Light at the end of the tunnel ?

[RedLantern]

No need to feed the sea lions!

[Nino]

3 hours ago, Lunettesman said:

I d like to see a proper study on lockdown that prove the new lockdown trend is effective. 

I d like to understand why it's mandatory for kids above 6 yo to wear masks in france when 80% of contamination are by hands.

I d like to understand how in the world they can make a vaccin within 6 months. And not every day vaccin, an RNA vaccin (once again a first timer).

I d like to understand why france voted a law in December 2019 to be able to lockdown their citizens. 

I d like to understand why there s no flu or pneumonia anymore.

I'd like to understand why no one is talking about china anymore.

I d like to understand why when people question the government they are labeled as conspiracionist.

I d like to understand why between March and October tons of hospital have closed beds when it's the most needed.

There are so many questions that don't seem to have a common sense answer

 

The vaccine is an mRNA vaccine ( small m - big difference ), see :

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2022483

Other than that you sound like the confused driver on the wrong lane of the Autobahn - make that the Autoroute for you - who complains about all those cars coming his way ....

Have a safe life.

 

2 hours ago, RedLantern said:

No need to feed the sea lions!

Yep, you are right ... ?
What a waste of time & energy.

[Fugu]

 

[Ken Gargett]

7 hours ago, Lunettesman said:

I d like to see a proper study on lockdown that prove the new lockdown trend is effective. 

I d like to understand why it's mandatory for kids above 6 yo to wear masks in france when 80% of contamination are by hands.

I d like to understand how in the world they can make a vaccin within 6 months. And not every day vaccin, an RNA vaccin (once again a first timer).

I d like to understand why france voted a law in December 2019 to be able to lockdown their citizens. 

I d like to understand why there s no flu or pneumonia anymore.

I'd like to understand why no one is talking about china anymore.

I d like to understand why when people question the government they are labeled as conspiracionist.

I d like to understand why between March and October tons of hospital have closed beds when it's the most needed.

There are so many questions that don't seem to have a common sense answer

 

for me, commonsense starts by looking at the fact that there have been 1.3 million deaths. so if it takes lockdowns and masks to reverse this, bring them on. surely that is commonsense. 

flu et al, is diminished because the methods used to reduce the virus infections assist in reducing flu and so on. it is still there, just not in usual numbers. it will be back. 

plenty are talking about china. not sure what you read/listen to. i try and read across all sides of politics. obviously the election and the virus are dominating at the moment but that does not mean there is nothing about china. 

people have being giving labels to opponents for centuries. it will ever be thus. doesn't make it true. 

i think you might be misled re the hospitals, but there is one possible explanation. some places have stopped certain types of operations and treatment to focus on the virus and so they may have closed those beds. and are using them to fight the virus. 

talking to friends from finland yesterday. they are doing well, for europe, but they are 100% convinced that sweden got it all so badly wrong. and it has costs thousands of lives. 

[Lunettesman]

23 hours ago, nino said:

The vaccine is an mRNA vaccine ( small m - big difference ), see :

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2022483

Other than that you sound like the confused driver on the wrong lane of the Autobahn - make that the Autoroute for you - who complains about all those cars coming his way ....

Have a safe life.

 

Yep, you are right ... ?
What a waste of time & energy.

I was just asking questions... Opening a debate of ideas. Because when you said I'm confused you re right! I am. How can you not? How can one pretend knowing exactly what's going on when you hear so many different opinions and stories?

[RedLantern]

On 11/10/2020 at 11:08 PM, Lunettesman said:

Sweden didn't need a lockdown to see the light... Neither a vaccine! This is a joke.

 

8 minutes ago, Lunettesman said:

I was just asking questions... Opening a debate of ideas. Because when you said I'm confused you re right! I am. How can you not? How can one pretend knowing exactly what's going on when you hear so many different opinions and stories?

 

You're not "just asking questions," in good faith. You have a fully formed opinion. Go ahead and assert your opinion, add in evidence if you'd like. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning#:~:text=Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning,invitations to engage in debate". 

[vhampl03]

When making public policy, I'm a fan of multi variable analysis... there are tradeoffs in any course of action in response to this thing...

