Royal Robustos Blend

[NSXCIGAR]

8 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Habanos across the board is very guarded or vague about the blends of their cigars.  I think they should go the opposite way and really promote the fincas and blends used.  Would help promote agro-tourism.   Just like wine, the best chateau's are not hiding where the grapes are grown, what the blend is, or how the wine is made.

 Guarded and vague is the least of it. It's probably the biggest secret in the entire cigar industry. That information is on par with the formula for Coca Cola and the KFC herbs and spices. Only two or three people probably even know that information. 

I can totally understand why. Blends are like product formulas. If they weren't a secret anyone could make that cigar. Not even the farmers know what cigars their leaf goes towards. It's not like wineries at all. Wines don't typically mix grapes from other wineries.

You also see this with blended whiskies. They might tell you one of the distilleries (for example, Johnnie Walker Green is Talisker-heavy) but they generally won't go into the age of each and the barrel type. The overall recipe is a closely guarded secret.

I'm not exactly sure how Cubatabaco was able to collect blend information at the time of the appropriation of the brands. Obviously, the brand owners weren't going to give it up willingly. They may have gone to the vegueros and asked to see their contracts and figured it out that way, but it still probably took most of the 1960s to get a handle on it.

If the fincas owned a brand I could see full disclosure not being an issue. But that's never been how it works. Marcas bought all their leaf directly from the fincas or cooperatives in bulk. The marcas would then create their blends from leaf originating from multiple fincas or areas within fincas. 

I would imagine contracts were made for all of the specific leaf by the marcas to insure they had a lock on it. Perhaps this is why there's such variation of flavor and strength profiles within a marca. If you buy all the leaf, you'll naturally have a surplus of ligero, seco or volado if only one cigar model or recipe is used, so different models with different strengths or profiles are made to use all the leaf they bought. 

[BrightonCorgi]

32 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Wines don't typically mix grapes from other wineries.

Plenty of wines producers use grapes from multiple vineyards.

Just like the finest wines, it's terrior of the vineyard that makes their wines special.  Plenty of people grow Pinot Noir, but it doesn't taste like Romanée-Conti.

[Baccy]

1 hour ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Plenty of wines producers use grapes from multiple vineyards.

Just like the finest wines, it's terrior of the vineyard that makes their wines special.  Plenty of people grow Pinot Noir, but it doesn't taste like Romanée-Conti.

I wish I knew what Romanee Conti tasted like? Too rich for my blood!

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Plenty of wines producers use grapes from multiple vineyards.

Just like the finest wines, it's terrior of the vineyard that makes their wines special.  Plenty of people grow Pinot Noir, but it doesn't taste like Romanée-Conti.

Plenty, yes, but they're mostly smaller wineries. The large, established wineries typically don't. And in Cuba, tobacco growers and producers have always been separate.

[mprach024]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Plenty, yes, but they're mostly smaller wineries. The large, established wineries typically don't. And in Cuba, tobacco growers and producers have always been separate.

Oh man you may have just opened a can of worms.  Nothing worse than a vinophile ready to take you down a rat hole to share their useless knowledge.  Lol ?

Plenty of large wineries and very well known labels actually source their grapes from multiple vineyards, not just in burgundy, but all over the world.  Some don’t vocalize it, some advertise it right in the name on their label.

[Tstew75]

Let's not get into wine, I'll bore you fellas senseless ?

[NSXCIGAR]

15 hours ago, mprach024 said:

Plenty of large wineries and very well known labels actually source their grapes from multiple vineyards, not just in burgundy, but all over the world.  Some don’t vocalize it, some advertise it right in the name on their label.

I had not been aware of that. To me, that's pretty stupid. Anyone can get those grapes and duplicate that wine? Seems like pretty poor business to me. No wonder there a million different wines. I'm not sure I see the point of even growing your own grapes if you're going to use someone else's...

[BrightonCorgi]

13 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I had not been aware of that. To me, that's pretty stupid. Anyone can get those grapes and duplicate that wine? Seems like pretty poor business to me. No wonder there a million different wines. I'm not sure I see the point of even growing your own grapes if you're going to use someone else's...

It's all about the terrior, the best terrior are not selling their grapes.  Doesn't mean down the street has the same terrior.  Cuba's terrior is special and that's what make Habanos special.  Not the technique they use to cure tobacco or any particular blend.  Plenty of smart "in the know" people have left Cuba over the decades and none of their cigars ended up tasting like a Habanos.  Not that their cigars are bad; just different.

[Tstew75]

54 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I had not been aware of that. To me, that's pretty stupid. Anyone can get those grapes and duplicate that wine? Seems like pretty poor business to me. No wonder there a million different wines. I'm not sure I see the point of even growing your own grapes if you're going to use someone else's...

