change over times.  Even for mainstream brands like Montecristo, Partagas, and Upmann.  They do not smoke the same today as they did 30 years ago.  Many reasons; creating a product out of living materials that goes through years of processing is bit of a moving target.

Going back to wines, even the 1er cru's blends change.  Wasn't that long ago where block planting (segregating grape by varietals in the field) was uncommon.

 

16 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I think this is the entire point I was making...

Do you think the Cifuentes family left knowledge when they left Cuba?

Of course they took their knowledge, but knowledge of what? Business? blends? 

Making a brand is easy. It's like a restaurant. Everyone's using the same ingredients but how do you become successful? 

What do you think Cifuentes and everyone else who had their fincas and factories seized took with them?  Are you being coy or naive?  Everything facet of tobacco growing & the cigar business. 

They never made a cigars that were like Habanos as the DR and other regions have their own terrior.  Actually, leaving Cuba opened them to a world of tobacco sourced from around the globe; possibly exceeding what could be done in Cuba.  Cameroon wrappers are pretty special tasting for instance.

[Tstew75]

I appreciate all the points above.

I still maintain that rolling great cigars or making great wines is complex & extremely hard...not to mention most times not even being close to being economically viable. To say otherwise about either is silly.

@NSXCIGAR I'm surprised you think the cigar piece would be so easy- chalk it up to my skeptical nature, but I disagree.