 

 

[Baccy]

The lockdowns have NOT reversed this, nor has wearing masks. Lockdowns only cause a host of other problems. This virus only seems to get worse, at least from a caseload perspective. Lockdown is a term that comes from prisons! This is a very new method of dealing with viruses, and so is the mask thing. Where I live, everyone seems to be wearing masks yet cases continue to rise. I only wear one where it's mandatory. One thing I always do is keep my hands clean and sanitized and don't touch my face. So far it's been effective(knock on wood) I think this is by far the main route of transmission...

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[RedLantern]

15 minutes ago, Baccy said:

The lockdowns have NOT reversed this, nor has wearing masks. Lockdowns only cause a host of other problems. This virus only seems to get worse, at least from a caseload perspective. Lockdown is a term that comes from prisons! This is a very new method of dealing with viruses, and so is the mask thing. Where I live, everyone seems to be wearing masks yet cases continue to rise. I only wear one where it's mandatory. One thing I always do is keep my hands clean and sanitized and don't touch my face. So far it's been effective(knock on wood) I think this is by far the main route of transmission...

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

Per the WHO, respiratory droplets are the main mode of transmission, though transmission through objects and surfaces is possible. 
 

Don’t fall into the fallacy of thinking that masks are worthless because infections continue to rise even in places where usage seems high. This is obviously and imperfect analogy, but think of masks as a somewhat effective form of birth control. Using the somewhat effective method is still going to result in many pregnancies, but far less than would result without any safeguards. Usage of masks (and birth control) is always a less safe method than isolation, but is the best way to mitigate transmission when people choose to be together 

[mprach024]

31 minutes ago, Baccy said:

 

The lockdowns have NOT reversed this

 

What lockdowns?  Haven’t been locked down here for 6 months, and our daily case count matches that correlation directly.  Australia is pretty locked down compared to the USA, we are 8x their total cases since this began every day here now.  Lockdowns won’t stop it, but will slow it, save as many lives as we can until we can get vaccines distributed next year (hopefully).

[Ken Gargett]

48 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

What lockdowns?  Haven’t been locked down here for 6 months, and our daily case count matches that correlation directly.  Australia is pretty locked down compared to the USA, we are 8x their total cases since this began every day here now.  Lockdowns won’t stop it, but will slow it, save as many lives as we can until we can get vaccines distributed next year (hopefully).

excellent point. lockdowns and masks won't cure it but they will slow it and that saves lives. 

[Fuzz]

As much as I don't like lockdowns and restrictions, they have slowed down the infection rates here in Aus. If Melbourne didn't go into lockdown, I'm positive the infection rates would have skyrocketed out of control.

For what it's worth, I was one of those who scoffed a little about how serious this was, back in February. By March, I had completely changed my mind.

[Ej456]

More people should wash their hands after they pump gas and eat a slice of pizza 

[Baccy]

I saw a little 8 yr old girl lose her life due to parental abuse during the lockdown, and the first thing the investigators said was that this would never have happened had there not been a lockdown. No one is going to convince me that they are worthwhile with the wrecked economies, increased suicides, child abuse, drug abuse, lack of preventative medical care, etc... They may temporarily "slow the spread" but it will always come back harder and stronger. Just look at Europe...

[vhampl03]

It’s completely valid to question the cost/benefit of lockdowns, as we do everything else in life.

Reasonable, intelligent people have pointed to the collateral damage from lockdowns (foregone healthcare, reduced education, lost businesses, as well as social and emotional problems) and have raised valid questions.  Why are some types of large gatherings allowed while houses of worship are strictly limited?  And why does it seem that every country that wasn’t hit hard initially sees a spike once lockdowns ease?  (do lockdowns not avoid but rather delay the virus? and how much time is needed to prepare a community, country, etc?)

And of course our politicians beclown themselves with lockdown policies they impose but won’t abide by themselves....sigh

No easy solutions here but my view is that this thing is here to stay and we need to make adjustments but also return to living our lives as “normally” as possible (ie, protect the vulnerable, get vaccinated when available,  wash hands, wear masks when required/beneficial, stay home when sick, etc, but also allow kids to be in school,  allow businesses to reopen with safe guards, stop with the prohibitions on Thanksgiving family gatherings, etc).   This is going to be a long road and “normal” is a long ways off...