It's an economics problem. The wine industry is the second most capital-intensive industry in the world behind the oil industry...let that sink in. For that reason, many wineries cant afford to own their own vineyards & instead source grapes from independent growers. That doesn't mean they produce sub-par wine, just different. Once a contract is made, most vineyards will grow/tend the vineyards to the wineries' specific wants. I know many world-class wineries that don't own a single vine...many in European regions such as Burgundy where the Napoleonic code has seen families continually split their land amongst boys until everyone almost owns nothing. As you might expect, wealthy families have always found ways to avoid this. Hence wineries like DRC, Lafite Rothschild, etc

[NSXCIGAR]

55 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

It's all about the terrior, the best terrior are not selling their grapes.

Well, that's my whole point. I suppose instead of "large" wineries I should have said "best". None of the best wineries are using grapes from other vineyards. Unlike the "best" cigar makers where it would be highly unusual to use leaf only from one finca. Wrapper needs alone nearly preclude that.

[Tstew75]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Well, that's my whole point. I suppose instead of "large" wineries I should have said "best". None of the best wineries are using grapes from other vineyards. Unlike the "best" cigar makers where it would be highly unusual to use leaf only from one finca. Wrapper needs alone nearly preclude that.

Incorrect.

Some of the World's best wineries indeed buy all (or some) their grapes.

[Bijan]

25 minutes ago, Tstew75 said:

Incorrect.

Some of the World's best wineries indeed buy all (or some) their grapes.

I don't know wine, so that may be true. But that does conflict with (I realize this is not your statement):

2 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

It's all about the terrior, the best terrior are not selling their grapes.

 

[Tstew75]

Let me try to clarify a bit...it's complicated.

• For every 'great' winery you can name that grows all their own fruit, I can name another 'great' one that doesn't. AKA, owning your own vineyards isn't a prerequisite for being 'great'...though I'll admit it can & does sometimes help in a big way
• It's true that many of the world's best vineyards are owned by wineries that keep all fruit for themselves...but not always
• Some wines by design need the diversity of many sites for blending sake. Champagne is an obvious example

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, Tstew75 said:

Incorrect.

Some of the World's best wineries indeed buy all (or some) their grapes.

@BrightonCorgi who's right? 

What's the point of a winery if I can buy the world's best grapes myself? 

 

[Bijan]

3 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

But, you just said the best grapes aren't sold...

@BrightonCorgi said that

 

[NSXCIGAR]

Just now, Bijan said:

@BrightonCorgi said that

 

Saw that, changed it. 

[Tstew75]

5 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

@BrightonCorgi who's right? 

What's the point of a winery if I can buy the world's best grapes myself? 

 

You already know the answer to this. What if I dropped piles of the best Cuban tobacco leaf at your door & asked you to roll magical cigars. You couldn't, as It doesn't work like that.

Wineries are about history, intimate knowledge, skill, terroir (of winery space), etc. It's not just the quality of raw materials that makes it.

[NSXCIGAR]

Just now, Tstew75 said:

You already know the answer to this. What if I dropped piles of the best Cuban tobacco leaf at your door & asked you to roll magical cigars. You couldn't, as It doesn't work like that.

Wineries are about history, intimate knowledge, skill, terroir (of winery space), etc. It's not just the quality of raw materials that makes it.

Sure I can. I can absolutely hire a roller and blend myself. No problem. Making cigars isn't hard once the leaf is on the table.

Are we not saying the terroir is the single most important thing in either?

[Tstew75]

1 minute ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Sure I can. I can absolutely hire a roller and blend myself. No problem. Making cigars isn't hard once the leaf is on the table.

Are we not saying the terroir is the single most important thing in either?

No...no you couldn't ?

Terroir is just a leg on the chair. It's very very important, but it's not everything.

[NSXCIGAR]

Just now, Tstew75 said:

No...no you couldn't

Excuse me, but I strongly beg to differ.

[Bijan]

1 minute ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Are we not saying the terroir is the single most important thing in either?

I think it's a debate of region vs micro-region in terroir. Is the farm across the street really that different, in terms of either soil or climate? In the case of Cuba, it's a particular microclimate and none of us is going to have access to that leaf.

[NSXCIGAR]

1 minute ago, Tstew75 said:

Terroir is just a leg on the chair. It's very very important, but it's not everything.

Would you say the same about tobacco?

[Tstew75]

1 minute ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Excuse me, but I strongly beg to differ.

Master blender over here. Ok then, I believe you.

Well I have 20 years of wine experience, but I humbly know I couldn't make world class wine if the raw materials were dropped in front of me. Even if I hired the best winemaker known to man. It's takes experience & many right people to be at the same place at the right time. Pretty hard to do.

Just now, NSXCIGAR said:

Would you say the same about tobacco?

Of course. Terroir is crazy crazy important, but that's just the start. So many more pieces to consider.

[Bijan]

Well I don't know wine making or cigars. But from what I imagine in wine you buy raw grapes but in cigars there's a certain amount of processing and you don't get green tobacco.

[Tstew75]

6 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Well I don't know wine making or cigars. But from what I imagine in wine you buy raw grapes but in cigars there's a certain amount of processing and you don't get green tobacco.

Well growing fine wine grapes is much more technical than growing tobacco. I mean levels above. It's crazy.