Anyway - YMMV....

[El Presidente]

10 minutes ago, Baccy said:

I saw a little 8 yr old girl lose her life due to parental abuse during the lockdown. 

The virus didn't abuse the child.  Delinquent parents did that. 

We are 12 months away (at least) from a Post Event Review. Perhaps wait until then to assess. 

Right now, best practice? Look at those countries who have the lowest death rates per million. 

 

[Ken Gargett]

3 hours ago, Baccy said:

The lockdowns have NOT reversed this, nor has wearing masks. Lockdowns only cause a host of other problems. This virus only seems to get worse, at least from a caseload perspective. Lockdown is a term that comes from prisons! This is a very new method of dealing with viruses, and so is the mask thing. Where I live, everyone seems to be wearing masks yet cases continue to rise. I only wear one where it's mandatory. One thing I always do is keep my hands clean and sanitized and don't touch my face. So far it's been effective(knock on wood) I think this is by far the main route of transmission...

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

no offence but you could hardly be more wrong.

below is a detailed article on the impact of social distancing/lockdowns etc, in fighting the spanish flu pandemic after WWI. it is from national geographic so, as far as i am aware, not a politically motivated publication. it shows how important such measures were. the many graphs here will provide evidence of the great many lives saved. 

as for masks, well, below are a few pics from the spanish flu - masks. there are thousands more photos that would work equally well but seems little point. 

so to suggest that this is "very new" is utterly false. such actions have been around and been effective for more than a century. 

"I only wear one where it's mandatory.". ever thought that attitude might be part of the problem? in saying that, i am not having a go at you personally (i know it is a widespread attitude). unfortunately, in a number of countries where the virus is prevalent, politicians have not stepped up. so while you and others might be following the guidelines set by these politicians, please remember that they are a very long way from infallible. and i mean that of all politicians, whatever stripe they wear. they are human (usually only just). all sides have made decisions (and i am looking at local elections here as well as those offshore) which have been based more on what is best for the politician (in other words, what they think will get them votes) than on what is best for the people. nothing new there. 

listen to the scientists, doctors, health officials and ignore politicians (and that could be said about so much more than just the viruss). 

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/03/how-cities-flattened-curve-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic-coronavirus/#close

 

[Baccy]

31 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

The virus didn't abuse the child.  Delinquent parents did that. 

We are 12 months away (at least) from a Post Event Review. Perhaps wait until then to assess. 

Right now, best practice? Look at those countries who have the lowest death rates per million. 

 

That's very true but, she would have been in school, and doing normal activities where other adults would have seen it and put a stop to it... She would have easily survived this virus, but never the abuse. She is hardly alone either.

[Ken Gargett]

16 minutes ago, Baccy said:

That's very true but, she would have been in school, and doing normal activities where other adults would have seen it and put a stop to it... She would have easily survived this virus, but never the abuse. She is hardly alone either.

with respect, you cannot possibly know that. what is your explanation for the tragedy of so many abused children, before the virus emerged? why have "other adults" not stopped all those instances? 

to suggest no virus/no abuse and virus/abuse is a ridiculous leap. and one that is sadly most certainly not borne out by facts and experience. 

[Baccy]

3 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

with respect, you cannot possibly know that. what is your explanation for the tragedy of so many abused children, before the virus emerged? why have "other adults" not stopped all those instances? 

to suggest no virus/no abuse and virus/abuse is a ridiculous leap. and one that is sadly most certainly not borne out by facts and experience. 

They often DO... at least around here. Then CPS steps in and takes the child away from the abusive parents. The investigators said that as well. I know I'm not alone in thinking this way. Of course abuse happens always but it often gets stopped before it results in death. Hey man it's cool. We can disagree. I'm fine with that...

[CaptainQuintero]

5 hours ago, VKUTT said:

 

STAY SAFE EVERYONE. VKUTT. ❤

   I think to be honest the news isn't being as plain with the facts as they should be. In countries experiencing a second wave (Some haven't even finished with their first wave) the news isn't even mentioning the fact that healthcare systems are in the verge of going under. 

  My wife is an ED nurse and in the first wave they were at breaking point, some were doing 13 hour shifts 18 days in a row without breaks. They coped because the ones dying were mainly those who were already very frail. Ie they were dying so fast that they weren't clogging up the system. This time round it's people who have just a few or even only one health issue. Like being overweight, not just things like weak hearts or COPD. They're requiring a huge amount more time to care for. Staff are going off in droves with the illness, latest count was 350+ out of 2000. ED department used to running on near 20 nurses are down to 8. The last time she left work the waiting room was full with 40 people shoulder to shoulder as there was no room to social distance, 11 ambulances were queued up outside.

  The measures, like lockdowns, being taken aren't to protect lives, they're to keep the healthcare systems and the staff from collapsing so it's there for when the virus goes away. There isn't an economic recovery if there's no place to go when you have a car crash or break your wrist. 

  I got a mild dose back in March and was lucky enough to not need hospitalisation, the perks of having an ED nurse for a wife! But I've been laid out for the best part of 8 months from the fallout and I've zero prior health conditions, perfect BMI etc. I lost the best part of 2 stone in weight. I know that my parents wouldn't have survived those first few weeks of what I had and they're as healthy as any 65 year old can be.

 I'm all in favour of putting emphasis on the economy but the idea that the healthy are safe from this is insane. Yes the percentages are in your favour if you are in perfect health, but who in the West are? Before anything else we lead the world in obesity rates, it isn't a suprise to see the rates of deaths in the fattest nations compared to the most slim.

  The economy is important yes, but there isn't an economy if your country doesn't have any healthcare. You don't contribute to the economy if you're out of action for 6 months recovering. It's not a great place to be if you didn't catch it or didn't have any complications but you're now missing parents, grandparents, brothers or sisters.

  I don't even think you can particularly blame people who have conflicting views, unless you work or have a close family member working in the healthcare system on the front lines then you just aren't exposed to the truths of this. Once again the news has completely failed in its job. The me culture we live in now is a hard thing to fight against. There's a bitter dose of reality coming to every home at some point with this no matter what views or leanings you've relied on

[Cigar Surgeon]

I've avoided all four pages of this discussion so far but I just want to respond to a throw away comment above about the virus coming back.

The virus isn't coming back, the virus never left. From the perspective of Canada the problem is that everyone has become complacent in their attitudes and behavior. I realize this has been going on for some time, but it's no less deadly now than it was back in March.

I can't tell you the number of restaurant, bar, and multi person hangouts I've had to decline over the past few months, while at the same time wondering if those people understand the dangers they're putting themselves and others at risk. 

Everyone up here needs to understand that mask wearing, social distancing, hand washing, all these measures are going to have to be followed closely until such time a sizeable portion of the population has been vaccinated. At this rate I don't see how that's going to happen before another 18-24 months.

[Hammer Smokin']

8 hours ago, Baccy said:

They often DO... at least around here. Then CPS steps in and takes the child away from the abusive parents. The investigators said that as well. I know I'm not alone in thinking this way. Of course abuse happens always but it often gets stopped before it results in death. Hey man it's cool. We can disagree. I'm fine with that...

Remember, just because you aren't alone in a line of thinking doesn't validate the thought. You have received some logical responses as a result. 

Hope you take those responses and reconsider your position. 

[Fugu]

I think Ken is making a valid point in stating:

15 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

"I only wear one where it's mandatory.". ever thought that attitude might be part of the problem?

Individual responsibility? 

[cfc1016]

Can we please just lock this thread? It's not civil discourse. It's sea-lioning and trolling. Every logical, fact-based reply is being countered with conspiracy theories, misinformation, whataboutery, and "Q" propaganda. Well meaning parties - such as Ken - are giving genuine responses, trying to speak reason, in a civil manner. It's falling on deaf ears.

This thread may not be explicitly about us politics, but it has become an example of american politicization of covid. It's not cool. Mods, please, shut it down.